Kraken 2024 Offseason chatter

[majormajor]

Honestly, I have reservations against getting Marner altogether. No arguing that he is an elite offensive talent but giving up Bjorkstrand and Larsson would cost a lot and gut the team defense. I would just throw money at Guentzel or Reinhart in FA instead. Not quite Marner level but they are also known producers on offense.

Agree on Wennberg, if we are going to try to go back to mediocrity then don't spend any money and leave the roster as is for the upcoming season.

I'm not gung ho on the Marner idea, largely because who we would have to trade. It won't be picks, it will be some of our best players.

Guentzel and Reinhart are both worth big offers. I have no idea if the top offer they get will be reasonable and worth outbidding, but we should at least make big offers and see what happens.

Our mediocrity is a top of the lineup issue, not one player (Wennberg) in one role.

Re-signing Wennberg? Jfc can we not just let players move to other teams without all the angst and hand-wringing every single time? Why are people so eager to run it back with a team thats now two years older and basically rode an emotional underdog vibe and a wildly unrealistic shooting % to a couple rounds of playoffs? Is that really what people consider this team’s ceiling?

I believe this is what's called "psychological projection", either way it's a bad guess as to my reasoning.

I don't have Wennberg nostalgia. I went through the list of UFA centers and he was by far the best suited to a shutdown role. If you have a better solution feel free to share. If it's not Wennberg, I'm very okay with that, but it has to be a shutdown center.

 

[Fuhrious]

 

[chethejet]

Pens have a head coach that would fit nicely in Seattle.

 

[Fuhrious]

McFarland also out.

 

[Fuhrious]

Pens have a head coach that would fit nicely in Seattle.

Don’t let the Hakstol hire fool you mate, this isn’t a Pennsylvania landfill. Keep your trash.

 

[kihei]

I was just modeling how Marner would fit, I didn't intend to get in a debate about every little thing. But suffice it to say, we're going to need to spend money to get a top pair RD and a veteran shutdown center.

Wennberg is just penciled at 4C because those are linemates he clicked with, you could order it however you want. I would expect him to play a lot if he returned here. He's a good defensive center and we'll need someone to take hard minutes. Gourde is aging out. With two young centers, the coach is going to quit the team if he doesn't have a veteran shutdown option. If you have a different center that you prefer for that role, I'd be curious about that player. I know Wennberg is good at the role.

We're either keeping Larsson and giving him a long extension (he's 31), or signing DeMelo for a lot of years, or signing some other established D for a lot of years, or signing short term some non-established D that we think can step up. This is not an easy puzzle. I know I would take DeMelo, but I'd be curious if you have a better idea. Not signing veterans is overly risk averse, you're guaranteeing that you won't have a good team if you take that approach.

Yes Marner extends, that is part of the premise of any Marner trade discussion, here or elsewhere. It's a hypothetical.

I wouldn't mortgage the future on being respectable now. The farm should start paying dividends if not next season, than the season after that. I would sign veterans to replace those that we have lost or don't want back (Yamamoto, Bellemare) who could also fill a mentoring role to the bunch of youngsters we are eventually going to have coming up. If there was a judicious trade that I could make that would net more scoring for us I would make it, but not at the price of first and second round draft choices. I don't think Bjorkstrand and Larsson comes close to netting us Marner, but maybe one or both could be packaged to nab us another scoring top six forward. Yes, we might have to take our lumps this way, but eventually we will have a competitive team to show for it.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I was just modeling how Marner would fit, I didn't intend to get in a debate about every little thing. But suffice it to say, we're going to need to spend money to get a top pair RD and a veteran shutdown center.

Wennberg is just penciled at 4C because those are linemates he clicked with, you could order it however you want. I would expect him to play a lot if he returned here. He's a good defensive center and we'll need someone to take hard minutes. Gourde is aging out. With two young centers, the coach is going to quit the team if he doesn't have a veteran shutdown option. If you have a different center that you prefer for that role, I'd be curious about that player. I know Wennberg is good at the role.

We're either keeping Larsson and giving him a long extension (he's 31), or signing DeMelo for a lot of years, or signing some other established D for a lot of years, or signing short term some non-established D that we think can step up. This is not an easy puzzle. I know I would take DeMelo, but I'd be curious if you have a better idea. Not signing veterans is overly risk averse, you're guaranteeing that you won't have a good team if you take that approach.

Yes Marner extends, that is part of the premise of any Marner trade discussion, here or elsewhere. It's a hypothetical.

I would prefer a shutdown C who is more physical than Wennberg and better on draws.

I am not averse to signing veterans, but it needs to make sense for our future. Also, I feel like Demelo is more of a product of playing with Morrissey. He is a good shutdown D and may do well when stapled to Dunn, but I am not confident he would be any better than a #4D on his own.

I will be more amenable if Demelo agrees to a 3-4 year contract.

You are 100% right that we will need to take risks to improve the roster. But the more I think about it, the more I feel that throwing money at Reinhart or Guentzel is the better way to go. They are 3 and 2 years older than Marner but won't cost us any assets. Marner is better than both of them AND younger, but he is also likely to get paid more and will also cost us significant assets.

