Jonathan Woes

[DontToewzMeBro]

With his contract he's taking a lot of flack.

After a down year (basically he had a Bergeron type season) with 58 points, do you think he will rebound and have a big year?

I really hope he gets to play with some talent and has a season like the lockout year.

What do you forsee for Toews this year ?

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[hockeydoug]

I thought I remembered him saying last year that he didn't train as hard or the same way. I think he'll be stronger next season and by the end of the year he'll be higher up there in terms of actual scoring production.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I'm not going to let one down year count him out for me. I'm fully expecting a bounceback year.

 

[SAADfather]

I'd bet pretty much all my earthly possessions on the captain having a bounce back year.

For having by far his worst year as a pro - he still scored 28 goals. Exactly how many he's scored in each of the last two years. He got off to a horrid start and seemed to pick up a little steam down the stretch. He gets a pass because he by far plays the toughest minutes out of any forward on the team. Three deep runs in a row will do that to you. Kopitar (who plays roughly the same minutes and is an extremely comparable player to Toews) had a down year in 2015 after they went to the WCF, then the Cup in back to back years. He bounced back quite nicely last year.

People also tend to forget how much he was weighed down by linemates (hense the low assist total). Hossa couldn't finish to save his life and Toews went threw a stretch of games where his linemates were Shaw and Garbutt!

I'm not saying the blame is all on his linemates either. Toews was not up to par last year but I think a lot of that can be attributed to fatigue/not training much last offseason. He seems to be training like a mad man this offseason. Put him with some actual offensive talent and he'll be back in the 65-70pt range for sure. Toews is actually the player i'm least worried about "bouncing back". That title goes to Seabrook.

 

[Sarava]

I think he'll bounce back. Nice, long summer for a change.... and he looks ripped when you see some of the pictures of him working out. Also the Hawks know he can't carry a line of scrubs like Kane can. Hopefully they won't put him in that situation again.

 

[bwana63]

Jonny's on a mission this season. We're not worthy.

 

[WJSN]

Very disappointed in his overall performance last season. He better bounce back. No more excuses. I don't care how much his linemates sucks or how much defensive responsibility he's got. He's the highest paid player in the league FFS he needs to get his **** straight and play like one.

 

[ndgt10]

He's not reallying a scorer. More of an intangible guy.

 

[Blackhawks]

Obviously whatever I say will be frowned upon because these days there is a lack of logical thought and an excess of emotionally driven arguments. Realistically, Toews needs to hit a minimum 40+40 for that cap hit and he is still lacking even with that production, I doubt he hits those numbers and I will believe that "bounce back" season when I see it.

 

[JaegerDice]

He's been the best forward on the team for 7 of the 8 years of his career.

His worst season to date produced 28 goals.

He'll more than likely be fine.

 

[BobbyJet]

I'll probably be criticised for this but what bothers me is that Toews has not owned up to his sub par performance(s) for most of last season. Not that I have heard anyways.

 

[Neo1978]

I'd bet pretty much all my earthly possessions on the captain having a bounce back year.

For having by far his worst year as a pro - he still scored 28 goals. Exactly how many he's scored in each of the last two years. He got off to a horrid start and seemed to pick up a little steam down the stretch. He gets a pass because he by far plays the toughest minutes out of any forward on the team. Three deep runs in a row will do that to you. Kopitar (who plays roughly the same minutes and is an extremely comparable player to Toews) had a down year in 2015 after they went to the WCF, then the Cup in back to back years. He bounced back quite nicely last year.

People also tend to forget how much he was weighed down by linemates (hense the low assist total). Hossa couldn't finish to save his life and Toews went threw a stretch of games where his linemates were Shaw and Garbutt!

I'm not saying the blame is all on his linemates either. Toews was not up to par last year but I think a lot of that can be attributed to fatigue/not training much last offseason. He seems to be training like a mad man this offseason. Put him with some actual offensive talent and he'll be back in the 65-70pt range for sure. Toews is actually the player i'm least worried about "bouncing back". That title goes to Seabrook.

