Leafs All-Time Team Vote: Second Line Centre

[Dreakmur]

And Keon and sittler played on stanley cup winning teams, which makes their scoring look more impressive.

Sittler did not play for a Cup winner in Toronto.

 

[Jeypic]

Sittler did not play for a Cup winner in Toronto.

He played for a leafs team that scored way more goals per year then dougies leafs did. So again, explain why dougies scoring was less impressive?

 

[tp71]

nvm.

 

[67Cup]

To be strictly accurate, Apps started out in an eight team league. First the Montreal Maroons merged with the Canadiens and then several years later, the New York Americans folded. "Original Six" is actually a misnomer. It should be the "Contracted Six."

There had also been a number of other short lived teams, like the original Senators but not in Apps time.

 

[Dreakmur]

He played for a leafs team that scored way more goals per year then dougies leafs did. So again, explain why dougies scoring was less impressive?

I don't think either Sittler nor Gilmour should be among the top four centres here, so I'm not sure how you think I'm taking up one against the other.

But, since you seem to really want to have the Sittler vs Gilmour debate.....

Doug Gilmour put up 1.15 points per game over his 393 games as a Leaf.
Darryl Sittler put up 1.09 points per game over his 844 games as a Leaf.

Sittler scored as essentially the same rate over more than twice the games. I'll take the guy who sustains his production any day, but for the sake of argument, lets level the comparison a bit. Gilmour played 4 full seasons and 2 partial seasons, so lets call that 5 seasons. Why not look at Sittler's 5 year offensive peak? 1976 to 1980, Sittler scored 491 points in 373 games. That's a 1.31 points per game average, which is clearly better than what Gilmour did over his peak with the Leafs.

 

[Jeypic]

Kessel was not a good example. Even if you look at just regular season offense, he's not a great Leaf.



It is embarrassing. Do you think Montreal Canadiens fans would vote Saku Koivu as their best centre of all time? Of course they wouldn't. They know their history.

As for PPG, that's a bad measure, since league scoring averages fluctuated so much. Gilmour, as an example, played his peak as a Leaf in an extremely high scoring era, which makes his scoring accomplishments look more impressive.

Gilmours ppg were on a leafs team that scored less then the leafs teams of previous eras. His scoring accomplishments are as impressive as they look.

 

[socko]

I have trouble voting for people outside of the golden age of hockey, the Gretzky and Lemieux years. I simply don't think hockey was as good before or after. I miss the creativity, scoring, and physical play of those days. Alas, the Leafs were not very good those years except for a few years where Dougie Gilmour shined. So I'm partial to those years.

 

[tp71]

Gilmours ppg were on a leafs team that scored less then the leafs teams of previous eras. His scoring accomplishments are as impressive as they look.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

The 92-93 season remains the 18th highest scoring season ever. 90-92 are #22 and #23.

The seasons that scored higher as per league averages are the entire 80s, seasons from 1917-1922, and 43-44 and 44-45 (mostly due to replacement players due to WWII). What teams outscored Gilmours exactly?

 

[BayStreetBully]

These polls aren't supposed to be the end all be all of greatest Leafs players ever. It's just a fun series of threads to pass the time during the dreaded summer time on HF.

It also gives fans an opportunity to learn about past greats they haven't seen. I didn't know how great of a player Apps was considered to be till I started these, which is why he's got my vote now. Reading posts from the older guys on here like Mess, Ulf, 67Cup and a few others who I can't recall (but are no less relevant) about our past players is really interesting. We'll certainly be hearing about all of these guys when the Centennial festivities begin, so why not get a head start on discussing our history and players?

Sure, at the end of all this these results won't be the best judge of who the Leafs greatest players are, but the majority of fans on here are sub-30, and I doubt there are many on here that would be considered hockey scholars. It's all in good fun.

Kudos for making these polls. I agree, it's a great way to discuss these players who will eventually be talked about by the Leafs themselves over the next year. I'm fine with posters voting for their personal favourite. Not everyone has the time or desire to learn about our former stars in depth.

30's - Charlie Conacher, Busher Jackson, Joe Primeau, Ace Bailey, King Clancy, Hap Day, Red Horner

40's - Syl Apps, Ted Kennedy, Max Bentley, Jimmy Thomson, Gus Mortson, Bill Barilko, Turk Broda

60's - George Armstrong, Dave Keon, Red Kelly, Frank Mahovlich, Bob Pulford, Dick Duff, Tim Horton, Allan Stanley, Carl Brewer, Bobby Baun, Johnny Bower

70's - Darryl Sittler, Lanny McDonald, Borje Salming

90's/00's - Wendel Clark, Doug Gilmour, Mats Sundin, Curtis Joseph, Ed Belfour

I think if you recognize those names and can appreciate that they once did great things for us, you are in good shape. You don't necessarily have to know what they did.

 

[MajorLeaf]

Syl Apps was an amazing Leaf for sure. I have to give this one to Keon though, he was a warrior helping the Leafs to multiple Stanley Cups.

The fact Keon sacrificed a lot to fight crooked Ballard and all he went through in his last few years of playing just makes him the obvious choice.

Both Keon and Sittler faced off against Ballard so there is great respect for both players, but Keon just did so much for the organization during his time with the Leafs and he gets my vote.

 

[Jeypic]

I don't think either Sittler nor Gilmour should be among the top four centres here, so I'm not sure how you think I'm taking up one against the other.

But, since you seem to really want to have the Sittler vs Gilmour debate.....

Doug Gilmour put up 1.15 points per game over his 393 games as a Leaf.
Darryl Sittler put up 1.09 points per game over his 844 games as a Leaf.

