Injury Report: Jumbo, Pavs...

[Kcoyote3]

@Kcoyote3

I'm not going to quote all the videos, but I will give my opinion on them.

First, the OT winner. The pass Labanc made, was not that special. It was the fact that he got LV to bite super hard on him shooting, and got everyone out of position. Otherwise, the pass was just a cross ice pass through an open lane. Good play for sure, not a spectacular pass. PPG, lots of time and space. (sorry this was JoeThorntonRooster who posted that so you might not agree its a good example of his passing, based on some of the videos though, I imagine you think it was though)

Meier vs Mtl- PPG lots of time and space- Good pass. Nothing crazy, but definitely good.
Cooch vs NYR. ES lots of time and space- Not really a great pass at all. He was wide open, Cooch was wide open. Almost anyone could make that pass.
Pavs vs CGY- PPG lots of time and space- simple cross ice pass, props for getting nice speed on the pass, but that's about it.
Jumbo vs VAN- PPG lots of time and space- same as the playoff OT winner, pass was open, but good job on the fake shot.
Cooch vs OTT- ES less space and time- Good pass, nice sauce, just the right speed so cooch could quickly settle it, and did it very quickly after getting a pass from cooch.
Hertl vs BUF- PPG lots of time and space- Another good pass. He had a ton of time, but a defender did close the gap, and he made a great pass to Hertl on his tape, through the defenders legs.
Tierney vs MIN- ES lots of time and space- On a roll now, another good pass. Through the legs of the defender, and more importantly, good defensive play to begin that whole sequence. Wonderful stuff
Cooch vs COL- PPG minimal time and space- Pass through open lane again, good quick decision though.
Cooch vs ANA- PPG very little time and space- Good pass, through the defender, with very little time.

So what do we see here. Generally speaking, Labanc is able to complete passes to open players, on the PP when he has tons of time and space. He can make some nice passes. Not one instance of Labanc making a nice play with a player draped on him, or from the walls. Just open ice passes to usually open players. Almost every pass was a forehand pass, and outside of a couple where he looked off the goalie, he didnt make any amazing blind passes, or behind the back passes, or thread the needle through more than 1 defender, or anything that would make me go "wow, what a pass!!".

If I see anything from these examples, its that Labanc has good vision, and is able to pass well enough to complete passes through lanes that he sees. These were all things I already knew about him, and as far as passing goes, he did nothing that any of Pavs, Burns, Thornton, Cooch, Hertl, Donskoi, Boedker etc could not do. My issue with Labanc is he doesn't take games over like Meier (why I am not arguing against him on the top line nearly as much) can, he can find open lanes, and pass through them, but he doesnt seem to make his own lanes very often, by either outworking, outmuscling, or outwitting the opponent. So yeah, its obviously great that he finds open lanes, not everyone is great at doing that, but he doesn't strike me as some wizard passer, beat only by Thornton on the team.

Very good breakdown of the videos. Seems that he has a few go-to plays on the PP, the fake shot closing in on the goalie and the followup cross ice seam pass, or the bank in off a player's stick at the front of the net. Seems like you found my favorite of those videos which was the pass to Tierney. Just such a good pass through the defender and pinpoint accuracy on it. Labanc's strong suit is definitely his accuracy in both shooting and passing. Problem is since he's still a young player he hasn't developed a quick enough release on his shot, or at least where it should be as an NHL goal scorer. He takes way too much time trying to set up. Hopefully he can fix the time it takes to release the puck, because his wrist shot is very hard and very accurate.

So that leaves us with a breakdown of Labanc that I would put in an NHL 18 style as:

Offensive Awareness/Vision: A-
Passing: A-
Shot Accuracy: B+
Shot Strength: B+
Release/Shot selection: D+
Forechecking: D
Cycle: B-
Speed: C
Acceleration: C
Defensive Awareness: D- (it's pretty bad. It got better, and you could tell he worked on it throughout the season, but he often looks like a lost puppy in the defensive zone)
Physicality: D
Endurance: C- (tailed off noticeably as the season went on, looked like he had tired legs a lot of the time)

The good news is, he has ENOUGH speed. It would certainly elevate his game if he could get faster, but he's about average among NHL forwards. I personally don't see it getting much better at 22 years of age though. The other good news is, endurance, physicality, forechecking, defensive positioning, all the "little" things that make a player a responsible day in and day out forward can be fixed or at least improved upon with time and a lot of effort. Personally from the growth I've seen of Labanc all the way back to juniors, he's a VERY hardworking guy. You don't go from being drafted in the 6th round, a nothing forward, to winning the OHL scoring title and then playing on a Sharks team 2-3 years later without being a hard worker.

