Josh Manson: The Best Defenseman You’ve Never Heard of

[Kalv]

Interesting that Manson and Stoner are leading the corsi (which leads to marvelous overreaction by stat geeks ).
I guess they just step back on the ice while allowing their partners (Fowler and Vatanen) do their thing offensively and taking off any breakaway options for oppositions. Meanwhile Fowler and Vatanen are sometimes double shifted for a tougher opposition which drives down their corsi.

Could this be the logical explenation for the shot diffrential thing? If not this then there certainly is some logical explanation that points to the holes in that all statistic thing.

 

[eternalbedhead]

Interesting that Manson and Stoner are leading the corsi (which leads to marvelous overreaction by stat geeks ).
I guess they just step back on the ice while allowing their partners (Fowler and Vatanen) do their thing offensively and taking off any breakaway options for oppositions. Meanwhile Fowler and Vatanen are sometimes double shifted for a tougher opposition which drives down their corsi.

Could this be the logical explenation for the shot diffrential thing? If not this then there certainly is some logical explanation that points to the holes in that all statistic thing.

Stoner >>>> Lindholm

He's finally worth that contract!

Zone start percentage seems to be ignored a lot when I see advanced numbers, which is stupid. High defensive zone starts + bad faceoff-taker (not saying we have that lol) = a Corsi nightmare, even if we're talking about a defensive stalwart. He gets started a ton in the defensive zone, his center keeps losing faceoffs, so the other team always gets some extra shots off without him having any opportunity to have his say about it. Cam Fowler got a lot of D-zone starts last year, which, compiled with playing with an awful D-partner, didn't help his case with the advanced stats. Lindholm didn't start as much in the D-zone and had the benefit of a legitimate NHL defender for a partner.

Also, on the topic of Bieksa, I'll note that Bieksa has tanked Lindholm's Corsi (come on Carlyle, you're screwing over his trade value! ) while I think the reason Fowler's Corsi has come up has more to do with not being with a human pylon for once and actually playing with a legitimate defensive partner rather than All-Star Manson carrying Fowler to victory every night.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

he's good but if there is a sucker team out there that overvalues corsi and the like and we could get a big return i'd do it. i don't think he's as good as those numbers say with the penalties he takes, and how he will sometimes go way out of position for a hit.

that said i like him very much and he is a good top 4 dman

 

[Ducks in a row]

Stoner >>>> Lindholm

He's finally worth that contract!

Zone start percentage seems to be ignored a lot when I see advanced numbers, which is stupid. High defensive zone starts + bad faceoff-taker (not saying we have that lol) = a Corsi nightmare, even if we're talking about a defensive stalwart. He gets started a ton in the defensive zone, his center keeps losing faceoffs, so the other team always gets some extra shots off without him having any opportunity to have his say about it. Cam Fowler got a lot of D-zone starts last year, which, compiled with playing with an awful D-partner, didn't help his case with the advanced stats. Lindholm didn't start as much in the D-zone and had the benefit of a legitimate NHL defender for a partner.

Also, on the topic of Bieksa, I'll note that Bieksa has tanked Lindholm's Corsi (come on Carlyle, you're screwing over his trade value! ) while I think the reason Fowler's Corsi has come up has more to do with not being with a human pylon for once and actually playing with a legitimate defensive partner rather than All-Star Manson carrying Fowler to victory every night.

Yep advanced stat watchers don't consider nearly enough they just want to think they know something about a player without really needing to watch.

 

[eternalbedhead]

Yep advanced stat watchers don't consider nearly enough they just want to think they know something about a player without really needing to watch.

There are good apples who use it as a supplement, not a base, and actually understand the stats they're using, but yes, the million people shoving Cam Fowler's CA/60 down our throats last season without having watched a minute of his play were annoying as hell

 

[Ducks in a row]

There are good apples who use it as a supplement, not a base, and actually understand the stats they're using, but yes, the million people shoving Cam Fowler's CA/60 down our throats last season without having watched a minute of his play were annoying as hell

Yea I couldn't stand all the trashing of him from people who don't watch him much and get more annoyed when they claim they do and spout out things like he is just a offensive defensive who is a liability in his own zone and only use advanced stats to try to prove it.

 

[Trojans86]

This is hilarious. Leave the writeups on Ducks players to the guys who watch every single Ducks game, not the guys who read the charts or the gus who get notes from buddies.

 

[Spazkat]

Stoner >>>> Lindholm

He's finally worth that contract!

Zone start percentage seems to be ignored a lot when I see advanced numbers, which is stupid. High defensive zone starts + bad faceoff-taker (not saying we have that lol) = a Corsi nightmare, even if we're talking about a defensive stalwart. He gets started a ton in the defensive zone, his center keeps losing faceoffs, so the other team always gets some extra shots off without him having any opportunity to have his say about it. Cam Fowler got a lot of D-zone starts last year, which, compiled with playing with an awful D-partner, didn't help his case with the advanced stats. Lindholm didn't start as much in the D-zone and had the benefit of a legitimate NHL defender for a partner.

Also, on the topic of Bieksa, I'll note that Bieksa has tanked Lindholm's Corsi (come on Carlyle, you're screwing over his trade value! ) while I think the reason Fowler's Corsi has come up has more to do with not being with a human pylon for once and actually playing with a legitimate defensive partner rather than All-Star Manson carrying Fowler to victory every night.

This pretty much. Manson is not what saved Cam, altho pairing with him rather than Bieksa is an upgrade for anyone. I think its mostly things Fowler worked on over the summer , plus Manson, combined with a way better distribution of O-zone starts. Looking at Corsica they show Cam having approximately the same o-n-d zone start ratio as Vatanen for this year, where last year his zone starts were more in line with Kes. That combination is bound to improve anyone's stats.

 

[Paul4587]

This pretty much. Manson is not what saved Cam, altho pairing with him rather than Bieksa is an upgrade for anyone. I think its mostly things Fowler worked on over the summer , plus Manson, combined with a way better distribution of O-zone starts. Looking at Corsica they show Cam having approximately the same o-n-d zone start ratio as Vatanen for this year, where last year his zone starts were more in line with Kes. That combination is bound to improve anyone's stats.

Fowler's underlying stats are actually worse now than they were last year. Just his relative stats are better likely because Lindholm wasn't in the lineup pushing everyone elses relative stats down. More proof that those hero charts are a load of garbage.

 

[xxreact9]

"primarily, manson is a fantastic shutdown defender, and pairing him with fowler has turned fowler from a defensive liability into half of one of the best shutdown pairings in the nhl."

just plain wrong.

lol..

 

[snarktacular]

A, B, C, D, and E are all completely independent and are 55% true.

Combining them all together, surely that must mean I'm over 100% correct?