Player Discussion: Kristian Vesalainen

[GumbyCan2]

Might be best to trade him while he still has value

Unfortunately a few other fan-base know Zippo, Notta, Zero about his game so they want no part of him. Calling him a Pulju? Not worth a 5th? He's had what 8 NHL games , early season trial and being sent home anyways!?
Don't know what he brings or might contribute until given an opportunity to show us all. He has had a steady flow growing year with the Moose past "interrupted season". Maybe he comes back next season with "new tires" , "fresh tune-up and oil change" and desire in his soul to make and contribute on the Jets?
Definitely be a nice outcome. I say give him 2 more years over here to adapt and show progression.

 

[GumbyCan2]

you think chevy has the gumption to make a trade. has he made a hockey trade in 9 years without a gun held to his head like trouba and kane trades. cant think of one. really if trouba and kane wanted to stay he would zero trades in 9 years. he is going to keep plugging in prospects and waiver wire fodder on bottom 6 and defence as our core ages out as long as he is here

Maybe trade Huddy for a viable RHS Dman? Outside of the normal player trade agreements. Would be interesting?
Then hire Mark Stewart to come back as D coach?
Our defenders would learn how to block shots, clear the net and hit!

 

[surixon]

He hasn't adapted to smaller rink with NA style coaching and plays and roughness, possibly. He needs 2 full years here, playing 70+ games NA pro level to adjust, aclimatize, familiarize, and adapt his quickness to applying his junior showing skills. He's not a slouch skater and has size, bulk to withstand the rough stuff. Maybe he is unsure of his skills to adapt to this play, to NHL? He showed a scoring shot ability from different angles in offensive zone, in junior highlights.
Maybe he is too slow for upgraded talent,level, speed of NHL?
A write-off? Not my calling or take (yet). 2 years to see.

The issue is that he went from the big rinks where he played a predominantly finesse style of game. He had enough skill and space that he could play that way over there. In North America he doesnt have that space and while he has good puck skills, he doesnt have good enough ones to get by playing like that over here.

So what has been happening is that hes now learning to use his body and strength to make things happen in the corners, in zone entries and in front of the net. he had never played a more power game before so its been a real learning process. It takes time to completely alter your style of play and commit it to muscle memory. As he continues to get comfortable playing the way he is it will become second nature and he will have much more success.

With regards to his shot, you should go watch some Moose highlights. He was still blowing it by goalies from numerous angles this past year. As he gets stronger and is better able to create spece for himself you will swe that shot more.

 

[GumbyCan2]

Vincent said they had him working on his deficiencies and that it was taking time for him to adjust. He may benefit another year rounding out his game before he’s a regular. I just hope they don’t kill his confidence on offense. I see him being a recall during the year and we’ll see if he’s ready if not keep working hard and year after should be in the lineup.

That's my biggest worry is that "too much hounding on teaching things that are not part of his natural abilities" will diminish his drive and he'll lose his scoring touch? Hope not. I do not believe he was drafted 1st round to be a 4th line checker for 5 years or a PK specialist, was He?

 

[JetsUK]

That's my biggest worry is that "too much hounding on teaching things that are not part of his natural abilities" will diminish his drive and he'll lose his scoring touch? Hope not. I do not believe he was drafted 1st round to be a 4th line checker for 5 years or a PK specialist, was He?

No, but that's the upside of being coached by Vincent for a good while longer. I think he's an excellent teacher and a better coach for young talent, since he seems to have the ability to add round a player's existing skillset rather than trying to simply remould it or trade off creativity against consistency, safety or system (see Harkins, JMo, Poolman, etc). He also seems to have a lot of time for Vesa, based on the PCs and interviews I've seen.

Also, Vesa's shot is insane. He isn't far off the release speed of Connor but with a ton of power, and he can shoot from anywhere. Main things are continued adjustments and playing time now, IMO. I see absolutely no reason to write him off at this point.

 

[GumbyCan2]

The issue is that he went from the big rinks where he played a predominantly finesse style of game. He had enough skill and space that he could play that way over there. In North America he doesnt have that space and while he has good puck skills, he doesnt have good enough ones to get by playing like that over here.

So what has been happening is that hes now learning to use his body and strength to make things happen in the corners, in zone entries and in front of the net. he had never played a more power game before so its been a real learning process. It takes time to completely alter your style of play and commit it to muscle memory. As he continues to get comfortable playing the way he is it will become second nature and he will have much more success.

With regards to his shot, you should go watch some Moose highlights. He was still blowing it by goalies from numerous angles this past year. As he gets stronger and is better able to create spece for himself you will swe that shot more.

