Speculation: Jets General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation 15-16 (Part IV)

[voyageur]

I think it's time to start building for tomorrow if we can't make it with the current leadership group.

Buff, Peluso, Kichton for Schenn, Morin, 3rd or 4th. If the Flyers need to make space they can dump the other Schenn elsewhere with retention. Then trade Pavs for
Mason Raymond (filler but PK capable able to play on a 3rd line) and Ortio.

Schenn steps in to that 2nd line with Scheif-Ehlers. Ladd goes back to the top line and Perrault goes down with Lowry-Stafford to round out 3 lines. Burmi/Raymond-Copp-Thorburn/Raymond for the 4th. Petan gets development.

Defense changes:

Enstrom-Trouba
Morrissey-Myers
Stuart/Pardy-Chiarot/Postma (sheltered, I am willing to give Postman another shot with Stu, struggled in one game this year, looked good in one game last year), Chiarot-Pardy are the other option in competition.

Morin we can develop into a solid 3rd pairing d-man, but not until Stuart is moved (maybe for Anthony Camara)


Helleybuck
Hutch


We try to change this team around with some youthful leadership. Maybe Ladd is moved at the deadline. We deal with growing pains. Next year we hire Hawerchuk as an assistant, to help Maurice. And improve.

We can hope that we add as many as 4 forwards as graduates (Lemieux, Petan, Lipon and Armia to next year's roster, with current players who don't bring heart shipped out.

 

[Bob E]

If I'm Buff and Ladd, now that the season is well underway, unless the Jets come very close to my salary demands... I'm not signing. Why would I?

Especially if their representatives are telling them they will get close to their salary demands in FA. And they can choose their destination. Unless the Jets overpay, I can see both walking and testing FA. And they've earned that right.

 

[Whileee]

If I'm Buff and Ladd, now that the season is well underway, unless the Jets come very close to my salary demands... I'm not signing. Why would I?

Especially if their representatives are telling them they will get close to their salary demands in FA. And they can choose their destination. Unless the Jets overpay, I can see both walking and testing FA. And they've earned that right.

If their contract demands had been relatively close to the ballpark that the Jets were willing to offer they would both be signed by now. The Jets clearly don't think it would be responsible management to pay them what they are demanding, so there's a standoff. If the standoff doesn't end soon with Ladd and/or Buff agreeing to lower their demands, then I think the Jets part ways with either or both of them before the trade deadline.

 

[CaptainChef]

Jets are still top-10 in possession stats. Their PDO is 9th last. They again have a big imbalance on special teams.

The recent spate of games is a bit of an anomaly. There is no way that they are as bad as the recent scores indicate, but they do need to clean up their D and get a few key saves (especially early in games).

If the Jets' D and goaltending was playing anything like last year, we wouldn't be moaning about not re-signing a depth forward or two instead of playing rookies.

(Not directed at you particularly), but I'll repeat again that playing Peluso and Thorbs as they are is a stylistic choice by Maurice. He has had other roster options. Playing Peluso tonight over Petan is a good example. Chevy gave him Petan and he wants to play Peluso and Thorbs over him. It'll be interesting to see if Maurice ignores Raffl when he's available.

That's the biggest problem I have with Maurice as well. Finally, after 5 horrendous games, he feels it is necessary to change the line-up & he moves a player that has been ineffective with good line-mates (Perrault) up rather than trying something around Petan (who has definitely earned a look in the top 6).

Same with his defensive moves. Heaven forbid he might ever try to sit Stu out -- after all, what would Trouba do out there without his anchor. Slots Pardy in for whoever -- much like Postma I'm sure that he'll be on such an incredibly short leash that its one & out for him too.

If he treated all with the same standard (or even close to the same standard) I'd be all for it. But Stu & the rest of his favored vets can make a million mistakes that cost us games and they never even miss a shift.

 

[Whileee]

That's the biggest problem I have with Maurice as well. Finally, after 5 horrendous games, he feels it is necessary to change the line-up & he moves a player that has been ineffective with good line-mates (Perrault) up rather than trying something around Petan (who has definitely earned a look in the top 6).