Teammates do make a big difference with players and not just your linemates. Toews' numbers actually went down once Bolland was no longer on the team. Bolland used to always face the other team's top lines. Having to face top end talent all the time impacts a player even one as good as Toews.

And this season the emergence of Anisimov and Panarin also had a pretty big impact. In the past the offensive difference between the Toews and Kane lines weren't all that significant. However, Q really tried to protect the Hawks second line center from tougher defensive matchups. Even in offensive draws. This season Q wasn't worried with Anisimov defensively so the Kane line wasn't being held on the bench waiting for the easier match-ups. So offensive shifts in the past that would get the Toews' line were now getting Kane's line instead.

 

[Blackhawks]

Teammates do make a big difference with players and not just your linemates. Toews' numbers actually went down once Bolland was no longer on the team. Bolland used to always face the other team's top lines. Having to face top end talent all the time impacts a player even one as good as Toews.

And this season the emergence of Anisimov and Panarin also had a pretty big impact. In the past the offensive difference between the Toews and Kane lines weren't all that significant. However, Q really tried to protect the Hawks second line center from tougher defensive matchups. Even in offensive draws. This season Q wasn't worried with Anisimov defensively so the Kane line wasn't being held on the bench waiting for the easier match-ups. So offensive shifts in the past that would get the Toews' line were now getting Kane's line instead.

Umm yes thats why we are not expecting 100 points out of him while being the highest paid player in the league. If he cant get 80 points and shut down top lines then all he deserves is 8 million MAX not a whopping 10.5 Million! Non of that leadership, intangibles bs anymore, true leadership is what Kane displayed on the ice with his mouth shut last year and not even an A on his sweater...

 

[Neo1978]

Umm yes thats why we are not expecting 100 points out of him while being the highest paid player in the league. If he cant get 80 points and shut down top lines then all he deserves is 8 million MAX not a whopping 10.5 Million! Non of that leadership, intangibles bs anymore, true leadership is what Kane displayed on the ice with his mouth shut last year and not even an A on his sweater...

Well, no to pretty much all of that. Kane and Toews' contracts were at the market rate at the time. And then the market dropped out. I mean those contracts were in line with Crosby's numbers without the now illegal years added at the end. You can argue bad timing of when those contracts needed to be renewed. Not sure what else you can really complain about.

As for an 80 point shut down top line center or a 100 point offensive only winger, I'm thinking most in the league would value the center higher. I mean besides the best player in the league (who is above average as a defender) the teams that have won Cups have Selke style players like Toews, Kopiter, Bergeron and Datsyuk on it. You aren't seeing many of the Hart winners outside of Crosby winning the Cup. And the year Kane won the Hart they were bounced in the first round. You really do need, imo, your top center and top Dman playing lights out two way hockey to have a chance.

 

[Blackhawks]

Well, no to pretty much all of that. Kane and Toews' contracts were at the market rate at the time. And then the market dropped out. I mean those contracts were in line with Crosby's numbers without the now illegal years added at the end. You can argue bad timing of when those contracts needed to be renewed. Not sure what else you can really complain about.

As for an 80 point shut down top line center or a 100 point offensive only winger, I'm thinking most in the league would value the center higher. I mean besides the best player in the league (who is above average as a defender) the teams that have won Cups have Selke style players like Toews, Kopiter, Bergeron and Datsyuk on it. You aren't seeing many of the Hart winners outside of Crosby winning the Cup. And the year Kane won the Hart they were bounced in the first round. You really do need, imo, your top center and top Dman playing lights out two way hockey to have a chance.

No they were not, they were based on the "assumption" that the cap will be raised to 75M that next year, GMs that rely on assumptions are bad GMs. But lets assume and say it got to 75M, that is still not the market value for Toews. The cap is 73M(3% difference from the 75M) now and players like Stamkos are getting 8.5M. Remember Toews was signed to that contract TWO years ago and it still looks horrible. That extra 3 Million that he is getting paid will help the team big time. We could have kept TT for at least another year or kept Saad, or not been in a danger of losing another young guy in Panarin. Anyway the excuses for his performance will always be there and the credit for all the cups will always be given to him, if you look at all the teams that won the cup, they were stacked teams, Toews didnt win the cup, he was one player.