Good assessment. I hear you totally.
Would be really cool for him to progress this season into a useful Jets role, and figure these smaller rinks, tougher game NAand by the next season start turning into Mikko Rantanen level player!! Hope with a little praying and alot of Sangria!

 

[GumbyCan2]

No, but that's the upside of being coached by Vincent for a good while longer. I think he's an excellent teacher and a better coach for young talent, since he seems to have the ability to add round a player's existing skillset rather than trying to simply remould it or trade off creativity against consistency, safety or system (see Harkins, JMo, Poolman, etc). He also seems to have a lot of time for Vesa, based on the PCs and interviews I've seen.

Also, Vesa's shot is insane. He isn't far off the release speed of Connor but with a ton of power, and he can shoot from anywhere. Main things are continued adjustments and playing time now, IMO. I see absolutely no reason to write him off at this point.

Absolutely not! Patience there "doctors". Get lots of it (them) and the riches be bestowed upon you!

 

[bustamente]

Way, way to early to give up on K-Ves.

 

[GumbyCan2]

Can anyone tell, who has seen him play, what is his playing style?
Corner play, shot, passing, speed, assertiveness, IQ, etc?

His pre-draft and year alot of highlights showed him scoring from different angles, distances, off-wing, crossing the slot, deep f/o, on the rush 2-on-1's. I watched more gametape,not just high light reels and he dominated quietly until scoring, everyone saw him. He was slick, up &down the ice with the play, clogging up middle ice,the boards and he showed some decent around the net, along backboard play. Larger rink and more open perimeter play of the eurostyle is the norm. He as always on "a" in defensive zone, aware of his area. And very ready to turn it up on breakouts. All positive signs then.
He, with size and style, reminded of a younger version ( not far behind) of Mikko Rantanen type. Would be fantastic if he figures it all out and projects close to Rantanen abilities in the NHL!!
Alot of hope and wishing, but the early pedigree and style and finish Were there! Fingers crossed we see the best of him and it equates to NHL success. That would mean added success to the Jets, if he isn't cast off before that.

 

[GeorgeJETson]

If Vesalainen progresses well, then I wonder if Chevy will use one of Ehlers or Conner in a trade to fill one of the positions we need.

Regardless, I hope Vesalainen can become a great top 6 winger.

 

[surixon]

If Vesalainen progresses well, then I wonder if Chevy will use one of Ehlers or Conner in a trade to fill one of the positions we need.

Regardless, I hope Vesalainen can become a great top 6 winger.

I think we keep all three as Ves's style of game should compliment them.

I still think if a winger goes then its Laine. Just a feeling I have.

 

[voyageur]

Way, way to early to give up on K-Ves.

It took late 1st round pick Roslovic a full season and then half a season on the Moose to break through. We're not even at that point yet. Going back to the K may set him back a year. If he works on his skating, as I feel he is a step behind, and uses his body position stronger, no reason to believe he isn't going to be a top 9 contributor.

 

[GumbyCan2]

The issue is that he went from the big rinks where he played a predominantly finesse style of game. He had enough skill and space that he could play that way over there. In North America he doesnt have that space and while he has good puck skills, he doesnt have good enough ones to get by playing like that over here.

So what has been happening is that hes now learning to use his body and strength to make things happen in the corners, in zone entries and in front of the net. he had never played a more power game before so its been a real learning process. It takes time to completely alter your style of play and commit it to muscle memory. As he continues to get comfortable playing the way he is it will become second nature and he will have much more success.

With regards to his shot, you should go watch some Moose highlights. He was still blowing it by goalies from numerous angles this past year. As he gets stronger and is better able to create spece for himself you will swe that shot more.

Right on. He has Not lost his excellent, find the back of the net shot!

 

[WPGChief]

I really like Hockey-Graph's article by Connor Jungle on an Applied Prospect PipeLinE (APPLE). The math is pretty heavy and I'd do an awful job at trying to explain it in layman's terms, but what it does well is address a few questions like: How likely is a player to make the NHL today?; How much do we expect them to score in the NHL at age X?; What is the development path that maximizes a player’s likelihood to play in the NHL?; What is the development path that maximizes a player’s production in the NHL?

Applying it in Kristian Vesalainen's case, here's what we see:

APPLE sees Vesalainen at age 22 as a 75% chance of staying in the AHL next year, or a 25% chance of making it to the NHL. If he stays in the AHL, he's expected to score around 58 points, whereas being in the NHL he might score as high as 35 (if he plays a full 82 games, not less than 9 minutes a game, etc. etc.). Here's where things get interesting: if you have Vesalainen stay in the AHL for another year, his chances of making it to the NHL the year after is still less than 50%, where even if he was "forced" he would only be expected to score 40 points. However, if he were to play in the NHL for the majority of his age 22 season, APPLE doesn't expect him to drop back down to the AHL at all, and would be expected to score ~48 points instead (again, assuming a lot of optimal factors here).