Same with his defensive moves. Heaven forbid he might ever try to sit Stu out -- after all, what would Trouba do out there without his anchor. Slots Pardy in for whoever -- much like Postma I'm sure that he'll be on such an incredibly short leash that its one & out for him too.

If he treated all with the same standard (or even close to the same standard) I'd be all for it. But Stu & the rest of his favored vets can make a million mistakes that cost us games and they never even miss a shift.

Yup.

I like a lot about what Maurice has done, but he has a real affinity for his "old school" players like Stu, Thorbs and Peluso. I hope he adapts and is able to coach a team that is quicker and more talented. I think he can.

 

[bustamente]

Yup.

I like a lot about what Maurice has done, but he has a real affinity for his "old school" players like Stu, Thorbs and Peluso. I hope he adapts and is able to coach a team that is quicker and more talented. I think he can.

This is nothing new for Maurice it's his coaching style, he feels comfortable with vets and some say it stunts the growth of rookie's. He has to adapt because of all the potential rookie's in the pipeline.

 

[robertocarlos]

If I'm Buff and Ladd, now that the season is well underway, unless the Jets come very close to my salary demands... I'm not signing. Why would I?

Especially if their representatives are telling them they will get close to their salary demands in FA. And they can choose their destination. Unless the Jets overpay, I can see both walking and testing FA. And they've earned that right.

They have earned that right. You can argue that they have been underpaid the last 4 years. It's going to be a **** storm before we finally figure out we can't afford an NHL team.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Jets are still top-10 in possession stats. Their PDO is 9th last. They again have a big imbalance on special teams.

The recent spate of games is a bit of an anomaly. There is no way that they are as bad as the recent scores indicate, but they do need to clean up their D and get a few key saves (especially early in games).

If the Jets' D and goaltending was playing anything like last year, we wouldn't be moaning about not re-signing a depth forward or two instead of playing rookies.

(Not directed at you particularly), but I'll repeat again that playing Peluso and Thorbs as they are is a stylistic choice by Maurice. He has had other roster options. Playing Peluso tonight over Petan is a good example. Chevy gave him Petan and he wants to play Peluso and Thorbs over him. It'll be interesting to see if Maurice ignores Raffl when he's available.

Not doubting you but that is hard to believe. They have been consistently outshot all year and when I have seen the stats they were usually outchanced or out attempted too. The eye test also said they were being outplayed in most of the first 11 games as well as 6 of the last 7. In all games though there have been stretches of good play that could have pushed the possession numbers in their favour. They would win 2 of 3 periods but lose one badly. Sometimes that has cost them a game sometimes not. The odd man rushes and breakaways have been worse more recently and the goaltending has not been bailing us out.

I agree that they are not as bad as recent scores indicate on paper but they actually have been making those mistakes so they really have been that bad in these recent games. There are a couple of things that have stuck out to me. The passing has been bad all season. The number of times passes are into the receiver's skates is way too high. Another is something that we saw too much of last game. We will control the puck in the O zone for an extended time. Sometimes with few or no shots, sometimes with shots but no dangerous ones, occasionally with a dangerous shot, rarely with much net front presence. That period of O zone control will end with a breakaway far too often, or an odd man rush and a goal against. That has to be deflating. Says to me we are not reacting well to the other team's transition. Maybe we are over-committed.

I sort of half agree with what you say about style. In putting Peluso in he is opting for more hitting, more physicality. Call that a style choice if you want. I think it is more accurate to say that he is trying to adjust to different opponents. A matter of opinion if it is wise or not. The choice with Thor is that he thinks Thor's style is a better fit for the styles of Lowry and Stafford than Burmi's style is. I wouldn't say it was a preference for Thor's style though (although he has indicated an appreciation for Thor's 'simple' game before). Just a matter of fit.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

If their contract demands had been relatively close to the ballpark that the Jets were willing to offer they would both be signed by now. The Jets clearly don't think it would be responsible management to pay them what they are demanding, so there's a standoff. If the standoff doesn't end soon with Ladd and/or Buff agreeing to lower their demands, then I think the Jets part ways with either or both of them before the trade deadline.

