Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

[Pokecheque]

No way did Sakic not have veto power. This is Sakic's team and it has been the entire time. Roy just had an influential voice.

Zib, Radulov and Chabot. Yes, this team would be better.

No offense but you don't know that. The talks between Roy and the club were pretty extensive. Reportedly it wasn't just about pay, it was about how much control he would have. He didn't just have "influence," his title wasn't just Head Coach. Someone on here I think said that Roy actually negotiated the Beauchemin deal exclusively with his agent, Sakic wasn't even involved until it came time to sign.

Also, you don't know for sure if those players would be in Denver now if Roy was still in charge. All we know for sure is that Nick Holden would still be there.

I'm also still not as enamored with Radulov as others on this board, but that discussion can be elsewhere.

 

[Piestany88]

Yes Sakic had veto power but he also respected Roy enough to make decisions since he was the coach afterall

 

[Pokecheque]

That's fine, my point is that we simply don't know for certain who was responsible for what moves when both Sakic and Roy were both in charge, which was kind of the problem. It could be that Sakic signed off on some deals he didn't like out of deference to Roy, and that he later countermanded Roy on a few things and that's what led to the departure. The push to hire Arik Parnass most assuredly played a part as well.

Either way, you can't simply blame Sakic for all the bad moves nor can you blame Roy. There is no one, singular scapegoat...except for Rick Pracey.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

All of Sakic's moves this offseason were good and some of them look even better now + the draft went nicely. However, I have an issue with the moves he didn't make. That being said, Sakic has been making less mistakes lately and getting things right here and there. For the first time the Avs seem to have a plan that makes sense, previously it seemed to change every season.

 

[Pokecheque]

I'm not ready to call him a good GM by any means but nearly all the moves made (and one that wasn't) are looking good. That said...we are only four games in.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

No offense but you don't know that. The talks between Roy and the club were pretty extensive. Reportedly it wasn't just about pay, it was about how much control he would have. He didn't just have "influence," his title wasn't just Head Coach. Someone on here I think said that Roy actually negotiated the Beauchemin deal exclusively with his agent, Sakic wasn't even involved until it came time to sign.

Also, you don't know for sure if those players would be in Denver now if Roy was still in charge. All we know for sure is that Nick Holden would still be there.

I'm also still not as enamored with Radulov as others on this board, but that discussion can be elsewhere.

I don't have to "know". This isn't how things are run. You don't give two people equal power. Someone has a final say.

I'm fully aware of what his title was. Sakic's title was still higher.

If Sakic wasn't involved in dealing with Beauch it's because Sakic was fully on board.

Believe what you want but posters here who know their shit have said those three guys would be here if Roy got his way.

Holden sure was better than Wiercoich, Gelinas and all the other crap Sakic brought in last offseason to replace Holden. Holden, while not a big piece to the puzzle, is another example of Roy making a better choice than Sakic.

That's fine, my point is that we simply don't know for certain who was responsible for what moves when both Sakic and Roy were both in charge, which was kind of the problem. It could be that Sakic signed off on some deals he didn't like out of deference to Roy, and that he later countermanded Roy on a few things and that's what led to the departure. The push to hire Arik Parnass most assuredly played a part as well.

Either way, you can't simply blame Sakic for all the bad moves nor can you blame Roy. There is no one, singular scapegoat...except for Rick Pracey.

Sakic is resposible for everything. He has the final say on everything. Just because it might have been Roy's idea to go after a certain player doesn't ean Sakic wasn't resposible as well.

 

[Pokecheque]

Here's the issue that I'm not quite understanding--you say on one hand that if Roy was completely in charge the Avs would be a much better team yet you're not absolving him of responsibility for the terrible decisions this front office made during his tenure. So far we don't have a ton to go off of in terms of Roy's managerial skills other than his brief tenure in Colorado and some hypotheticals as to who he MIGHT have been able to get.

Also, I don't want to derail the thread but I still don't quite get why people are so over the moon with Alexander Radulov. Dude scored 18 goals with the Habs, which is nothing to shake a stick at but he didn't produce like some dominant offensive powerhouse either. Would he really be making some huge difference in CO?

Frankly I think Roy was a bad coach and a bad evaluator of talent. And this is coming from a guy who is a huge fan of both him and the guy who essentially mentored him, Bob Hartley. The game has moved on from emphasizing big, slow crease-clearers and passive shot-blocking defensive schemes. Roy seems dead-set on building a team that could win back when he was still a player. And I've had the back-and-forth with Hench about his breakout scheme which I thought was patently terrible.