Sittler scored as essentially the same rate over more than twice the games. I'll take the guy who sustains his production any day, but for the sake of argument, lets level the comparison a bit. Gilmour played 4 full seasons and 2 partial seasons, so lets call that 5 seasons. Why not look at Sittler's 5 year offensive peak? 1976 to 1980, Sittler scored 491 points in 373 games. That's a 1.31 points per game average, which is clearly better than what Gilmour did over his peak with the Leafs.

And in those 5 years, sittlers leafs scored 1437 times, it took gilmours leafs 6 years to reach 1414 goals. My quarrel with you was never about who was better. It was about you discounting Gilmours scoring accomplishments because of the era he played in. Sittler played on a higher scoring team. Not gilmour.

 

[67Cup]

Yeah, Apps and people like him only fought against Hitler. That's no comparison to Harold Ballard.

 

[Jeypic]

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

The 92-93 season remains the 18th highest scoring season ever. 90-92 are #22 and #23.

The seasons that scored higher as per league averages are the entire 80s, seasons from 1917-1922, and 43-44 and 44-45 (mostly due to replacement players due to WWII). What teams outscored Gilmours exactly?

Basically the majority of leafs teams from 1975-1985 out scored the leafs team of 92/93 (dougies leafs best year). So... Sittlers era.
http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/toronto-maple-leafs-8490.html

 

[tp71]

Basically the majority of leafs teams from 1975-1985 out scored the leafs team of 92/93 (dougies leafs best year). So... Sittlers era.
http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/toronto-maple-leafs-8490.html

But the league average was higher in 92-93 than Sittler's era. So in Gilmour's best year it was easier to score league wide.

 

[Dreakmur]

And in those 5 years, sittlers leafs scored 1437 times, it took gilmours leafs 6 years to reach 1414 goals. My quarrel with you was never about who was better. It was about you discounting Gilmours scoring accomplishments because of the era he played in. Sittler played on a higher scoring team. Not gilmour.

I never made the claim that Gilmour played on a higher scoring team. Somebody said he played in an era where scoring wa tougher, which was not true at all.

 

[tp71]

I never made the claim that Gilmour played on a higher scoring team. Somebody said he played in an era where scoring wa tougher, which was not true at all.

That's what I'm trying to say as well.

 

[Dreakmur]

That's what I'm trying to say as well.

equally true for both guys though.

Keon played in a normal era, but his team was held back offensively by their system. Those 60s leafs were comparable to the dead puck era Devils.

 

[Primary Assist]

Believe it or not Im a huge Sundin fan, but really he should be one of the options for this poll, with either Gilmour or Teeder Kennedy taking the first line spot.

Gilmour had arguably the greatest season in the blue and white for a center the year he won the Selke and came 2nd in Hart voting behind Mario.

Kennedy is the only Leaf center to win a Hart, was arguably the best player ever at taking a faceoff and most importantly he was Ted freaking Kennedy.

After a coin flip Im choosing Gilmour for this one.

 

[tp71]

Not true for either guy.

Keon played in a normal era, but his team was held back offensively by their system. Those 60s leafs were comparable to the dead puck era Devils.

No I mean I agree with you.

Keon's era was not an easy one to score in.

I don't have Sittler or Gilmour on my top 4 list, but that's just me. Gilmour's my favourite player I've ever seen, but he wasn't a Leaf long enough for me to consider him. Sittler sits 5th.

 

[Dreakmur]

Believe it or not Im a huge Sundin fan, but really he should be one of the options for this poll, with either Gilmor or Teeder Kennedy taking the first line spot.

Gilmour had arguably the greatest season in the blue and white for a center the year he won the Selke and came 2nd in Hart voting behind Mario.

Kennedy is the only Leaf center to win a Hart, was arguably the best player ever at taking a faceoff and most importantly he was Ted freaking Kennedy.

After a coin flip Im choosing Gilmour for this one.

Ted kennedy's Hart win should be considered somewhat illegitimate. It was widely understood that it was more of a career achievement award for him rather than recognition of him being the MVP that season.

 

[Dreakmur]

No I mean I agree with you.

Keon's era was not an easy one to score in.

I don't have Sittler or Gilmour on my top 4 list, but that's just me. Gilmour's my favourite player I've ever seen, but he wasn't a Leaf long enough for me to consider him. Sittler sits 5th.

I worded it in a way that sounded like we disagreed. My mistake, and edited.

 

[Jeypic]

But the league average was higher in 92-93 than Sittler's era. So in Gilmour's best year it was easier to score league wide.

I never made the claim that Gilmour played on a higher scoring team. Somebody said he played in an era where scoring wa tougher, which was not true at all.

As a leaf, it was easier to score in sittlers era then it was in gilmours era. Who cares about the rest of the league? They aren't gonna pass the puck to gilmour.

 

[tp71]

I worded it in a way that sounded like we disagreed. My mistake, and edited.

No worries, saw the edit after I responded.

 

[Lauro]

Sundin and Gilmour. Embarrassing. Didn't think that most people here are not worth being a fan of such a storied franchise. Go to the Sens, they started right at the end of your horizon.

 

[ULF_55]

I don't have a big issue with people voting for who they know or are more recent.

I don't think 2 seasons define a career, nor do I think Rick Vaive is the greatest Leafs right wing because he's the only one to score 50+ three times, and this is during my period of watching.

This is more a popularity contest than an evaluation of "All Time" Leafs players. I'm not qualified to come up with that list without a lot of research, but luckily for us someone else has already done that.

Let the fun continue, it is more about seeing how the youngsters feel about their lifetime of Leafs' players.