Yup. But it begs the question, if the contract demands/offers were that far apart why weren't they traded long ago? Playing chicken hoping they would cave? Extremely foolish. Waiting to see how this year's edition of the Jets performed? OK, seen enough, start shopping. Waiting for another team to become desperate because of bad play or injury? Risky. Guess who has the bad play.

To top it off Ladd's value will be plummeting with his poor play. We will have to find someone hoping he would rebound this season in which case they extend him. If not they would let him walk. That riskiness means they will not pay too much for him. He would have brought a lot in the off-season. Now, not so much. Or maybe his 12 pts in 18 games would be enough to still get a good return. If Chevy moves quickly.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

What are the odds that 90% of all this trade talk, firing talk, tank talk, assorted whinging etc. ends if the Jets win tonight? OK, make it 80%, we always have at least 10% *itching.

 

[Whileee]

They have earned that right. You can argue that they have been underpaid the last 4 years. It's going to be a **** storm before we finally figure out we can't afford an NHL team.

Complete nonsense that the Ladd and Buff contracts have anything to do about being able to "afford and NHL team". That has absolutely nothing to do with the negotiations with Ladd and Buff. It's all about managing the cap going forward.

 

[Whileee]

Yup. But it begs the question, if the contract demands/offers were that far apart why weren't they traded long ago? Playing chicken hoping they would cave? Extremely foolish. Waiting to see how this year's edition of the Jets performed? OK, seen enough, start shopping. Waiting for another team to become desperate because of bad play or injury? Risky. Guess who has the bad play.

To top it off Ladd's value will be plummeting with his poor play. We will have to find someone hoping he would rebound this season in which case they extend him. If not they would let him walk. That riskiness means they will not pay too much for him. He would have brought a lot in the off-season. Now, not so much. Or maybe his 12 pts in 18 games would be enough to still get a good return. If Chevy moves quickly.

I think the Jets wanted to keep Ladd and planned to do so. They might still. However, they might have been taken aback by his salary demands, considering his serious injury. His play in training camp and so far this season has problem made them even less inclined to meet his demands.

I think that they might have known that they would likely have to deal Buff. But let's not forget that up until less than a year ago Buff was a bit of a wild card, as was his value. At this time last year he was a relatively ineffective middle-line forward. In the years prior to that, he had some real problems with conditioning and consistency. His stock really rose from about December last year, and remains high. The notion that Buff had much higher trade value a couple of years ago doesn't match with where his game and conditioning was. He's become a much more attractive commodity over the past 10-11 months.

 

[Whileee]

Not doubting you but that is hard to believe. They have been consistently outshot all year and when I have seen the stats they were usually outchanced or out attempted too. The eye test also said they were being outplayed in most of the first 11 games as well as 6 of the last 7. In all games though there have been stretches of good play that could have pushed the possession numbers in their favour. They would win 2 of 3 periods but lose one badly. Sometimes that has cost them a game sometimes not. The odd man rushes and breakaways have been worse more recently and the goaltending has not been bailing us out.

I agree that they are not as bad as recent scores indicate on paper but they actually have been making those mistakes so they really have been that bad in these recent games. There are a couple of things that have stuck out to me. The passing has been bad all season. The number of times passes are into the receiver's skates is way too high. Another is something that we saw too much of last game. We will control the puck in the O zone for an extended time. Sometimes with few or no shots, sometimes with shots but no dangerous ones, occasionally with a dangerous shot, rarely with much net front presence. That period of O zone control will end with a breakaway far too often, or an odd man rush and a goal against. That has to be deflating. Says to me we are not reacting well to the other team's transition. Maybe we are over-committed.

I sort of half agree with what you say about style. In putting Peluso in he is opting for more hitting, more physicality. Call that a style choice if you want. I think it is more accurate to say that he is trying to adjust to different opponents. A matter of opinion if it is wise or not. The choice with Thor is that he thinks Thor's style is a better fit for the styles of Lowry and Stafford than Burmi's style is. I wouldn't say it was a preference for Thor's style though (although he has indicated an appreciation for Thor's 'simple' game before). Just a matter of fit.