 

[Dicdonya]

Very good breakdown of the videos. Seems that he has a few go-to plays on the PP, the fake shot closing in on the goalie and the followup cross ice seam pass, or the bank in off a player's stick at the front of the net. Seems like you found my favorite of those videos which was the pass to Tierney. Just such a good pass through the defender and pinpoint accuracy on it. Labanc's strong suit is definitely his accuracy in both shooting and passing. Problem is since he's still a young player he hasn't developed a quick enough release on his shot, or at least where it should be as an NHL goal scorer. He takes way too much time trying to set up. Hopefully he can fix the time it takes to release the puck, because his wrist shot is very hard and very accurate.

So that leaves us with a breakdown of Labanc that I would put in an NHL 18 style as:

Offensive Awareness/Vision: A-
Passing: A-
Shot Accuracy: B+
Shot Strength: B+
Release/Shot selection: D+
Forechecking: D
Cycle: B-
Speed: C
Acceleration: C
Defensive Awareness: D- (it's pretty bad. It got better, and you could tell he worked on it throughout the season, but he often looks like a lost puppy in the defensive zone)
Physicality: D
Endurance: C- (tailed off noticeably as the season went on, looked like he had tired legs a lot of the time)

The good news is, he has ENOUGH speed. It would certainly elevate his game if he could get faster, but he's about average among NHL forwards. I personally don't see it getting much better at 22 years of age though. The other good news is, endurance, physicality, forechecking, defensive positioning, all the "little" things that make a player a responsible day in and day out forward can be fixed or at least improved upon with time and a lot of effort. Personally from the growth I've seen of Labanc all the way back to juniors, he's a VERY hardworking guy. You don't go from being drafted in the 6th round, a nothing forward, to winning the OHL scoring title and then playing on a Sharks team 2-3 years later without being a hard worker.

Well I am very happy to hear we both saw generally the same things. It seems odd that we have been disagreeing in this thread then, but that goes to show you that different opinions are different I guess, and me errantly saying he is horrible on the PP might have helped with the disagreeing part haha.

I agree that his speed is fine, but if he could reach another gear he could really be something. I don't think strength will ever be his game, so speed needs to be his ticket to awesome town. He pretty shifty, and we already agree he has great vision, if he could open up more space for himself with speed, I could see him doing even better. I do agree he does not have an effort issue, and that is great, because although I may disagree with some on his ceiling, I do think his work ethic will get him to whatever his ceiling is.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Well I am very happy to hear we both saw generally the same things. It seems odd that we have been disagreeing in this thread then, but that goes to show you that different opinions are different I guess, and me errantly saying he is horrible on the PP might have helped with the disagreeing part haha.

I agree that his speed is fine, but if he could reach another gear he could really be something. I don't think strength will ever be his game, so speed needs to be his ticket to awesome town. He pretty shifty, and we already agree he has great vision, if he could open up more space for himself with speed, I could see him doing even better. I do agree he does not have an effort issue, and that is great, because although I may disagree with some on his ceiling, I do think his work ethic will get him to whatever his ceiling is.

Funny thing is, I didn't actually disagree with you on the whole not putting Labanc on the first line thing haha. Just the PP bit. I think he would be alright on the first line if we landed a Tavares, but there are better players that could make the top line more effective in that scenario, and he again doesn't have the speed that Donskoi has to make a first line gel with slower players like Pavelski/Thornton up there if we don't get Tavares.

I do get the argument though, sheltering younger talent in Meier/Labanc on a line with Tavares while spreading out the talent on other lines. Sometimes that works, but maybe overloading could as well.

Personally I think he fits best with Couture. He was doing a lot of damage this year on his line before they went cold. It seems only natural to put a set-up man for Couture. He just has to improve the other portions of his game to keep up against quality competition in a Hertl-Couture-Labanc scenario. Seems more of a natural fit on that line than Tierney's line as well.