So, his most likely development path is still AHL to AHL to AHL. But putting him in the NHL next year could essentially make him an NHL regular, instead of a busted prospect that never even got the chance (unless it was in call-ups).

As I mentioned on my Twitter earlier today, there's conversation abound that Vesalainen essentially had to re-create his game when coming from overseas. But I think you gotta roll with him as a regular in 2020-21, bouncing between the 3rd and 4th line at the very least. Give a Lowry-led 3rd line a bit more leash in the offensive zone and pair him with Vesalainen in a shooter mentality (and also give him PP2 minutes), and I think that's your best path for "graduating" Vesalainen from a prospect to an NHL player. Playing in the AHL for another season won't do much for him, in my opinion; much like it wasn't going to do anything for Kyle Connor who went down in 2017-18 and only got called back up (and stayed) due to Perreault's injury early in the season.

 

[Whileee]

I really like Hockey-Graph's article by Connor Jungle on an Applied Prospect PipeLinE (APPLE). The math is pretty heavy and I'd do an awful job at trying to explain it in layman's terms, but what it does well is address a few questions like: How likely is a player to make the NHL today?; How much do we expect them to score in the NHL at age X?; What is the development path that maximizes a player’s likelihood to play in the NHL?; What is the development path that maximizes a player’s production in the NHL?

Applying it in Kristian Vesalainen's case, here's what we see:

APPLE sees Vesalainen at age 22 as a 75% chance of staying in the AHL next year, or a 25% chance of making it to the NHL. If he stays in the AHL, he's expected to score around 58 points, whereas being in the NHL he might score as high as 35 (if he plays a full 82 games, not less than 9 minutes a game, etc. etc.). Here's where things get interesting: if you have Vesalainen stay in the AHL for another year, his chances of making it to the NHL the year after is still less than 50%, where even if he was "forced" he would only be expected to score 40 points. However, if he were to play in the NHL for the majority of his age 22 season, APPLE doesn't expect him to drop back down to the AHL at all, and would be expected to score ~48 points instead (again, assuming a lot of optimal factors here).

So, his most likely development path is still AHL to AHL to AHL. But putting him in the NHL next year could essentially make him an NHL regular, instead of a busted prospect that never even got the chance (unless it was in call-ups).

As I mentioned on my Twitter earlier today, there's conversation abound that Vesalainen essentially had to re-create his game when coming from overseas. But I think you gotta roll with him as a regular in 2020-21, bouncing between the 3rd and 4th line at the very least. Give a Lowry-led 3rd line a bit more leash in the offensive zone and pair him with Vesalainen in a shooter mentality (and also give him PP2 minutes), and I think that's your best path for "graduating" Vesalainen from a prospect to an NHL player. Playing in the AHL for another season won't do much for him, in my opinion; much like it wasn't going to do anything for Kyle Connor who went down in 2017-18 and only got called back up (and stayed) due to Perreault's injury early in the season.

Very interesting post.

A really clear factor in development is opportunity, which isn't simply a feature of prospect per se, but also decisions made by the NHL coaches and the management. There is also a "clock" on prospects, because of the waiver provisions, so NHL teams must make a decision on a prospect, contingent on the roster space in the NHL.

For Vesalainen, I think his trajectory with the Jets will depend on whether the Jets plan on using next year to bring along more youth up front (Harkins, Gustafsson, Vesalainen) and on D (Samberg, Heinola, Niku?). I think he's likely to take another step forward at the AHL level next year, as the model predicts, but I agree that it would make sense to start him in the NHL unless he really disappoints in training camp. The big question really revolves around Perreault (as it did for Connor). If the Jets want to ride out one more year with Perreault on LW, KVes is odd man out with Harkins and perhaps Gus making the transition to the NHL.

My preference would be to accelerate the introduction of young players into the line-up next season, and not blow things up to add a 2C in a year where they might not be a real contender, focusing on 2021/22 as the year to push more aggressively (after restocking prospects with the 2020 and 2021 drafts).

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

As I mentioned on my Twitter earlier today, there's conversation abound that Vesalainen essentially had to re-create his game when coming from overseas.

So, I have to wonder why even draft players that need to be completely reshaped? Why not just draft players that are already well down the road we want them on?

 

[surixon]

So, I have to wonder why even draft players that need to be completely reshaped? Why not just draft players that are already well down the road we want them on?

