Kitchener Rangers 2019 Offseason Thread

[OhSheila]

Or it could and would, play Toronto, Toronto, then London. American acts usually play limited cities in Canada. They try to get into bigger seated buildings and just as important, spread the shows out.

That's where geography comes in. If they've already played Buffalo, Toronto, maybe Toronto again or Hamilton, they'd more than likely play London on the way to Detroit. London is a two hour drive either way from Toronto and Detroit. Therefore, their fan base in the London area is looked after. Their fan base in Kitchener was looked after via the Toronto show.

Architecturally, the Kitchener auditorium is sound. No need to tear down and replace an already viable building. There can be more expansion. They could do an expansion the same way they did when they put in all the blue seats. Just do the same thing on the other side of the building, and put boxes along the top of both sides.

The attendance gained would be sufficient and a lot of money saved.

Most of the reason for the push to build a new building is because they want it downtown. All part of the downtown revitalization.

You're right. The Aud needs to be downtown or close to it. There are no restaurants or bars near the Aud. The seats are small and cramped. The population of Kitchener and the entire region is growing and we'll need an event facility that reflects that. The ice surface is also not NHL standard. That affects the ability to attract tournaments.

There will be a new Aud and the current Aud Site will be re-imagined and redeveloped much like the Schneiders plant.

 

[EvenSteven]

You're right. The Aud needs to be downtown or close to it. There are no restaurants or bars near the Aud. The seats are small and cramped. The population of Kitchener and the entire region is growing and we'll need an event facility that reflects that. The ice surface is also not NHL standard. That affects the ability to attract tournaments.

There will be a new Aud and the current Aud Site will be re-imagined and redeveloped much like the Schneiders plant.

I understand the perceived need for a new building downtown. Personally, I like where the Aud is now. Easy to get to. Easy to get out of quickly being right beside the expressway and out of town if you need to get out of town quick.

Being located where it is now makes it very convenient going to and from games for locals and out of towneta alike. Putting it downtown, would add time before and after each game getting to and getting out of the downtown. Especially considering the 6 or 7 thousand who would be attending games.

Not to mention that the cost of games would go up to pay for a new building. Add on paid parking, etc etc and for me it would be much more of a hassle going to games.

Put me on the list of people who do not want to see a new building downtown. That being said, I am at the age right now ( early 50s ) where by the time a new building is built, I'll either be dead or unwilling to put up with the extra hassle and cost of getting to and from games downtown. So for me, I'm confident that the day they build a building downtown will be the end of me going to games regularly.

I suspect that there will be a lot of people my age and older who will be in the same boat. Right now it's pretty convenient for a senior to get to and from games when all they have to do is park and walk a parking lot. To expect them to park block(s) away from the downtown building and fight the weather to get to and from the game? I don't see it happening.

Now I know the aim is to get young people to go to games. The last thing The Kitchener Rangers want is a large percentage of their fan base being senior aged people as is the case now. These are not people who are really free with their money at the concession stands or at the bar. They would much rather weed these people out sooner than later.

 

[GeoBlue]

I understand the perceived need for a new building downtown. Personally, I like where the Aud is now. Easy to get to. Easy to get out of quickly being right beside the expressway and out of town if you need to get out of town quick.

Being located where it is now makes it very convenient going to and from games for locals and out of towneta alike. Putting it downtown, would add time before and after each game getting to and getting out of the downtown. Especially considering the 6 or 7 thousand who would be attending games.

Not to mention that the cost of games would go up to pay for a new building. Add on paid parking, etc etc and for me it would be much more of a hassle going to games.

Put me on the list of people who do not want to see a new building downtown. That being said, I am at the age right now ( early 50s ) where by the time a new building is built, I'll either be dead or unwilling to put up with the extra hassle and cost of getting to and from games downtown. So for me, I'm confident that the day they build a building downtown will be the end of me going to games regularly.

I suspect that there will be a lot of people my age and older who will be in the same boat. Right now it's pretty convenient for a senior to get to and from games when all they have to do is park and walk a parking lot. To expect them to park block(s) away from the downtown building and fight the weather to get to and from the game? I don't see it happening.

Now I know the aim is to get young people to go to games. The last thing The Kitchener Rangers want is a large percentage of their fan base being senior aged people as is the case now. These are not people who are really free with their money at the concession stands or at the bar. They would much rather weed these people out sooner than later.