 

[BobbyJet]

Well, no to pretty much all of that. Kane and Toews' contracts were at the market rate at the time. And then the market dropped out. I mean those contracts were in line with Crosby's numbers without the now illegal years added at the end. You can argue bad timing of when those contracts needed to be renewed. Not sure what else you can really complain about.

As for an 80 point shut down top line center or a 100 point offensive only winger, I'm thinking most in the league would value the center higher. I mean besides the best player in the league (who is above average as a defender) the teams that have won Cups have Selke style players like Toews, Kopiter, Bergeron and Datsyuk on it. You aren't seeing many of the Hart winners outside of Crosby winning the Cup. And the year Kane won the Hart they were bounced in the first round. You really do need, imo, your top center and top Dman playing lights out two way hockey to have a chance.

BS.... It was pure speculation by Stan and he showed he didn't have the stones to 1/ separate the two players by not offering identical contracts to both 2/ not taking a stand by maxing out what he would pay. It was a major fail that has already cost Hawks dearly and will continue to do so in the current market.

And please don't compare either Hawk player to Sid, who is arguably the best player to ever play this game. Once again I point to Stevie Y and his handling of Stamkos/Hedman. That is what a good GM does. Toews/Kane have Stan wrapped around their baby fingers and have taken full advantage of it. That wimpiness could go down in history as a major reason that Hawks went years after those signings before getting a sniff at the SC again.

 

[JustABlackhawksFan]

I really hope he bounces back next year, because if last year was the start of a bad trend for him, that contract is going to be quite alarming for the foreseeable future.

 

[JaegerDice]

No they were not, they were based on the "assumption" that the cap will be raised to 75M that next year, GMs that rely on assumptions are bad GMs. But lets assume and say it got to 75M, that is still not the market value for Toews. The cap is 73M(3% difference from the 75M) now and players like Stamkos are getting 8.5M. Remember Toews was signed to that contract TWO years ago and it still looks horrible. That extra 3 Million that he is getting paid will help the team big time. We could have kept TT for at least another year or kept Saad, or not been in a danger of losing another young guy in Panarin. Anyway the excuses for his performance will always be there and the credit for all the cups will always be given to him, if you look at all the teams that won the cup, they were stacked teams, Toews didnt win the cup, he was one player.

If the cap rises to 75 million, 10.5 million is absolutely market value for Toews. You're out of your mind if you don't think any number of NHL teams would jump at the chance to pay 3-time cup winning captain and elite 2-way possession monster a mere 14% of the cap. Frankly, there are teams now, under the current cap that would happily take him, they just aren't teams he'd want to waive for. Blackhawks fans are so used to having a team FILLED with stars, we forget there are tons of teams without ANY.

The 'issue' for the Blackhawks is that they have TWO elite players that have been critical to winning 3 cups (never mind the unspoken marketing benefit to the franchise, which is impacting their dollar value as well). In a shocking turn of events, elite players that perform well and win a ton get paid a lot of money, especially when rules have been set to limit the means of bringing down the cap impact.

So yes, there's a squeeze. A squeeze we all knew was coming the day they were signed.

I'd rather have a star signed (let alone 3), then a ton of cap space and no stars available, because they NEVER become available via any means other than the draft. And I don't think the Blackhawks want to tank for 1st overall quite yet.

People are reacting disproportionately because Toews had the first down career of his year. You'd think 7 years worth of elite play would have bought the guy some benefit of the doubt, but I guess not. Read this, it should help with some of the anxiety: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/toews-makes-everyone-around-him-better/

Toews contract remains far less of an issue moving forward than Seabrook's contract, as the latter is not only older (and will be far older when it ends), but because his performance has been on a steady downward trend, rather than coming off a single bad season.

People are freaking out over the wrong contract costing us talent. On-ice performance for cap hit, nobody is harming the Blackhawks more than Seabrook at the moment.