Don't take my word for it.... (War on Ice gives the same picture).

View attachment 85983

 

[Hunter368]

Complete nonsense that the Ladd and Buff contracts have anything to do about being able to "afford and NHL team". That has absolutely nothing to do with the negotiations with Ladd and Buff. It's all about managing the cap going forward.

I completely agree with you, but I think for some there will be that tiny bit of doubt until this ownership team shows a willingness to ice the best team possible and try everything possible to keep it. So far they've hedged their stance and not gone all out.....playing it very reserved. Money could of been spent over the last 5 seasons to improve this team but wasn't (even without it being at the expense of our young future). I know Chipmans words as well as anyone here, but proof is in the pudding....words are empty. I've been around the block enough times to know what is said isn't always what is done.

I'm waiting to see this ownership group to walk the walk......so far they've done nothing but say the words. As a fan and STH I get annoyed when I pay full value for my tickets (amongst the most expensive NHL wide) and get a poor product intentionally.

 

[KingBogo]

I completely agree with you, but I think for some there will be that tiny bit of doubt until this ownership team shows a willingness to ice the best team possible and try everything possible to keep it. So far they've hedged their stance and not gone all out.....playing it very reserved. Money could of been spent over the last 5 seasons to improve this team but wasn't (even without it being at the expense of our young future). I know Chipmans words as well as anyone here, but proof is in the pudding....words are empty. I've been around the block enough times to know what is said isn't always what is done.

I'm waiting to see this ownership group to walk the walk......so far they've done nothing but say the words. As a fan and STH I get annoyed when I pay full value for my tickets (amongst the most expensive NHL wide) and get a poor product intentionally.

That is a good way to put it. So far the organization has done the D&D thing and built up a nice prospect pool and have some nice young players in the NHL starting to play important roles. They have been able to keep most of their older core together because they were already signed long term or were RFA's limiting their movement and salary demands. But now that group has started to hit the expensive UFA years. So Chevy either has to believe in them and open that window now, or make the tough decision to double down on the youth. He can't dither in between any longer or time will pass him by.

 

[garret9]

Don't take my word for it.... (War on Ice gives the same picture).

View attachment 85983

I wouldn't use NHL numbers. SAP has ****ed up hahah

http://yosttravis.tumblr.com/post/133148427661/sap-nhl-and-the-long-con

 

[Whileee]

I completely agree with you, but I think for some there will be that tiny bit of doubt until this ownership team shows a willingness to ice the best team possible and try everything possible to keep it. So far they've hedged their stance and not gone all out.....playing it very reserved. Money could of been spent over the last 5 seasons to improve this team but wasn't (even without it being at the expense of our young future). I know Chipmans words as well as anyone here, but proof is in the pudding....words are empty. I've been around the block enough times to know what is said isn't always what is done.

I'm waiting to see this ownership group to walk the walk......so far they've done nothing but say the words. As a fan and STH I get annoyed when I pay full value for my tickets (amongst the most expensive NHL wide) and get a poor product intentionally.

You realize that the Jets were very near to the salary cap ceiling last year, right?

I think this year is an anomaly because they have a bunch of contracts coming up after the season, so they need to preserve cap space. I suppose they could have tried to sign some vets to 1-year contracts, but which impact player signs for 1 year?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think the Jets wanted to keep Ladd and planned to do so. They might still. However, they might have been taken aback by his salary demands, considering his serious injury. His play in training camp and so far this season has problem made them even less inclined to meet his demands.

I think that they might have known that they would likely have to deal Buff. But let's not forget that up until less than a year ago Buff was a bit of a wild card, as was his value. At this time last year he was a relatively ineffective middle-line forward. In the years prior to that, he had some real problems with conditioning and consistency. His stock really rose from about December last year, and remains high. The notion that Buff had much higher trade value a couple of years ago doesn't match with where his game and conditioning was. He's become a much more attractive commodity over the past 10-11 months.

