Joe Sakic & Co - Record with Colorado Avalanche

[LieutenantDangle]

To those that are blaming Roy for the last two seasons of not making the playoffs... are you also giving Roy "all" the credit for the first regular season behind the bench when the Avs won their division and beat out the Blackhawks, Blues, Stars, Wild, and others?

Roy is a contributing factor to the last two season's poor results but he is far from the only reason. Sakic shares some blame for not getting the right players; specially the defense. The core forwards that underperformed also share in some of the blame. So does Varlamov; he too owns some of the blame.

Making the playoffs and winning the Stanley Cup requires a lot of things to go well and lots of people all working together including ownership, the GM, the head coach, the assistant coaches, the core forwards and defense, the role playing forward and defense, the goaltending, etc.

The Avs are missing a lot of key components when it comes to making a Stanley Cup run right now and Roy wasn't the reason they couldn't and didn't.

I think a lot of the blame is assigned to Roy because he was horrible at adapting. He had a system that worked really well for a season, but then the rest of the NHL grew wise to it and schemed for it, exposing holes. Roy failed to respond. That is the head coaches job, to assess and respond. The onus shouldn't all fall on Roy, but there is little doubt in my mind that he failed as a head coach

 

[Pokecheque]

I still feel that one very grave error Roy made as a head coach was in the hiring of his assistants. Instead of bringing in a veteran coach, which would have been wise (much like Crawford bringing in Jacques Martin) he opted for another guy fresh outta juniors and retaining one guy from the previous regime. I think he could have, and should have leaned on a guy who's been there before when things inevitably got rough.

 

[AslanRH]

Can only blame the FO for not getting the right players especially on defense if it can be shown they didn't try. Anything else is almost like blaming the Avs for not signing Ryan Suter or for not drafting Victor Hedman.

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's hard to know what exactly to credit Roy with (and to blame) because we don't know exactly which were his decisions. Those moves involving the Q it's tough because other than Grigo they never brought in anyone he coached. Avs are still a franchise from Quebec, there are ties too. And if there are guys Roy brought in, say Tourigny and Mesonero, if they influenced certain decisions does it mean that Roy gets credit for that too indirectly? I definitely think he turned the tide against Russians and had a hand in some of the Europeans as well but it's tough to know exactly because he's not out there scouting them either. I hope the transparency remains, I am scared a few of those things are going to go away.

Tourigny wa the best assistant Roy had so I dont think it was a mistake bringing in his buddies.

 

[LieutenantDangle]

Can only blame the FO for not getting the right players especially on defense if it can be shown they didn't try. Anything else is almost like blaming the Avs for not signing Ryan Suter or for not drafting Victor Hedman.

you think they could have traded up in that draft? what would it have cost them?

 

[Avs_19]

I think Roy was a really bad coach but it wasn't all bad. He helped bring some good people into the organization (Allaire, Tourigny, scouts, etc), helped with the development of EJ, Barrie, Varly, and Pickard, and played a large role in pushing the organization forward. For the longest time they were stuck in their own little world and he helped change that. He was also very passionate about this organization and spoke directly to the fans in interviews, which was nice after the Lacroix/Sacco era. On the ice I don't think much has changed as we're still rebuilding but there were good changes made off the ice.

It's really tough to say who pushed for specific moves though. It was probably a combination of Sakic and Roy but nobody here knows. Sakic did say Roy had more say in the earlier days and that's when most of their bad moves came so.......

 

[AslanRH]

you think they could have traded up in that draft? what would it have cost them?

Nope, but I don't think they could have forced a UFA to sign or made some miraculous trade for defense either.

I have come to terms with the idea that the Avs have been in on anything they could be to improve the defense for half a decade at least, but between not having the right expendable young pieces/picks for a trade, not having a good enough incentives to lure top UFAs, and not being in a position to really draft a top end defenseman, it just hasn't been meant to be.

 

[McMetal]

I don't think anybody is saying that it's ALL Roy's fault for the last two seasons. But it was a significant factor. The roster really is not as bad as it's been playing. It's just hard to tell because they've been playing in such a flawed system.

