Leafs All-Time Team Vote: Second Line Right Wing

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Leafs All-Time Team Vote: Second Line Centre
With the Leafs Centennial Season coming up, I think it'd be interesting to see who Leafs fans would vote for when creating an All-Time team. After 100 years and 1000's of players, many greats have donned the blue and white and represented the city of Toronto. Who makes the cut and who doesn't when it comes to creating a team of the greatest Leafs ever?

Rules:

1. Players must have played a minimum of three seasons for the Toronto Maple Leafs.

2. Players must be voted on for their respective positions, so the polls will only feature players in their natural positions (defensemen exempt, fretting over left D vs right D is a bit much).

3. Consider what these players did in their time as Leafs. The rest of their career doesn't matter.

Current options for Leafs All-Time #2 RW:

George Armstrong

Ace Bailey

Gordie Drillon

Ron Ellis

Phil Kessel

Lanny McDonald

Alex Mogilny

Rick Vaive



(If you have any player suggestions, just let me know in a post).

Current All-Time Roster:

Mahovlich-Sundin-Conacher
(#2LW)-Gilmour-(#2RW)
(#3LW)-(#3C)-(#3RW)
(#4LW)-(#4C)-(#4RW)

Salming-Horton
(#3D)-(#4D)
(#5D)-(#6D)

Bower
(#2G)

Click to read more...

 

[Mess]

George Armstrong played 21 seasons from 1949-1971 and is #5 overall in scoring and captained the Leafs to Stanley Cups and scored the last (EN) goal to secure the last Leafs Cup in 1967.

 

[Lauro]

Gordie Drillon played 6 of his 7 NHL seasons for the Leafs before joining the Royal Canadian Air Force in WWII. He scored 244 pts in 262 games for Toronto, winning the NHL scoring title in 1938, and was chosen for the First All-Star team twice and Second All-Star team once. He won a Stanley Cup during the 1941–42 season.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Kessel, had a great peak.

 

[67Cup]

This is actually a tough one. You can tell from my Avatar that I harbour no negative feelings towards George Armstrong. The truth is, however, that he was a great leader but definitely not a great player. It would be an underestimate to call him a journeyman but it would likewise be a stretch to call him a star. Four times in his long career he did score 20 goals, in an era when that was the mark of a good player, though not necessarily a star. But most of the time, he was a solid, workmanlike performer who got the most out of somewhat limited gifts. I would put him on a Leafs all time team as an honourable mention for his leadership role but clearly not for his abilities.

Gordie Drillon is also an interesting case. Lauro is quite right that he won the Art Ross and was a two time first all star and a second all star once. He is also correct that Drillon was on the 1942 Stanley Cup winner.... With an enormous asterisk. That was the season the Leafs came from 3-0 down to win the Cup, the only time in NHL history that has happened. What needs to be added is that the turning point in the series was.... when Hap Day benched Gordie Drillon and Bucko Mcdonald. I don't think that Cup win can be totted up in the plus column for Drillon. Drillon was in some ways the Phil Kessel of his era, at least Phil Kessel untile this years playoffs, a somewhat one dimensional offensive dynamo. Still, there is no gainsaying Drillon's production.

Perhaps the all time second best was Lanny McDonald with a second all star nomination and three forty plus goal seasons in a row as a Leaf. He would have had more nominations, IMO, if he hadn't been playing the same position as all time greats Guy Lafleur and then Mike Bossy. Trading him away to make a point about who was in charge was one of the stupider things the franchise has ever done. I feel a little uncomfortable, however, voting for someone who is best known as the star of another team, however. He is more a Flame than a Leaf IMO.

Tough one!

Several years ago, I put up a series of posts on this board laying out in detail what I thought was the all time Leafs team. (I haven't gone looking to see if I could find those posts.). IIRC, I pulled a bit of a fast one with the second line right wing. I moved Mats Sundin there using as justification the fact that he had played that position for the Swedish national team. But that's not a possibility here.