Which is why I'd go:

Meier-Tavares-Pavelski (Pavs-Meier already do great work together from what we've seen)
Hertl-Couture-Labanc (I really like Hertl-Cooch, and I think this gives two great scoring lines, Hertl sheltering Labanc's defensive deficiencies)
Donskoi-Thornton-Boedker (Speedy wings, defensively responsible center in Tierney (if no Tavares), or playmaking center in Thornton (if yes Tavares))
Sorensen-Tierney-Goodrow (speedy wing Sorensen, Goodrow in that powerforward mold with less skill, and either Tierney or Gambrell centering it, if we don't get both Thornton and Tavares).

Really makes you wonder what happens with the overload of forwards (trading Tierney, Boedker, Karlsson, etc.) or who gets moved to the fourth line if we sign Thornton and Tavares.

 

[Dicdonya]

Funny thing is, I didn't actually disagree with you on the whole not putting Labanc on the first line thing haha. Just the PP bit. I think he would be alright on the first line if we landed a Tavares, but there are better players that could make the top line more effective in that scenario, and he again doesn't have the speed that Donskoi has to make a first line gel with slower players like Pavelski/Thornton up there if we don't get Tavares.

I do get the argument though, sheltering younger talent in Meier/Labanc on a line with Tavares while spreading out the talent on other lines. Sometimes that works, but maybe overloading could as well.

Personally I think he fits best with Couture. He was doing a lot of damage this year on his line before they went cold. It seems only natural to put a set-up man for Couture. He just has to improve the other portions of his game to keep up against quality competition in a Hertl-Couture-Labanc scenario. Seems more of a natural fit on that line than Tierney's line as well.

Which is why I'd go:

Meier-Tavares-Pavelski (Pavs-Meier already do great work together from what we've seen)
Hertl-Couture-Labanc (I really like Hertl-Cooch, and I think this gives two great scoring lines, Hertl sheltering Labanc's defensive deficiencies)
Donskoi-Thornton-Boedker (Speedy wings, defensively responsible center in Tierney (if no Tavares), or playmaking center in Thornton (if yes Tavares))
Sorensen-Tierney-Goodrow (speedy wing Sorensen, Goodrow in that powerforward mold with less skill, and either Tierney or Gambrell centering it, if we don't get both Thornton and Tavares).

Really makes you wonder what happens with the overload of forwards (trading Tierney, Boedker, Karlsson, etc.) or who gets moved to the fourth line if we sign Thornton and Tavares.

Yup agree completely that he looked to have the best chemistry with Cooch. Way more than Cooch/Hertl have, even if they did fine as a pairing.

If all we managed to do next year was sign our guys, and not get Tavares, or any other major player. I would still want Hertl reunited with the Joes, as I think they will need him, and he really gets an offensive boost from Thornton due to their playstyles.

Then maybe do like Meier with Cooch/Labanc. Lots of speed, potential, passing ability, shooting ability and some grit from Meier.

Third then would be Boedker-Tierney-Donskoi. All capable players, who should dominate most third lines in the league, and quite a few 2nd lines even.

Fourth would be whoever earns those spots, or Fehr at center if they retain him.

Its really hard to speculate on Tavares lines, because so many players need to leave the team to create the space for him. We all might want guys like Karlsson, Boedker, Martin to be the ones going, but DW may not want the same, or be able to actually offload those players for a reasonable price.

Whatever the case is, I feel like DW is positioned for a crazy off season.

 

[matt trick]

Why is Labanc on the top line? How has he earned that spot in any way? Do you really think he can hang against other teams absolute best players who come out to stop Cooch/Tavares?

Why is our current 1st/2nd best forward on the Third line?

That 2nd line might have played well for a stretch this year, but do you really think Pavs at center for 82 games is really the best use of him? Do you really think he keeps up the energy needed to play the type of hockey they were at the end of the year, for 82 games? Those wingers play with speed, Pavs has to keep up, I highly doubt he can do that anywhere near a full season and into the playoffs. I would argue he wasn't able to for less than half a season this year+playoffs.

Not just you, but lots of people seem to want to "balance" the lines. I have zero idea why. Outside of Pitt, who only had Kessel on the 3rd line, because he wasn't clicking anywhere else until then, what Cup winning team has had a clear 1st/2nd line player on the their 3rd/4th line purposefully to "balance" their lineup?
Even the Sharks in their best years, had those best years because they stacked their lineups top heavy. Their problem was that after those top lines, they had total crap for depth.

IF we managed to get all of Kane,Thornton,and Tavares next year. We should stack our Top 6 with any combo of: Tavares,Kane,Cooch,Hertl,Thornton and Pavs.