Again, I would like to see St. Patrick back in the NHL running his own team. I miss the guy's personality like crazy. But I think he will fail. I hope he proves me wrong.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Read what I wrote again. I didn't absolve him from anything. You guys are the ones absolving Sakic assuming Roy made all the bad decisions and putting that all on Roy.

And like I said, believe what you want, but guys here who obviously have some insider info have brought up what would have happened, not just might.

The idea that Roy just wanted big slow guys is pretty dumb too. Nobody is going to take over a team and say "ok guys, we want to get slower".

 

[tigervixxxen]

You are right nobody says that but instead they call it veteran leadership

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Nobody builds a team of just veteran leadership either.

 

[Pokecheque]

Nobody builds a team of just veteran leadership either.

You’re right they don’t. What they do is overvalue things like grit/character/size over speed and skill. It’s what utterly destroyed the Sabres and what’s currently killing the Habs.

FTR I didn’t absolve Sakic of anything. He absolutely played a part in all decisions, good and bad. He should get the blame and credit as well.

I’m just of the opinion that Roy will be very, very similar to Bergevin if/when he gets another NHL gig. Obviously he values skill. Everyone does. It’s when you start acquiring players for reasons OTHER than that where it becomes a problem. That’s just my opinion of Roy as a coach/GM. You and others on this board disagree. Again I hope to hell he proves me wrong. I’d be happy to eat crow if he builds a winner.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

He wasn't trying to build a team around grit, character and size either.

Teams need balance. Going for all skill and speed isn't a winning recipe. Roy was just trying to do his best to fill the holes we had in the lineup and trait wise throughtout the team.

Iggy was brought in for his shot and leadership. Two things that we were lacking. Beauchemin was brought in because our left side was terrible and he was better than anyone we had. Both were thought of as some of the best FA available. Soderberg was thought of as one of the best two way FA available. We had just lost Our best two way centers in back to back seasons.

And you are absolving Sakic of somethings. You don't know what those things are exactly. But when you say we don't know who was resposible for what that implies Sakic wasn't resposible for some moves. As GM and God of all hockey operations (or whatever the title is), Sakic is resposible for every single move made.

 

[Pokecheque]

All I said was Sakic signed off on all moves. We don’t know whose idea it was to bring which player in and so forth.

If you want to say Sakic played a part in decisions good and bad I agree with you. So did Roy. That’s why I disagree with your assertion the Avs would have been better off
If he had full control. He wants a big but skilled team that employs a passive shot-blocking scheme on defense.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Roy clearly got neutered and didn't have a say in all decisions though.

Roy adjusted his scheme to fit the players. I know we have no idea what that looks like with Bednar, so it's a hard concept to grasp, but it's what most coaches do (one reason we were so terrible last year. Bednar tried to force these guys into aggressive types when that wasn't their game. You can't have a guy like Beauch skating all over the place and pinching constantly). Just look at EJs blocks year by year. When we had aggressive forwards like RoR we were not nearly as passive.

 

[McMetal]

Sakic may have signed off on everything, but it's a fact that he listened to Roy and some (we will never know what for certain) moves that he did or did not make were things that Roy was advocating for. I think after the 2016 trade deadline debacle Sakic decided to stop listening to Roy as much. We're pretty sure Roy was unhappy with the Jost pick and the off-season moves that summer, and that's what led to the split. Since then, with Sakic in control, he's at least articulated a vision for the team and taken concrete steps to implement it. We don't know the end result of that plan yet, but it looks good so far and I want to see him have the chance to see it through.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

I have said literally six different things implying that fact. Don't act like I'm treating Roy as someone who had no say.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Pretty sure the few people who are in the know here have mentioned that if it were up to Roy, there would have been some really good moves, as well as some terrible ones.

Pretty much the resume of most GMs.

No way of knowing if we'd be better or worse. Short term vs long term?

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

What terrible moves did Roy want that didn't happen?

People look at rosters all the time and can judge how good a team will be. I don't know why this situation is any different to where there is "no way of knowing". It's not that hard to tell which rosters are improved.

This "no way of knowing" tactic seems to be the go to defense for Sakic. Can't prove it, so there is just no way to know.