 

[BayStreetBully]

This is where you can start to get creative. I think quite a few players could make a case here if you were constructing a lineup based on talent rather than accomplishments.

However, I'd still go with Armstrong. He's the only one with more than 1 cup, and he captained the greatest Leafs team to 4 of them. Only Ellis comes close to him in length of tenure. It's a shame Bailey's career was cut short, but, as with Barilko, that's part of the Leafs' story.

After Armstrong, I'd look at the more recent Leaf wingers, and arguably more talented, but for now, it's the Chief first.

 

[Brewsky]

Armstrong on a line with Gilmour will certainly not lack character.

 

[TLeafsFan]

Its no one if not George Armstrong.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

I'm a Mogilny homer so I chose him.

 

[Mess]

This is actually a tough one. You can tell from my Avatar that I harbour no negative feelings towards George Armstrong. The truth is, however, that he was a great leader but definitely not a great player. It would be an underestimate to call him a journeyman but it would likewise be a stretch to call him a star. Four times in his long career he did score 20 goals, in an era when that was the mark of a good player, though not necessarily a star. But most of the time, he was a solid, workmanlike performer who got the most out of somewhat limited gifts. I would put him on a Leafs all time team as an honourable mention for his leadership role but clearly not for his abilities.

The Chief was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1975.

Armstrong was named as captain of the Leafs to start the 1957-58 season and was called by Conn Smythe "the best captain, as a captain, the Leafs have ever had." Smythe later honoured his captain by naming one of his horses Big Chief Army, something Smythe had done on only two other occasions for Charlie Conacher and Jean Beliveau.

 

[Dreakmur]

Kessel, had a great peak.

If you're going to vote for a guy who scored and did nothing else, there's no argument for Phil Kessel over Gordie Drillon.

 

[DirkStraun]

Voted Lanny. My Brain knows it's George but my heart went with Lanny. He was my Dad's favorite player. I remember watching Calgary win the cup with my Dad when I was a kid and how happy he was that Lanny won it.

 

[Dreakmur]

This one is a bit tricky, since all the best guys has such ahort careers. Lanny, Phil, and Gordie Drillon all had pretty good peaks, but lasted only about 5 years. How do you measure that against George Armstrong, who was an excellent all-round player, but not a star, for 20 years?

I have a hard time ignoring all the non-offensive things Armstrong brought to the table - leadership, defensive play, board work, penalty killing - so I'll vote for him.

 

[67Cup]

Note to OP. Please put this additional name on the poll for the next round of RW's

Babe Dye

I am going to argue that this multi sport athlete was the second best RW all time in the franchise. I would like to see if I can get anyone to agree that he belongs somewhere on the all time team for the club.

Only a few folks on the Board are interested in the early history of the franchise and fewer still in the first 15 years when the team first bore no name at all, then the Arenas and then the St. Pats. The only thing we recognize from the era are the 1918 and 1922 Stanley Cups. There were, however, several great stars in the period, now almost forgotten.

One was the greatest goal scorer of the era. In fact, Legends of Hockey, the Hall of Fame connected history site, says he has the highest goals to game played ratio in the history of the game. I wouldn't want to claim that distinction myself without a little further research but he certainly was a deadly sniper. (I have also seen that he had the highest ratio until a player named Gretzky came along.) Dye was small, at 5'8" and 150 pounds, had the reputation of a weak skater, but his stickhandling and deadly shot made him the most dangerous offensive player of the era.

He played before the naming of all star teams and even before a number of the league's prestigious trophies were established but he did lead the league in points scoring twice. He led the league in goal scoring four times, the last time after the Pats sold him to the new Chicago franchise and was second in goals two seasons. Like many of the players of the early years, a serious injury basically ended his career. He broke his leg in training camp in 1927 and only scored one more goal in the final 58 gamees of his career, spread out over several seasons. (That's one of the reasons I wonder about the claim of the all time highest goals per game played ratio. Still, he had 176 goals in his first 170 games, which is amazing, even for an era when stars played almost the whole game.)