I imagine that the idea would be to put the new arena downtown beside the LRT route. Either way, leave some room on that boat for me.

 

[bobber]

I understand the perceived need for a new building downtown. Personally, I like where the Aud is now. Easy to get to. Easy to get out of quickly being right beside the expressway and out of town if you need to get out of town quick.

Being located where it is now makes it very convenient going to and from games for locals and out of towneta alike. Putting it downtown, would add time before and after each game getting to and getting out of the downtown. Especially considering the 6 or 7 thousand who would be attending games.

Not to mention that the cost of games would go up to pay for a new building. Add on paid parking, etc etc and for me it would be much more of a hassle going to games.

Put me on the list of people who do not want to see a new building downtown. That being said, I am at the age right now ( early 50s ) where by the time a new building is built, I'll either be dead or unwilling to put up with the extra hassle and cost of getting to and from games downtown. So for me, I'm confident that the day they build a building downtown will be the end of me going to games regularly.

I suspect that there will be a lot of people my age and older who will be in the same boat. Right now it's pretty convenient for a senior to get to and from games when all they have to do is park and walk a parking lot. To expect them to park block(s) away from the downtown building and fight the weather to get to and from the game? I don't see it happening.

Now I know the aim is to get young people to go to games. The last thing The Kitchener Rangers want is a large percentage of their fan base being senior aged people as is the case now. These are not people who are really free with their money at the concession stands or at the bar. They would much rather weed these people out sooner than later.

Totally agree Even. Great post!

 

[Rangers True Blue]

I understand the perceived need for a new building downtown. Personally, I like where the Aud is now. Easy to get to. Easy to get out of quickly being right beside the expressway and out of town if you need to get out of town quick.

Being located where it is now makes it very convenient going to and from games for locals and out of towneta alike. Putting it downtown, would add time before and after each game getting to and getting out of the downtown. Especially considering the 6 or 7 thousand who would be attending games.

Not to mention that the cost of games would go up to pay for a new building. Add on paid parking, etc etc and for me it would be much more of a hassle going to games.

Put me on the list of people who do not want to see a new building downtown. That being said, I am at the age right now ( early 50s ) where by the time a new building is built, I'll either be dead or unwilling to put up with the extra hassle and cost of getting to and from games downtown. So for me, I'm confident that the day they build a building downtown will be the end of me going to games regularly.

I suspect that there will be a lot of people my age and older who will be in the same boat. Right now it's pretty convenient for a senior to get to and from games when all they have to do is park and walk a parking lot. To expect them to park block(s) away from the downtown building and fight the weather to get to and from the game? I don't see it happening.

Now I know the aim is to get young people to go to games. The last thing The Kitchener Rangers want is a large percentage of their fan base being senior aged people as is the case now. These are not people who are really free with their money at the concession stands or at the bar. They would much rather weed these people out sooner than later.

Let's not even get into the cost of items at the concession stands and bars. When a one-size "boat" of fries cost as much or perhaps more than a bag of potatoes, you know that fans are being taken advantage of by someone....the City of Kitchener perhaps?? But I've seen lots of seniors buy stuff so I'd prefer not to be weeded out. Ageism in action? And I still see many families at the games where one generation brings the other to enjoy the Rangers. I'm there today because my parents took me and now, I take my grandchildren. This is the heart and soul of Rangers nation and should be capitalized on. The more affordable it is for families to attend...the greater the opportunity to include fans of all ages. Rather than fleece their fans, affordability should play an important role in building the fan base. One factor I know.......but without fans....

IMHO, the Aud is in the ideal location by the expressway. Absolutely. How will moving it to a downtown location (where???) will be better for fans especially considering the inconvenience of parking there today. And yes....paid parking likely. Although, I'm sure we could all bike or walk there. Or hey....we could all take the LRT to the new rink downtown... ; )

 

[EvenSteven]

I imagine that the idea would be to put the new arena downtown beside the LRT route. Either way, leave some room on that boat for me.

If they were ever thinking of not replacing the Aud but rather upgrading the current building further or building a new one at that location, they would've brought that LRT a lot closer - maybe even had a stop right at the front door. Instead, it's a small but inconvenient trek from the closest stop to the arena.