Interesting question. To me it looks like we draft as much talent as possible no matter if the style contradicts and the Maurice mold. For an org that likely will predominantly rely on the draft for the bulk of its roster talent there is some logic there. Having said that it takes a while for players to reahape their games.

I also think it would be easier to have a more offensive minded coach that could likely integrate the players easier. They are clearly trying to be Boston west and trying to create a Jets mold of player much like the Bruins do with their players.

 

[Whileee]

So, I have to wonder why even draft players that need to be completely reshaped? Why not just draft players that are already well down the road we want them on?

Because most prospects are drafted based on their play at ages 16 and 17 years old.

 

[WPGChief]

A really clear factor in development is opportunity, which isn't simply a feature of prospect per se, but also decisions made by the NHL coaches and the management. There is also a "clock" on prospects, because of the waiver provisions, so NHL teams must make a decision on a prospect, contingent on the roster space in the NHL.

Yup. I know Vegas is but one team that shattered expectations in a lot of ways, but it's a pretty good example nonetheless of a lot of players getting more opportunity (and all your other intangibles) and thriving. It's starting to show a bit more in NHL teams that are playing just-drafted or the year after defencemen.

So, I have to wonder why even draft players that need to be completely reshaped? Why not just draft players that are already well down the road we want them on?

The old saying is "you can't teach size"; others will say it's more just rounding out Vesalainen's game defensively and as a prototypical "power forward", however you want to define that. By "completely reshape", I'm assuming it's a bit of an exaggeration from what I've heard people saying, but it was pretty clear (even from highlights) he was playing differently from when he first played in the AHL in 2018-19 season to the end of the 2019-20 season.

Having to "reshape" his game is also a pretty convenient excuse, if you see it that way as well.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Having to "reshape" his game is also a pretty convenient excuse, if you see it that way as well.

Hey, I'm the last person who can say what any player's game is, and what sort of shape it needs to be. Just commenting on others' perceptions, and wondering if we have that rumoured disconnect between GM and coach. Chevy does his thing, Maurice does his and ne'er the twain shall meet.

 

[Whileee]

Yup. I know Vegas is but one team that shattered expectations in a lot of ways, but it's a pretty good example nonetheless of a lot of players getting more opportunity (and all your other intangibles) and thriving. It's starting to show a bit more in NHL teams that are playing just-drafted or the year after defencemen.

The old saying is "you can't teach size"; others will say it's more just rounding out Vesalainen's game defensively and as a prototypical "power forward", however you want to define that. By "completely reshape", I'm assuming it's a bit of an exaggeration from what I've heard people saying, but it was pretty clear (even from highlights) he was playing differently from when he first played in the AHL in 2018-19 season to the end of the 2019-20 season.

Having to "reshape" his game is also a pretty convenient excuse, if you see it that way as well.

I agree about opportunity, and that there is increasing positive experience with slotting in young players and thriving. Chevy specifically mentioned this in relation to the possibility of rebuilding the Jets' D with internal solutions like Samberg and Heinola. I think both are likely ready - Samberg for a second pairing and Heinola for a third pairing role.

I think maybe too much emphasis is on "remaking" Vesalainen's game. He probably needed to make quicker reads and play a more direct game in N America, but I think that's not unusual. I expect it's as much a matter of developing consistency of effort, and maybe getting a bit stronger and faster. He's now at the same stage as Armia when he broke into the line-up partway through the season. His trajectory has been very similar. I think that with opportunity he'll likely be able to make the jump and soon produce some offense, especially if he gets some PP opportunities (a la Gurianov with the Stars this year).

 

[Whileee]

Hey, I'm the last person who can say what any player's game is, and what sort of shape it needs to be. Just commenting on others' perceptions, and wondering if we have that rumoured disconnect between GM and coach. Chevy does his thing, Maurice does his and ne'er the twain shall meet.

That Chevy is so sneaky. Even though he has a longstanding "disconnect" with Maurice he goes out of his way to praise him for an "A" grade coaching performance this season.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

That Chevy is so sneaky. Even though he has a longstanding "disconnect" with Maurice he goes out of his way to praise him for an "A" grade coaching performance this season.

Chipman is the writer/director. Chevy just reads his lines from the script.

 

[Jets 31]

Vesalainen hasn't even gotten a real chance yet with the Jets , i'm not writing him off already. Let's see after he plays half a season with the Jets first before giving up . At this point i would rather have him in the lineup than Frenchie but then there would be alot of snow on the ice for the girls to shovel during commercial breaks without Frenchie picking it all up by falling down all the time.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Who said he would replace Armia at 19 years old?

I think we can safely ignore trolls from Habs fans.