Dye also led the St. Pats to the 1922 Stanley Cup, scoring 9 goals in 5 games. His 38 goals in 30 games in 1924-25 set a franchise record which lasted until the Big M scored 48 in 1960-61, in 70 games.

Here's the question: how many Leafs, other than Dye and Charlie Conacher, were the most dangerous goal scorers of their era? I think the answer is none.

In addition, Dye played halfback for the Toronto Argonauts and minor league baseball ascending as high as the International League, then as now the step immediately below the majors. It is said that Hall of Fame manager of the Philadelphia A's (not a typo, that's where they were in that era) Connie Mack offered Dye the immense sum of $25,000 to concentrate on baseball.

Folks, I submit that in the centennial year of the franchise, the superstar of the early years belongs on our all time team.

 

[Dreakmur]

Note to OP. Please put this additional name on the poll for the next round of RW's

Babe Dye

I am going to argue that this multi sport athlete was the second best RW all time in the franchise. I would like to see if I can get anyone to agree that he belongs somewhere on the all time team for the club.

Only a few folks on the Board are interested in the early history of the franchise and fewer still in the first 15 years when the team first bore no name at all, then the Arenas and then the St. Pats. The only thing we recognize from the era are the 1918 and 1922 Stanley Cups. There were, however, several great stars in the period, now almost forgotten.

One was the greatest goal scorer of the era. In fact, Legends of Hockey, the Hall of Fame connected history site, says he has the highest goals to game played ratio in the history of the game. I wouldn't want to claim that distinction myself without a little further research but he certainly was a deadly sniper. (I have also seen that he had the highest ratio until a player named Gretzky came along.) Dye was small, at 5'8" and 150 pounds, had the reputation of a weak skater, but his stickhandling and deadly shot made him the most dangerous offensive player of the era.

He played before the naming of all star teams and even before a number of the league's prestigious trophies were established but he did lead the league in points scoring twice. He led the league in goal scoring four times, the last time after the Pats sold him to the new Chicago franchise and was second in goals two seasons. Like many of the players of the early years, a serious injury basically ended his career. He broke his leg in training camp in 1927 and only scored one more goal in the final 58 gamees of his career, spread out over several seasons. (That's one of the reasons I wonder about the claim of the all time highest goals per game played ratio. Still, he had 176 goals in his first 170 games, which is amazing, even for an era when stars played almost the whole game.)

Dye also led the St. Pats to the 1922 Stanley Cup, scoring 9 goals in 5 games. His 38 goals in 30 games in 1924-25 set a franchise record which lasted until the Big M scored 48 in 1960-61, in 70 games.

Here's the question: how many Leafs, other than Dye and Charlie Conacher, were the most dangerous goal scorers of their era? I think the answer is none.

In addition, Dye played halfback for the Toronto Argonauts and minor league baseball ascending as high as the International League, then as now the step immediately below the majors. It is said that Hall of Fame manager of the Philadelphia A's (not a typo, that's where they were in that era) Connie Mack offered Dye the immense sum of $25,000 to concentrate on baseball.

Folks, I submit that in the centennial year of the franchise, the superstar of the early years belongs on our all time team.

He's another guy that had a great peak with the leafs, but wasn't here very long.

 

[67Cup]

Dye had 7 seasons with the St. Pats, plus the only six games in the final season of his career. He also had two seasons with the Hawks and one with NY Americans, two of those post injury. He was chiefly a Toronto player.

By the way, he was a career 300 plus hitter in baseball.

 

[Damisoph]

I picked Vaive because 50 goal seasons and he was my favourite before Wendel was drafted.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Note to OP. Please put this additional name on the poll for the next round of RW's

Babe Dye

I am going to argue that this multi sport athlete was the second best RW all time in the franchise. I would like to see if I can get anyone to agree that he belongs somewhere on the all time team for the club.