 

[kihei]

You are 100% right that we will need to take risks to improve the roster. But the more I think about it, the more I feel that throwing money at Reinhart or Guentzel is the better way to go. They are 3 and 2 years older than Marner but won't cost us any assets. Marner is better than both of them AND younger, but he is also likely to get paid more and will also cost us significant assets.

Given our cap space, instead of signing guys who will only make a cosmetic difference at best, why don't we take on some bad contracts for two years in return for draft choices. Want 65 to 70 more points on offense, maybe Toronto would give us a second round pick to get rid of the last year of the contact. In not, maybe there are other sweetheart deals out there we could broker. Seems like a good way to both get immediate offensive help at least with some of these guys while acquiring more draft capital.

 

[brewski420]

Pens have a head coach that would fit nicely in Seattle.

Absolutely not!!!

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Given our cap space, instead of signing guys who will only make a cosmetic difference at best, why don't we take on some bad contracts for two years in return for draft choices. Want 65 to 70 more points on offense, maybe Toronto would give us a second round pick to get rid of the last year of the contact. In not, maybe there are other sweetheart deals out there we could broker. Seems like a good way to both get immediate offensive help at least with some of these guys while acquiring more draft capital.

Are you thinking Guentzel or Reinhart only make a cosmetic difference? In that case, what would be the point of signing Tavares who is unlikely to produce at their level on our team.

I am not in favor of half measures. If you want to improve the roster and help goal scoring, you need to get that elite player one way or the other. I am not sure if you think Guentzel or Reinhart as cosmetic changes or why but if you are thinking of Tavares, I am opposed to that. I doubt he gets even 60 points on our offense plus he doesn't really fit with the team speed we like.

Now, if we are going for another shit year and try to draft better in the 2025 draft, sure go for Tavares. Also trade Tanev, Gourde, or anyone else on an expiring contract. Even Larsson if he is not ready to re-sign here.

 

[kihei]

Are you thinking Guentzel or Reinhart only make a cosmetic difference? In that case, what would be the point of signing Tavares who is unlikely to produce at their level on our team.

I am not in favor of half measures. If you want to improve the roster and help goal scoring, you need to get that elite player one way or the other. I am not sure if you think Guentzel or Reinhart as cosmetic changes or why but if you are thinking of Tavares, I am opposed to that. I doubt he gets even 60 points on our offense plus he doesn't really fit with the team speed we like.

Now, if we are going for another shit year and try to draft better in the 2025 draft, sure go for Tavares. Also trade Tanev, Gourde, or anyone else on an expiring contract. Even Larsson if he is not ready to re-sign here.

The only reason I want to sign Taveres is IF he comes with a draft choice, say a second round pick, and because he has only one more year left on his contract. The way I see it we have two years to get through before we can start relying on our farm system to start producing good NHL players. What to do in the meantime? We could spend our capital on signing free agents, but the reason I think that is cosmetic is because I don't think it will have much influence on our being able to make the playoffs anyway. Guentzel or Reinhart or Marner, for that matter, on their own, aren't going to put us in the playoffs. In short, I don't think there is a quick fix that will work for us. So can we use at least spend some of our cap space more wisely than that? Why not use the money to explore cap dumps, to get players other teams want to be rid of if those teams are willing to cough up draft picks, especially if those players have only one or two years left on their contracts. I would rather use at least a portion of the money to acquire more picks for the future than spend it on some free agent who is not going to make much of a difference anyway.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

The only reason I want to sign Taveres is if he comes with a draft choice, say a second round pick, and he has only one more year left on his contract. The way I see it we have two years to get through before we can start relying on our farm system to start producing good NHL players. What to do in the meantime? We could spend our capital on signing free agents, but the reason I think that is cosmetic is because I don't think it will have much influence on our being able to make the playoffs anyway. Guentzel or Reinhart or Marner, for that matter, on their own, aren't going to put us in the playoffs. In short, I don't think there is a quick fix that will work for us. So can we use our cap money more wisely than that? Why not use the money to get players other teams want to dump if those teams are willing to cough up draft picks, especially if those players have only one or two years left on their contracts. I would rather use the money to acquire more picks for the future than spend it on some free agent who is not going to make much of a difference anyway.

But thats my point. What is the goal here? To make up for the lack of offense on the team and be competitive next season or continue the process of building through the draft.

I have seen way too many teams taking half measures and not going anywhere. Also, I believe an elite offensive player can completely change this team. It gives us a true 1st line and moves more skilled players down the lines, improving the team as a whole.

 

[kihei]

But thats my point. What is the goal here? To make up for the lack of offense on the team and be competitive next season or continue the process of building through the draft.

I have seen way too many teams taking half measures and not going anywhere. Also, I believe an elite offensive player can completely change this team. It gives us a true 1st line and moves more skilled players down the lines, improving the team as a whole.