 

[Pokecheque]

I think the split really happened at that 2016(?) deadline when the Avs made those bizarre rental deals and torpedoed what little was left of a terrible 2014 draft class. I think that was Roy pushing for those moves and Sakic saying no to more ambitious moves he wanted to make.

As for defensive schemes, some argue Roy made way too many adjustments. I feel like he kept trying to incorporate the M2M system that worked so well for him in junior and that just won't work in the pros.

Roy deserves as much credit as Sakic for getting the drafting/development back on track after years of Pracey and Billington spinning their wheels. Still don't quite know what exactly Billington does but I think Hepple is much more ambitious and obviously not Euro-phobic.

But I agree that we don't know exactly what Roy could do if he had full control, that's why I want to see it...though I'm somewhat relieved the proving grounds won't be in Colorado.

 

[Foppberg]

In hindsight I think Roy was a better coach than given credit for, but I'm glad he's gone. Too much of a wildcard.

 

[EdAVSfan]

What terrible moves did Roy want that didn't happen?

People look at rosters all the time and can judge how good a team will be. I don't know why this situation is any different to where there is "no way of knowing". It's not that hard to tell which rosters are improved.

This "no way of knowing" tactic seems to be the go to defense for Sakic. Can't prove it, so there is just no way to know.

Well I don't specifically know what they are.

I just remember Hench mentioning this in the past. Some of his moves would've been good, some not. Never really specified. And when I asked him to, he said he wouldn't because it wasn't his place to do so.

I'm not defending anyone. I'm on the avs side. Not Sakic's and not Roy's. I don't care who gets traded and who doesn't or who the GM is. I want qualified people that make good decisions, and trades that improve the team.
So please don't lump me into a specific category as if I have some agenda to fulfill.

Of Sakic gets fired, so be it. I won't lose sleep over it. He's made some horrendous mistakes. And I have no doubt that Roy would've made mistakes too. All GMs do.

 

[Pokecheque]

In hindsight I think Roy was a better coach than given credit for, but I'm glad he's gone. Too much of a wildcard.

He was an excellent motivator but a terrible tactician, at least IMHO. Over-adjusted on some things but at times extraordinarily slow to address other concerns.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Well I don't specifically know what they are.

I just remember Hench mentioning this in the past. Some of his moves would've been good, some not. Never really specified. And when I asked him to, he said he wouldn't because it wasn't his place to do so.

I'm not defending anyone. I'm on the avs side. Not Sakic's and not Roy's. I don't care who gets traded and who doesn't or who the GM is. I want qualified people that make good decisions, and trades that improve the team.
So please don't lump me into a specific category as if I have some agenda to fulfill.

Of Sakic gets fired, so be it. I won't lose sleep over it. He's made some horrendous mistakes. And I have no doubt that Roy would've made mistakes too. All GMs do.

Sorry, I'm just tired of hearing "there is no way of knowing" simply because something isn't provable, despite having a damn good idea of what the answer would be.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Sorry, I'm just tired of hearing "there is no way of knowing" simply because something isn't provable, despite having a damn good idea of what the answer would be.

I get it. It's annoying to me too.

But unfortunately, it's a reality. Perhaps Toy would've sold more future. Perhaps he would've acquired more future. All I know, is that the combo of the two of them, was not good. They made some good improvements from the drafting standpoint. But at the pro level, the Roykic combo did not work.

And don't get me wrong. The Sakic era isn't any good either. Sakic needs to go. He clearly doesn't know how to handle certain situations like a GM should. I just hope they hire the proper person next.

But in the end, I would've loved some of the reported moves that Roy wanted. But I also think he had a hand in some moves that I hated. The boedker acquisition. The Talbot, Cliche type moves.

I think Roy had a more win now approach. And sakic has a more "do nothing dangerous, cause I don't know what we need to do" approach.

They both have pros and cons.

It'd be interesting to see what Roy would do as a GM only. I think that could've been an ok move. But the coach with some GM power is just too conflicting for anyone.

 

[Pokecheque]

Roy continues to be a bit of an enigma. I do believe he was behind the push at the deadline to shore up the team's depth, but he was adamantly against rushing the development of players, so I don't believe he would have mortgaged the team's future.

I'm really hoping he gets the call in Montreal. I think he's a bit too enamored with big players still, but I don't think he's willing to sell out skill for "grit" to the extent that Bergevin has.