As has been said, no one outside the Avs org will ever know what decisions Roy made and which ones Sakic made, but from my perspective, I really like the decisions that were made this draft and offseason, and if Roy didn't, then I'm glad he's not making decisions anymore.

 

[hughdreamz]

At the trade deadline last year Sakic made moves that made this team a without a doubt playoff team. Roy coached them to an extremely underperforming team. Sakic put the pieces on the table and Roy couldn't put the puzzle together.

 

[tigervixxxen]

At the trade deadline last year Sakic made moves that made this team a without a doubt playoff team. Roy coached them to an extremely underperforming team. Sakic put the pieces on the table and Roy couldn't put the puzzle together.

I definitely don't agree with that.

 

[Pokecheque]

I definitely don't agree with that.

Neither do I, especially when you factor in the injuries to both Duchene and MacKinnon down the stretch.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

I think a lot of the blame is assigned to Roy because he was horrible at adapting. He had a system that worked really well for a season, but then the rest of the NHL grew wise to it and schemed for it, exposing holes. Roy failed to respond. That is the head coaches job, to assess and respond. The onus shouldn't all fall on Roy, but there is little doubt in my mind that he failed as a head coach

It might be popular to say that Roy couldn't adapt his schemes on these boards but it isn't all that accurate.

The Avs ran a man on man defensive zone coverage a couple years ago and because the Avs defense was overmatched skill-wise he changed the scheme to a zone/1-2-2 defensive zone coverage. This was an obvious major change in scheme in the middle of the year based on what was happening in the games.

During Roy's 1st year they were a little successful on the power play when Holden camped on the back door and got fed with passes for tap ins. It happened more than once or twice and the league, as you say, made an adjustment. The Avs changed their O-zone setup on the power play to an Iginla one timer instead of Holden tap in. You may not like Iginla for a one timer as a PP scheme but it was an adjustment and Iginla did score a number of one timer PP goals.

Those are only two significant adjustments off the top of my head that were made based on results, or lack thereof. The Avs made some adjustments during the last couple years for sure. You may not like the adjustments, and you may not like the results (who does), but to say no adjustments were made, or Roy doesn't have a scheme, is simply not true.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Can only blame the FO for not getting the right players especially on defense if it can be shown they didn't try. Anything else is almost like blaming the Avs for not signing Ryan Suter or for not drafting Victor Hedman.

The NHL, like all pro sports, is not a try hard league, it is a do good league. If the FO tries hard but can't get the job done then they have failed.

 

[AslanRH]

It might be popular to say that Roy couldn't adapt his schemes on these boards but it isn't all that accurate.

The Avs ran a man on man defensive zone coverage a couple years ago and because the Avs defense was overmatched skill-wise he changed the scheme to a zone/1-2-2 defensive zone coverage. This was an obvious major change in scheme in the middle of the year based on what was happening in the games.

During Roy's 1st year they were a little successful on the power play when Holden camped on the back door and got fed with passes for tap ins. It happened more than once or twice and the league, as you say, made an adjustment. The Avs changed their O-zone setup on the power play to an Iginla one timer instead of Holden tap in. You may not like Iginla for a one timer as a PP scheme but it was an adjustment and Iginla did score a number of one timer PP goals.

Those are only two significant adjustments off the top of my head that were made based on results, or lack thereof. The Avs made some adjustments during the last couple years for sure. You may not like the adjustments, and you may not like the results (who does), but to say no adjustments were made, or Roy doesn't have a scheme, is simply not true.

Grand scheme changes are one thing, and most everyone is aware of those. I think more people take issue with his ability to adjust in game, between games, etc. Symptoms like consistently losing leads in the late 2nd or early 3rd. or being successful offensively and in transition early in games, but then getting locked down once the other team makes their adjustments.

The NHL, like all pro sports, is not a try hard league, it is a do good league. If the FO tries hard but can't get the job done then they have failed.

So what specific things do you propose Sakic should/could have realistically done but didn't and therefore failed at?