BS.... It was pure speculation by Stan and he showed he didn't have the stones to 1/ separate the two players by not offering identical contracts to both 2/ not taking a stand by maxing out what he would pay. It was a major fail that has already cost Hawks dearly and will continue to do so in the current market.

And please don't compare either Hawk player to Sid, who is arguably the best player to ever play this game. Once again I point to Stevie Y and his handling of Stamkos/Hedman. That is what a good GM does. Toews/Kane have Stan wrapped around their baby fingers and have taken full advantage of it. That wimpiness could go down in history as a major reason that Hawks went years after those signings before getting a sniff at the SC again.

For somebody that has made such a big deal about locker-room chemistry and what not, I'm a little surprised you think taking your two biggest stars, that have contributed equally to the team's success on and off the ice, in 2014 and telling one of them that you value them less in dollars than other would be a good move...

Yes, Stan overpaid and made the deal too quickly. But they were going to get identical contracts regardless, and rightly so.

I'll probably be criticised for this but what bothers me is that Toews has not owned up to his sub par performance(s) for most of last season. Not that I have heard anyways.

I'm finding it difficult to recall Toews ever talking in depth about his own performance, positive or negative. When asked about his performance, success, etc, he pretty much always answers with 'we' and speaks of team performance and success.

I wouldn't expect Toews to go in depth into his performance last season any more than I would any of the seasons he was chewing up and spitting out the competition.

 

[Neo1978]

BS.... It was pure speculation by Stan and he showed he didn't have the stones to 1/ separate the two players by not offering identical contracts to both 2/ not taking a stand by maxing out what he would pay. It was a major fail that has already cost Hawks dearly and will continue to do so in the current market.

And please don't compare either Hawk player to Sid, who is arguably the best player to ever play this game. Once again I point to Stevie Y and his handling of Stamkos/Hedman. That is what a good GM does. Toews/Kane have Stan wrapped around their baby fingers and have taken full advantage of it. That wimpiness could go down in history as a major reason that Hawks went years after those signings before getting a sniff at the SC again.

It is pretty well understood that Kane and Toews' salary were based on the then current market value of the "real" years of Crosby's salary without the "tacked on the end" fake years. Those 9 years come out to an AAV of 10.6M per. Which is why the Hawks numbers came in where they were.

Then the Canadian dollar fell and the rest is history. And trying to say that GM's signing players after the crash are somehow better is just silly. If the market hadn't crashed they would have signed their players in the same market range as Stan had. Again timing is everything.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Yeah Bobby let's compare the T & K deals to Stamkos, a guy who has brought zero cups to Tampa and is a shell of his former self.

 

[Callidusblackhawk]

Yeah Bobby let's compare the T & K deals to Stamkos, a guy who has brought zero cups to Tampa and is a shell of his former self.

Something tells me that if he was still putting up ~55 goals a year his caphit would eclipse Kane and Toews'.

 

[Kathryn Tappen]

I'm not going to let one down year count him out for me. I'm fully expecting a bounceback year.

pretty much this

I have a hard time imagining him not bounce back even a little bit

 

[Blackhawks]

Yeah Bobby let's compare the T & K deals to Stamkos, a guy who has brought zero cups to Tampa and is a shell of his former self.

Teams bring cups not single players, where was Toews and his cup in 2011, 2012, 2014, or 2016? Team did not have enough depth and guess what happened? Eliminated! All the teams that won cups were stacked! Lets not give all credit to Toews here, and Kane very much deserves his 10.5M lets refrain from putting T with K until he is worthy of being put in the same sentence

 

[BobbyJet]

I wouldn't expect Toews to go into a long winded description of his play. It's true he never does - but it would be nice to hear just a simple "I need to be better" from him.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I expect Toews to bounce back, but I think the pendulum has swung a little too far about how "bad" Toews was last year. It was a down year no question, but he had 55 points while still playing good defense with good (not great like normal) possession numbers.

Anyways, I'd expect him to get around 65 points with better possession numbers. I think the long offseason will help him and the rest of the core.