That leaves the absolutely enviable choice of filling our bottom 6 with some mix of: Donskoi,Meier,Labanc,Tierney, Sorensen. Then filling the final spot with any number of players like Goodrow, Gambrell, or any prospect that earns their spot on the team over the offseason, or throughout the year. That is atleast 3 clear as day top 6 forwards in our bottom 6 already. That is depth in my book, without trying to overthink the lineup.

Not only do we have the potential for a unstoppable top 6, but also amazing skill/depth in the bottom 6.

In fact we have too much depth, where really we should ship out atleast 1 wing for a prospect, or upgrade on D.

My bad, late in responding!

If you get Thornton, Tavares, and Kane there are a ton of options. Load up the top 6 is fine too! I'd mix it up. I also like:

Kane-Tavares-Donskoi
Couture-Hertl-Pavelski
Meier-Thornton-Labanc

I like Labanc with Tavares because I'd use Hettl against other teams best line, and play Tavares, Labanc, and Couture in heavy o zone starts with Burns, ideally against second lines. With respect to the Pavelski at center you can easily move Hertl there, though I wouldn't play Kane with Hertl, as I feel like Meier, Pavelski, Couture, and Donskoi are all superior in a defensive/d to o role.

I'd want Tavares to play with either Kane, Couture, or Hertl, as they each bring elite talent (shooting, sniping, or puck possession). I personally feel Couture is the best fit. With respect to Labanc, I feel like he is an excellent passer and would seeing the greatest boost from Tavares.

The fact of the matter is Tavares, Hertl, Couture, Kane, Pavelski, and a healthyish Thornton are all first liners. Any of two of them should produce at a high rate with guys like Meier, Donskoi, or Labanc. Candidly, as long as Labanc/kane isn't next to Hertl on a shutdown line I'm happy!

Who was the last team to have 6 first liners and "filler" that's legit 2nd liners?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

My bad, late in responding!

If you get Thornton, Tavares, and Kane there are a ton of options. Load up the top 6 is fine too! I'd mix it up. I also like:

Kane-Tavares-Donskoi
Couture-Hertl-Pavelski
Meier-Thornton-Labanc

I like Labanc with Tavares because I'd use Hettl against other teams best line, and play Tavares, Labanc, and Couture in heavy o zone starts with Burns, ideally against second lines. With respect to the Pavelski at center you can easily move Hertl there, though I wouldn't play Kane with Hertl, as I feel like Meier, Pavelski, Couture, and Donskoi are all superior in a defensive/d to o role.

I'd want Tavares to play with either Kane, Couture, or Hertl, as they each bring elite talent (shooting, sniping, or puck possession). I personally feel Couture is the best fit. With respect to Labanc, I feel like he is an excellent passer and would seeing the greatest boost from Tavares.

The fact of the matter is Tavares, Hertl, Couture, Kane, Pavelski, and a healthyish Thornton are all first liners. Any of two of them should produce at a high rate with guys like Meier, Donskoi, or Labanc. Candidly, as long as Labanc/kane isn't next to Hertl on a shutdown line I'm happy!

Who was the last team to have 6 first liners and "filler" that's legit 2nd liners?

Somebody whose first liners were better than a Evander Kane and a 39 year old Thornton. Both of those guys could play at a first line level, but both also have injury concerns and might not be at that level next season. Pavelski’s ability to drive play at ES at this stage of his career is also suspect for a “first liner” but his numbers don’t lie so I would say it’s fair to call him that.

I agree that it would be an exciting forward group with all of those guys. But personally I would still go:

Meier-Tavares-LaBanc
Couture-Hertl-Donskoi
Kane-Thornton-Pavelski

 

[Sysreq]

Kane - Thornton - Pavelski
Couture - Tavares - Hertl
Timo - Tierney - Donskoi

 

[LadyStanley]

Despite another knee surgery, Sharks star Joe Thornton still...

Jumbo claims he's 100% and well rested.

 

[Barrie22]

Despite another knee surgery, Sharks star Joe Thornton still...

Jumbo claims he's 100% and well rested.

Something he probably hasn't been in the past 20 years lol.

 

[Alwalys]

last time he was, we went to the finals

 

[Juxtaposer]

Jumbo says he’s 100% every year.

 

[WTFetus]

Jumbo says he’s 100% every year.

Seriously. I don't believe a thing Thornton says.