 

[dahrougem2]

I definitely don't agree with that.

Neither do I, especially when you factor in the injuries to both Duchene and MacKinnon down the stretch.

Injuries down the stretch don't factor in to the roster that was after the deadline. I can't remember the exact lines, but having a forward corps of:

Landeskog-Soderberg-Matthias
Grigorenko-MacKinnon-Boedker
Comeau-Duchene-Iginla
McLeod-Mitchell-Skille

On paper, at least, should have been able to lock down a wild-card spot. The defence as we knew it still wasn't upgraded and as we all know that was/has been the biggest problem on this team. But the Wild gave us every opportunity to claim that final wildcard spot and we just could not do it for whatever reason.

The last few weeks where Duchene and MacKinnon were out definitely didn't help things, but it wasn't always that way.

We went 8-12-0 over our last 20 games, scoring 51 goals and allowing 66. It wasn't pretty down the stretch but I do believe the roster we had on paper at the trade deadline was better than the roster we had to start the season, and the roster we had to start the season was one I thought could compete for a wildcard spot.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Grand scheme changes are one thing, and most everyone is aware of those. I think more people take issue with his ability to adjust in game, between games, etc. Symptoms like consistently losing leads in the late 2nd or early 3rd. or being successful offensively and in transition early in games, but then getting locked down once the other team makes their adjustments.

You can point your finger at Roy all you want but losing leads in the 3rd aren't "always the coach's fault". The players have to execute and lack of execution is more important than what a coach says behind the bench or between periods. Roy wasn't the guy turning the puck over in the neutral zone or in the defensive zone and giving the opponent the go ahead goal in the 3rd period and I'm 100% certain Roy didn't instruct his players to do so.

So what specific things do you propose Sakic should/could have realistically done but didn't and therefore failed at?

If the roster isn't good enough talent wise and needs changing then it's the front office's job to get the changes made. Do you think the roster is good enough right now to win a Stanley Cup? I sure as hell don't.

Everyone wants to point fingers at Roy for not getting it done as a coach. I say Sakic and the rest of the front office is just as responsible for not getting it done. I also say the players are just as responsible, if not a lot more responsible, for not getting it done. It's been an organizational failure top to bottom for two years; not just a coaching failure.

 

[tucker3434]

You can point your finger at Roy all you want but losing leads in the 3rd aren't "always the coach's fault". The players have to execute and lack of execution is more important than what a coach says behind the bench or between periods.


If the roster isn't good enough talent wise and needs changing then it's the front office's job to get the changes made. Do you think the roster is good enough right now to win a Stanley Cup? I sure as hell don't.

Everyone wants to point fingers at Roy for not getting it done as a coach. I say Sakic and the rest of the front office is just as responsible for not getting it done. I also say the players are just as responsible, if not a lot more responsible, for not getting it done. It's been an organizational failure top to bottom for two years; not just a coaching failure.

I don't agree. its the front office's job to put together rosters that can compete over the long term. It's the coaches' job to win with what they've currently got.

I'm sure Sakic could have traded MacKinnon for a kings ransom of vets, and the Avs could have been in the playoffs. But for what? We'd be much worse off moving forward. I like the roster we have. I think the next coach has plenty of weapons at his disposal to turn this team around. For that, I can't call Sakic a failure.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Of course it's everyone's fault. There's also this part about they need to build to be a contender, you can't just go out and buy it or trade for it. No, this roster isn't a contender or a guaranteed playoff team, nor is it a bottom 5 roster, and the same was true last year and at the deadline. It is what it has been ever since 2013, an incomplete mediocre team with some good pieces, some flaws but good and competitive enough to go out and win any given night but inconsistent enough to feel like it's underachieving at certain times. It's damn tough to get over the hump and take the next step, it is going to take more than a trade or a player stepping up or improved coaching. It's going to take the continued build in all areas and that can't be rushed.