 

[EvenSteven]

Let's not even get into the cost of items at the concession stands and bars. When a one-size "boat" of fries cost as much or perhaps more than a bag of potatoes, you know that fans are being taken advantage of by someone....the City of Kitchener perhaps?? But I've seen lots of seniors buy stuff so I'd prefer not to be weeded out. Ageism in action? And I still see many families at the games where one generation brings the other to enjoy the Rangers. I'm there today because my parents took me and now, I take my grandchildren. This is the heart and soul of Rangers nation and should be capitalized on. The more affordable it is for families to attend...the greater the opportunity to include fans of all ages. Rather than fleece their fans, affordability should play an important role in building the fan base. One factor I know.......but without fans....

IMHO, the Aud is in the ideal location by the expressway. Absolutely. How will moving it to a downtown location (where???) will be better for fans especially considering the inconvenience of parking there today. And yes....paid parking likely. Although, I'm sure we could all bike or walk there. Or hey....we could all take the LRT to the new rink downtown... ; )

Ditto and ditto. That's how I became a fan and that's why my grandkids today are fans.

City planners are in a dreamworld if they think everybody will ditch their cars and rely on public transit. I suppose if you live along the LRT line and wherever you work/shop/and spend your leisure time, is along the LRT, then maybe. But if you live in the suburbs, relying on LRT is an inconvenience

 

[Ward Cornell]

If they were ever thinking of not replacing the Aud but rather upgrading the current building further or building a new one at that location, they would've brought that LRT a lot closer - maybe even had a stop right at the front door. Instead, it's a small but inconvenient trek from the closest stop to the arena.

I always thought two possible sites would be at the old city hall clock tower site and then the old industrial site on Charles between Kent and Borden Ave. The clock tower site is where the Panthers use to play. Now it's used for many outdoor events so that may not be ideal anymore plus it takes away from green space downtown.
Edited to add an "hornets nest here"....with some rumblings about amalgamation would the Rangers actually consider a new arena not in Kitchener??.....OH BOY.... (just asking the question)

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

I always thought two possible sites would be at the old city hall clock tower site and then the old industrial site on Charles between Kent and Borden Ave. The clock tower site is where the Panthers use to play. Now it's used for many outdoor events so that may not be ideal anymore plus it takes away from green space downtown.
Edited to add an "hornets nest here"....with some rumblings about amalgamation would the Rangers actually consider a new arena not in Kitchener??.....OH BOY.... (just asking the question)

I’d assume no. although we are calling for a new arena, the Aud is IMO a top 3-5 facility in the league. fits a lot of people, more often than not a lot of people come. pretty decent history behind the team. don’t think they’re going out of KW

 

[Tim Wallach]

Ditto and ditto. That's how I became a fan and that's why my grandkids today are fans.

City planners are in a dreamworld if they think everybody will ditch their cars and rely on public transit. I suppose if you live along the LRT line and wherever you work/shop/and spend your leisure time, is along the LRT, then maybe. But if you live in the suburbs, relying on LRT is an inconvenience

My 2 cents on the topic aligns with this. There is a planning accepted wisdom that downtown arenas are a boon and lifeline for a franchise. However, that fails to consider two factors that weigh heavily locally:

1. That concept is for large cities where public transit is the dominant form of travel for most people because it's cheaper and more efficient than using cars.
2. For all intents and purposes, the Aud is more or less downtown. Yes, I realize it's several blocks from the core, but it's hardly a satellite site. In most large cities, that location would be considered as being in the core. It is certainly no further than say LeBreton Flats is from Ottawa city hall.

Add to that the fact that transit currently costs $3.25 per ride. For a family of four going to a game, that adds $28 in cost to the tickets, which as was previously mentioned, is already at the tipping point of affordability for most.

To my mind, despite it's age and obvious challenges, the Aud is still absolutely perfectly situated for this community. Dead central to the region, easy highway access with tons of parking (which is a necessity in my mind despite idealistic thinking).

 

[Ward Cornell]

My 2 cents on the topic aligns with this. There is a planning accepted wisdom that downtown arenas are a boon and lifeline for a franchise. However, that fails to consider two factors that weigh heavily locally:

1. That concept is for large cities where public transit is the dominant form of travel for most people because it's cheaper and more efficient than using cars.
2. For all intents and purposes, the Aud is more or less downtown. Yes, I realize it's several blocks from the core, but it's hardly a satellite site. In most large cities, that location would be considered as being in the core. It is certainly no further than say LeBreton Flats is from Ottawa city hall.

Add to that the fact that transit currently costs $3.25 per ride. For a family of four going to a game, that adds $28 in cost to the tickets, which as was previously mentioned, is already at the tipping point of affordability for most.