Only a few folks on the Board are interested in the early history of the franchise and fewer still in the first 15 years when the team first bore no name at all, then the Arenas and then the St. Pats. The only thing we recognize from the era are the 1918 and 1922 Stanley Cups. There were, however, several great stars in the period, now almost forgotten.

Good call. I tried reading about Reg Noble and Babe Dye, but it's hard to learn anything about our earliest stars. You actually brought Harry Cameron to my attention, otherwise I'd never have known. Historically, I could see why the Leafs had glossed over the Arenas and St. Pats era in the past, but there's no reason why we shouldn't claim those eras and their stars as our own.

 

[Dreakmur]

Good call. I tried reading about Reg Noble and Babe Dye, but it's hard to learn anything about our earliest stars. You actually brought Harry Cameron to my attention, otherwise I'd never have known. Historically, I could see why the Leafs had glossed over the Arenas and St. Pats era in the past, but there's no reason why we shouldn't claim those eras and their stars as our own.

Noble is tough to place here. He's certainly better than somebody like Wendel Clark, but he played all 3 forward pisitions and defense, so where do you put him?

 

[BayStreetBully]

Noble is tough to place here. He's certainly better than somebody like Wendel Clark, but he played all 3 forward pisitions and defense, so where do you put him?

I don't know where I'd put him, but I can't see anyone voting for him anyway. I don't think I could vote for him either, not knowing enough about him. All I can do is appreciate him with the distinction of being possibly our first ever superstar.

 

[LeafGrief]

Alex Mogilny only played 176 regular season and 39 playoff games in a Leafs uniform. He was a great player but to call him a Leaf great is a stretch. Andreychuk isn't even on the LW voting list.

 

[Lauro]

Good call on Babe Dye. He was ranked 40th best winger on the history board (11th Conacher, 50th Drillon).

 

[67Cup]

I haven't visited the History part of the board. I should probably take a look at that area. I think it would interest me a great deal.

Agreed that the franchise has tended to ignore the No Names/Arenas/St. Pats era but if they want to celebrate this year as a centennial, they do have to take note of those years. We might even take a look back at the predecessor Blueshirts. The first Stanley Cup of the franchise, 1918, was basically with the players from the Blueshirts taken over into the new NHL team when the owner of the former Blueshirts was frozen out of the fledgling NHL.

To change direction slightly, some board members might be interested in a novel about the early years of hockey, with a dash of Canadian politics of the era. Hockey Night in the Dominion of Canada by Eric Zweig. It's an easy read and gives a feel for the era and for the role of hockey in the history of the country.

https://www.amazon.ca/Hockey-Night-Dominion-Canada-Novel/dp/1895555078

 

[Dreakmur]

The Blueshirts franchise was different from the Maple Leafs.

The NHA owners wanted to get rid of Toronto owner Eddie Livingston, but they could not kick him out. Every other team dropped out of the NHA and reformed their own league called the NHL and creates their own Toronto franchise owned by the Toronto Arena Company.

Anything a player did in the NHA was for a different team, and should not count.

 

[67Cup]

The Blueshirts franchise was different from the Maple Leafs.

The NHA owners wanted to get rid of Toronto owner Eddie Livingston, but they could not kick him out. Every other team dropped out of the NHA and reformed their own league called the NHL and creates their own Toronto franchise owned by the Toronto Arena Company.

Anything a player did in the NHA was for a different team, and should not count.

Sure enough, hence my line about the "owner of the former Blueshirts frozen out of the fledgling NHL". But the players of the new NHL team were, in fact, largely the Blueshirts of the previous season in the now effectively defunct NHA. They proceeded to win the Cup.

It was a new franchise and I have no complaints about celebrating the centennial this year. But there was also continuity. They changed the name of the league and got rid of the owner but pretty much kept the team.

Harold Ballard was not the only problem owner in Toronto hockey history!