The third period collapses are on everyone. From the players playing scared to the player usage and bench shortening. Wearing guys out contributes to that too. Roy basically running 2 D pairings down the stretch contributed to it biting them in the butt. It's also his job to turn the collective losing mentality around, that's what a coach is there for. It's players not executing, it's them playing scared, it's them not having a strong system to fall back on, it's everything.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

I don't agree. its the front office's job to put together rosters that can compete over the long term. It's the coaches' job to win with what they've currently got.

Ask yourself one question... do you feel the current roster is good enough to win the Stanley Cup?

If the answer to that is no then who is responsible for fixing that?

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Of course it's everyone's fault. There's also this part about they need to build to be a contender, you can't just go out and buy it or trade for it. No, this roster isn't a contender or a guaranteed playoff team, nor is it a bottom 5 roster, and the same was true last year and at the deadline. It is what it has been ever since 2013, an incomplete mediocre team with some good pieces, some flaws but good and competitive enough to go out and win any given night but inconsistent enough to feel like it's underachieving at certain times. It's damn tough to get over the hump and take the next step, it is going to take more than a trade or a player stepping up or improved coaching. It's going to take the continued build in all areas and that can't be rushed.

The third period collapses are on everyone. From the players playing scared to the player usage and bench shortening. Wearing guys out contributes to that too. Roy basically running 2 D pairings down the stretch contributed to it biting them in the butt. It's also his job to turn the collective losing mentality around, that's what a coach is there for. It's players not executing, it's them playing scared, it's them not having a strong system to fall back on, it's everything.

The bold is what I've been saying; it's not just the coach. It's the entire organization that has failed for a number of years except for a hiccup when Anderson carried the team to the playoffs and Roy's first "feel good" year behind the bench. From top to bottom the Avs have been mired in mediocrity and quite frankly I don't see that changing much.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Ask yourself one question... do you feel the current roster is good enough to win the Stanley Cup?

If the answer to that is no then who is responsible for fixing that?

How many really are?

They won't get there without proper drafting and a strong development system, that's why I harp on it every day around here. I truly believe that's the only way in today's cap world. When a team is close then they can look to a trade or a FA to get them over the top but without a foundation they will never get anywhere. That's the part Sakic is responsible for.

 

[tucker3434]

Ask yourself one question... do you feel the current roster is good enough to win the Stanley Cup?

If the answer to that is no then who is responsible for fixing that?

This season? God no. In the future? Eh, maybe.

But I don't think you just GM your way into cup contention. Look at every cup recent winner. How brilliant do their GM's look without Crosby, Malkin, Toews, or Kane? Cups aren't traded for or signed in UFA. They're drafted. Right now, they're doing what they can with that.

 

[ABasin]

The NHL, like all pro sports, is not a try hard league, it is a do good league. If the FO tries hard but can't get the job done then they have failed.

This is utterly completely entirely correct.

HTH, you're likely going to get a ton of s**t for posting that, but you're on the money here.

 

[tigervixxxen]

This is utterly completely entirely correct.

HTH, you're likely going to get a ton of s**t for posting that, but you're on the money here.

Well yeah it's obvious, everyone is judged by results and they haven't been good enough. Don't think anyone disagrees with that. It's the what are you going to do about it part.

 

[shadow1]

We went 8-12-0 over our last 20 games, scoring 51 goals and allowing 66. It wasn't pretty down the stretch but I do believe the roster we had on paper at the trade deadline was better than the roster we had to start the season, and the roster we had to start the season was one I thought could compete for a wildcard spot.

I'd like to magnify it even more. The Avs were in a playoff spot on March 20th with a record of 38-31-4.

The club then went 1-8-0, giving up 36 goals. Whether we realize it or not, the sour taste in everyone's mouthes is mostly from this stretch. If the club had made the playoffs, even if they were creamed, would the level of pessimism be as bad?

I think this off-season has been a success. Young guys were locked up long term, and the one thing no one ever thought would happen - Patrick Roy leaving - did.

Right now, Colorado is in damn good shape on paper, and whomever the next coach is will not be as bad a Roy was last year.

I know being optimistic isn't popular, but with the young guys being locked up, I am looking forward to next off-season when the Avalanche go on a shopping spree.