To my mind, despite it's age and obvious challenges, the Aud is still absolutely perfectly situated for this community. Dead central to the region, easy highway access with tons of parking (which is a necessity in my mind despite idealistic thinking).

Don't disagree with the present location. The entire site though could be redeveloped with added attractions. A new ball field and stands with a Double A or A team as major tenant. Having this site and building under utilized seems like a waste. Some of the downtown attraction to an arena is getting more hours use out of it...conventions and trade shows with hotels close by.
Even if a new arena is needed to be built, there is plenty enough of room on this site to build the new one on it then demo the existing. There would just be some hardship for a cpl seasons for parking issues.

 

[robertmac43]

I sincerely hope an arena is not built down town for the reason mentioned already, the hassle. I reside in the Loo and getting to the arena is simple due to the expressway. Coming down town would be an annoyance for sure and would definitely take some of my wanting to go out to a midweek game and some Friday games. I love the team, I love going to games, but as a fan who is now at an age where I'm working full time I just want to avoid as much hassle as possible outside of my work life.

 

[OhSheila]

I understand the perceived need for a new building downtown. Personally, I like where the Aud is now. Easy to get to. Easy to get out of quickly being right beside the expressway and out of town if you need to get out of town quick.

Being located where it is now makes it very convenient going to and from games for locals and out of towneta alike. Putting it downtown, would add time before and after each game getting to and getting out of the downtown. Especially considering the 6 or 7 thousand who would be attending games.

Not to mention that the cost of games would go up to pay for a new building. Add on paid parking, etc etc and for me it would be much more of a hassle going to games.

Put me on the list of people who do not want to see a new building downtown. That being said, I am at the age right now ( early 50s ) where by the time a new building is built, I'll either be dead or unwilling to put up with the extra hassle and cost of getting to and from games downtown. So for me, I'm confident that the day they build a building downtown will be the end of me going to games regularly.

I suspect that there will be a lot of people my age and older who will be in the same boat. Right now it's pretty convenient for a senior to get to and from games when all they have to do is park and walk a parking lot. To expect them to park block(s) away from the downtown building and fight the weather to get to and from the game? I don't see it happening.

Now I know the aim is to get young people to go to games. The last thing The Kitchener Rangers want is a large percentage of their fan base being senior aged people as is the case now. These are not people who are really free with their money at the concession stands or at the bar. They would much rather weed these people out sooner than later.

What you're missing is The Aud is not just for the Rangers. They are the main tenant. There are a lot of unused dates at The Aud. That's missed revenue. Your comments about who spends what aren't accurate, even now. It's the seniors who keep their wallets closed at a game.

The ION will be transporting people to the games when it's downtown. Seniors will love being dropped off and picked up by the front doors of the New Aud. It will be cheaper and easier to take transit to a game than your car.

Look, I absolutely LOVE The Aud. It's a gem, but just like Maple Leaf Gardens, there will be a day when it's time is over. It's far down the road right now, but the day will come.

 

[bobber]

What you're missing is The Aud is not just for the Rangers. They are the main tenant. There are a lot of unused dates at The Aud. That's missed revenue. Your comments about who spends what aren't accurate, even now. It's the seniors who keep their wallets closed at a game.

The ION will be transporting people to the games when it's downtown. Seniors will love being dropped off and picked up by the front doors of the New Aud. It will be cheaper and easier to take transit to a game than your car.

Look, I absolutely LOVE The Aud. It's a gem, but just like Maple Leaf Gardens, there will be a day when it's time is over. It's far down the road right now, but the day will come.

Sheila I disagree that seniors will love being picked up and dropped off by the ION at the doors. Most seniors and others have to drive a distance or travel by bus to get to an ION stop somewhere. In winter it would be difficult on a freezing cold night to be transferring around late after a game. Also as a senior we spent a fortune at the Aud in our 20 years as STHs. Just never got into the booze thing.

 

[EvenSteven]

What you're missing is The Aud is not just for the Rangers. They are the main tenant. There are a lot of unused dates at The Aud. That's missed revenue. Your comments about who spends what aren't accurate, even now. It's the seniors who keep their wallets closed at a game.

The ION will be transporting people to the games when it's downtown. Seniors will love being dropped off and picked up by the front doors of the New Aud. It will be cheaper and easier to take transit to a game than your car.