My preference would be to ride it out and build through the draft which is why I want to find ways to acquire more draft picks. Can you think of an instance where a team has acquired one elite offensive player and it has transformed them into a playoff contender? I don't think it happens much, if at all.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

My preference would be to ride it out and build through the draft which is why I want to find ways to acquire more draft picks. Can you think of an instance where a team has acquired one elite offensive player and it has transformed them into a playoff contender? I don't think it happens much, if at all.

Getting an elite player is a step towards getting better and not a bandaid. That's why I prefer to get an elite player. He may or may not make us a playoff contender but it gets more talent on the team and fills in a big need.

I am perfectly fine riding it out. Heck, I prefer that. But I don't think Francis is going to do that. Not on the basis of what he has said so far. That's the main reason I am concerned with half measures.

 

[RainyCityHockey]

The only reason I want to sign Taveres is IF he comes with a draft choice, say a second round pick, and because he has only one more year left on his contract. The way I see it we have two years to get through before we can start relying on our farm system to start producing good NHL players. What to do in the meantime? We could spend our capital on signing free agents, but the reason I think that is cosmetic is because I don't think it will have much influence on our being able to make the playoffs anyway. Guentzel or Reinhart or Marner, for that matter, on their own, aren't going to put us in the playoffs. In short, I don't think there is a quick fix that will work for us. So can we use at least spend some of our cap space more wisely than that? Why not use the money to explore cap dumps, to get players other teams want to be rid of if those teams are willing to cough up draft picks, especially if those players have only one or two years left on their contracts. I would rather use at least a portion of the money to acquire more picks for the future than spend it on some free agent who is not going to make much of a difference anyway.

We would be trading for him and his $11M cap hit.
There's no way you take on that money, even with the cap going up, for a 2nd round draft pick.

If you wanted to go that route(which Francis has not done in Seattle) you'd ask for their first round pick.
If they would say no you just don't do that given the huge cap hit of Tavares deal.

Though, looking at Francis move yesterday(Hakstol) and his comments in the exit interview(where he also mentioned ownership wanting to be competitive) I doubt you'll see a move like this.

 

[kihei]

We would be trading for him and his $11M cap hit.
There's no way you take on that money, even with the cap going up, for a 2nd round draft pick.

If you wanted to go that route(which Francis has not done in Seattle) you'd ask for their first round pick.
If they would say no you just don't do that given the huge cap hit of Tavares deal.

Though, looking at Francis move yesterday(Hakstol) and his comments in the exit interview(where he also mentioned ownership wanting to be competitive) I doubt you'll see a move like this.

Good points. Agree about the first rounder.

The larger point remains let's use our assets to get more draft picks, not to acquire stop gap measures.

 

[majormajor]

Getting an elite player is a step towards getting better and not a bandaid. That's why I prefer to get an elite player. He may or may not make us a playoff contender but it gets more talent on the team and fills in a big need.

I am perfectly fine riding it out. Heck, I prefer that. But I don't think Francis is going to do that. Not on the basis of what he has said so far. That's the main reason I am concerned with half measures.

In four years in Carolina, Francis did almost nothing.

The Teravainen trade was nice, but beyond that pretty much zero noteworthy trades.

So if you like riding it out, as many here do, then shouldn't Francis be your guy? That's what he did in Carolina.

Do we think it's different here because of impatient ownership? They're going to push him and he'll do some half measures?

 

[kihei]

In four years in Carolina, Francis did almost nothing.

The Teravainen trade was nice, but beyond that pretty much zero noteworthy trades.

So if you like riding it out, as many here do, then shouldn't Francis be your guy? That's what he did in Carolina.

Do we think it's different here because of impatient ownership? They're going to push him and he'll do some half measures?

Well, there's the rub now, innit?

I'm really curious to see how all this pans out in the near future and just how and to what degree ownership gets hands on with the GM. Seattle's a new market and riding it out will impact attendance unless the Kraken can find some way to sell the sizzle in anticipation of the steak.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Well, there's the rub now, innit?

I'm really curious to see how all this pans out in the near future and just how and to what degree ownership gets hands on with the GM. Seattle's a new market and riding it out will impact attendance unless the Kraken can find some way to sell the sizzle in anticipation of the steak.

And I could be wrong but wasn't Carolina more of an internal cap team back then? Francis has been given the green light to spend to the cap, which is generally a sign that the team intends to be competitive.

 

[Fuhrious]

 

[Scomerica]

It would have to be players that felt safe to speak up and under contract- McCann? Eberle? Beniers maybe?

 

[RainyCityHockey]

Well, that would explain all those exit interviews with guys saying they don't know when asked what happened this season.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

It would have to be players that felt safe to speak up and under contract- McCann? Eberle? Beniers maybe?

I would expect Eberle to be one of those guys. After that, not sure. Maybe McCann, Gourde, Burakovsky.

 

[The Marquis]

Larsson comes to mind.

 

[majormajor]

And I could be wrong but wasn't Carolina more of an internal cap team back then? Francis has been given the green light to spend to the cap, which is generally a sign that the team intends to be competitive.

There's only a few teams that aren't within $5m of the cap, so it's hard to say if it really means anything anymore. Rebuilding squads still sign players in UFA and spend it. Then there's a few that pile up LTIR players, in the most extreme case like Arizona.