Look, I absolutely LOVE The Aud. It's a gem, but just like Maple Leaf Gardens, there will be a day when it's time is over. It's far down the road right now, but the day will come.

My comments are accurate. I said that the brass want the seniors out because they don't spend. They want younger people at the games who'll drop 50-100 bucks a night on concessions and booze

The ION will be dropping fans off at the doors of a new building downtown. Seniors and others, if they live along the LRT route will be fine and happy. Those that don't, won't. Many seniors live in areas like Northwest Waterloo, Columbia West, and other parts of town that the LRT doesn't service. What time will they have to leave their homes to take whatever bus to whatever LRT station to get to a game on time? 4pm?

There are empty dates at the Aud now. Just because you build something downtown doesn't mean all those dates will be filled. Some will I suppose.

We don't "need" a new building. We "want" a new building. There's a big difference.
London needed one.
Guelph needed one.
Kingston needed one.
Oshawa needed one.
Sarnia needed one.
Niagara needed one.
And so on.
We do not "need" one.

Will enough of those empty dates be filled to justify the cost of a new building that we don't need?

If it's other people's money you're spending, then I guess the answer is yes.

 

[aresknights]

Interesting convo. I've been to the Aud a few times. I liked the location, building, atmosphere (althou its been a couple years) as an outta towner.

There was a lot of resistance and doubt about Londons downtown move from the Gardens out by the highway. All of them were legit concerns pre move, parking, hassle, location, size..... All quickly proved unwarranted.
Granted the cities locations "may be" a factor but Londons arena ( and ability to attract events of all kinds thru the year has really helped the core)
Bottom line is ya got to fill the building with more than 30+ hockey games a year to make any 10000 seat plus arena work. You need a management team with connections.

Itll be interesting to follow as an outsider.

(As a season tic holder since the old arena, I was hesitant about the move but quickly embraced it. Parking, getting out of downtown, other concerns weren't the issue I thought) 20 min after the game, concert, disney show, or monster trucks you would never know any was there. Everyone is gone)

 

[EvenSteven]

Don't disagree with the present location. The entire site though could be redeveloped with added attractions. A new ball field and stands with a Double A or A team as major tenant. Having this site and building under utilized seems like a waste. Some of the downtown attraction to an arena is getting more hours use out of it...conventions and trade shows with hotels close by.
Even if a new arena is needed to be built, there is plenty enough of room on this site to build the new one on it then demo the existing. There would just be some hardship for a cpl seasons for parking issues.

I like the idea of redeveloping the entire site. I'd go a step further and create a bigger "block" including restaurants, a hotel or two on site. All that and the stuff you mentioned on your post.

My bigger "block" would border the expressway, Ottawa St, King St and Borden. A little expropriation would be in order but that never stopped city builders in the past from getting stuff built like the expressway, highway eight widening and of course, the LRT.

The plaza and old car dealership wouldn't be a problem. Some home owners would have to be up rooted.

All that could be done and still keep most of the current parking.

 

[Bjorn Le]

I think a new arena is closer than people might think. People are talking about it at the municipal level, and the city definitely wants it. It's part necessity; the Aud is not good enough to attract marque events. It's also part prestige. KW⁠—soon to be one city if the provincial review of municipalities swings the way I think it will⁠— has long since surpassed Hamilton as the provinces third biggest economic hub, after two much larger metros in the GTA and Ottawa. The LRT was as much showing that Waterloo Region is a top city as it was creating a new and efficient way for people to get around. An arena, alongside the ongoing downtown core revitalization, helps further this goal.

I know the city would rather the arena be downtown (likely as close to Kitchener City Hall as possible), but the region is easy enough to traverse that any location near major thoroughfares that are relatively close to the expressway (<10 min drive) would work well. I was always partial to a Lansdowne-style development project at the Budd site, though I don't know if there's room for that with the current redevelopment plans going on there (a medical office tower and a medium sized tool and die factory). King Street and SportsWorld would probably be the best location is the city was going to build an NHL-sized arena however. It's already a destination hub with dozens of shops and restaurants, it will sit right on an LRT line (stage two), and there's easy access to the Expressway and the 401.

 

[bobber]

Years ago at practice I sat with Fixter's dad. He said they are in their having a meeting about building a new 12000 seat arena out by the 401. If they ever do build one I like Ward's idea of repurposing the present site.

 

[bobber]

I think a new arena is closer than people might think. People are talking about it at the municipal level, and the city definitely wants it. It's part necessity; the Aud is not good enough to attract marque events. It's also part prestige. KW⁠—soon to be one city if the provincial review of municipalities swings the way I think it will⁠— has long since surpassed Hamilton as the provinces third biggest economic hub, after two much larger metros in the GTA and Ottawa. The LRT was as much showing that Waterloo Region is a top city as it was creating a new and efficient way for people to get around. An arena, alongside the ongoing downtown core revitalization, helps further this goal.

I know the city would rather the arena be downtown (likely as close to Kitchener City Hall as possible), but the region is easy enough to traverse that any location near major thoroughfares that are relatively close to the expressway (<10 min drive) would work well. I was always partial to a Lansdowne-style development project at the Budd site, though I don't know if there's room for that with the current redevelopment plans going on there (a medical office tower and a medium sized tool and die factory). King Street and SportsWorld would probably be the best location is the city was going to build an NHL-sized arena however. It's already a destination hub with dozens of shops and restaurants, it will sit right on an LRT line (stage two), and there's easy access to the Expressway and the 401.

I imagine being proactive the powers that be discuss these things. With the money spent recently to update the Aud I can't see the city spending the millions it would take to build a new arena. It's risky. If you build it they will come sometimes only happens in movies.

 

[EvenSteven]

Years ago at practice I sat with Fixter's dad. He said they are in their having a meeting about building a new 12000 seat arena out by the 401. If they ever do build one I like Ward's idea of repurposing the present site.

I think that what you were talking about here is when they approached the city about building a new building before they did the latest expansion. But they were shot down because they had already committed to investing a ton of money into the LRT meaning there was no money left for a project like a new building.

I also like Ward's idea of re-purposing the present site. In my post afterwards, I put a suggestion out there expanding that site over as far as King Street. If we are talking not about the present but 20 to 30 years down the road, the vision of the downtown/ LRT, then maybe the following is possible.

Who's to say that the downtown can't be expanded upon. They could expand the actual downtown from King Street all the way to Ottawa Street. That stretch of King Street between Scott Street and Ottawa is a little on the dingy side - especially the closer you get to Scott Street. Turning that stretch into an upgraded downtown where hotels, shops, restaurants, condos, etc would extend the downtown right up to where I suggested extending the present Auditorium site.

All the sudden, presto-chango, we build a new building on the current site and it's part of the downtown.

 

[robertmac43]

Can someone jog my memory? The renovation was 2012-13, correct?

 

[EvenSteven]

Can someone jog my memory? The renovation was 2012-13, correct?

I believe it was leading into the 50th anniversary of the Rangers. That's the season where Steve Spott promised we would contend for a memorial cup. They got the renovation done in time for an expected long playoff run.

 

[Rangers True Blue]

Ditto and ditto. That's how I became a fan and that's why my grandkids today are fans.

City planners are in a dreamworld if they think everybody will ditch their cars and rely on public transit. I suppose if you live along the LRT line and wherever you work/shop/and spend your leisure time, is along the LRT, then maybe. But if you live in the suburbs, relying on LRT is an inconvenience

Exactly. And how many people take city transit to the game now? And I'd like to see the survey that shows "seniors" don't spend money. That's a myth not fact.

 

[EvenSteven]

I think that what you were talking about here is when they approached the city about building a new building before they did the latest expansion. But they were shot down because they had already committed to investing a ton of money into the LRT meaning there was no money left for a project like a new building.

I also like Ward's idea of re-purposing the present site. In my post afterwards, I put a suggestion out there expanding that site over as far as King Street. If we are talking not about the present but 20 to 30 years down the road, the vision of the downtown/ LRT, then maybe the following is possible.

Who's to say that the downtown can't be expanded upon. They could expand the actual downtown from King Street all the way to Ottawa Street. That stretch of King Street between Scott Street and Ottawa is a little on the dingy side - especially the closer you get to Scott Street. Turning that stretch into an upgraded downtown where hotels, shops, restaurants, condos, etc would extend the downtown right up to where I suggested extending the present Auditorium site.

All the sudden, presto-chango, we build a new building on the current site and it's part of the downtown.

Also, with a complex area the size that I suggested bordered by the expressway to Ottawa Street to King Street to Borden, you would have room for a really nice new building, current parking volume, the other things I suggested would go there, Ward's new baseball complex and even space set up for a Jurassic Park type of possibility - all part of the new, extended downtown.