I'm not talking 2 years ago. That is an entirely different scenario of trading the present for futures and building the prospect pool more aggressively. I am talking about anytime between the end of last season and the start of TC. I'm pretty sure there was at least one good offer made at the draft. I won't repeat it here because it is just too speculative. Roughly from draft time to early July is the period when his value was highest. The way the Jets are going right now the TD is coming into view as a possibility I never expected but I don't expect this crapola to last much longer. If it does though Buff might bring a pretty good return then. I would rather not wait that long.

 

[Whileee]

I wouldn't use NHL numbers. SAP has ****ed up hahah

http://yosttravis.tumblr.com/post/133148427661/sap-nhl-and-the-long-con

Same picture here... (WOI). Jets 9th in 5v5 CF% (score-adjusted).

View attachment 85985

 

[JetsFan815]

I'm not talking 2 years ago. That is an entirely different scenario of trading the present for futures and building the prospect pool more aggressively. I am talking about anytime between the end of last season and the start of TC. I'm pretty sure there was at least one good offer made at the draft. I won't repeat it here because it is just too speculative. Roughly from draft time to early July is the period when his value was highest. The way the Jets are going right now the TD is coming into view as a possibility I never expected but I don't expect this crapola to last much longer. If it does though Buff might bring a pretty good return then. I would rather not wait that long.

Oh come on, spit it out. You can't leave us hanging like this

 

[Whileee]

I'm not talking 2 years ago. That is an entirely different scenario of trading the present for futures and building the prospect pool more aggressively. I am talking about anytime between the end of last season and the start of TC. I'm pretty sure there was at least one good offer made at the draft. I won't repeat it here because it is just too speculative. Roughly from draft time to early July is the period when his value was highest. The way the Jets are going right now the TD is coming into view as a possibility I never expected but I don't expect this crapola to last much longer. If it does though Buff might bring a pretty good return then. I would rather not wait that long.

I think that there's a trade-off related to Buff's value. His value might increase because some teams will be able to fit him under the cap a bit later this season, but wouldn't have been able to fit him at the beginning of the season. I think that his greatest value is either to a team that is a lower tier team that thinks that he can turn the team around in the long term (i.e. they would want to re-sign him), or to a contender that thinks he'll put them over the top. Either way, I don't see his value being all that sensitive to whether it is in the off-season or during the season.

I am always reluctant to see a trade of a player for picks at the draft, because I think draft picks are over-valued around the draft. Their value is at the lowest around the trade deadline when potential contenders are in a "win now" mode and they aren't as afraid of losing a lottery pick.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Don't take my word for it.... (War on Ice gives the same picture).

View attachment 85983

Like I said they have had enough stretches of good play mixed in with the bad that it could have pushed those stats in that direction. There were a lot of games earlier in the season that they won but had at least 1 really bad period that left a less than satisfactory aftertaste. That left me feeling they hadn't really played that well but had beaten a team that played even worse. Did you really feel they were playing well in those first 11 games? In how many of them did our goalies bail us out? The only one I can recall where I really liked our game was the win in MSG. It seems to me there was another in there someplace but I can't remember which one now.

 

[Whileee]

Like I said they have had enough stretches of good play mixed in with the bad that it could have pushed those stats in that direction. There were a lot of games earlier in the season that they won but had at least 1 really bad period that left a less than satisfactory aftertaste. That left me feeling they hadn't really played that well but had beaten a team that played even worse. Did you really feel they were playing well in those first 11 games? In how many of them did our goalies bail us out? The only one I can recall where I really liked our game was the win in MSG. It seems to me there was another in there someplace but I can't remember which one now.

I haven't liked their game that much, but it's hard to get a good read because they have had some really bad defensive breakdowns that seem to come in bunches. Once they get down 2 or 3, it's hard to assess their play.

I think it's still a bit early.

I hate their PK. It looks like Noel's.

 

[Hunter368]

You realize that the Jets were very near to the salary cap ceiling last year, right?

I think this year is an anomaly because they have a bunch of contracts coming up after the season, so they need to preserve cap space. I suppose they could have tried to sign some vets to 1-year contracts, but which impact player signs for 1 year?

Fully aware of the salary last year, my point is still valid. I fully get this year. This year and all others (except last) money could be spent to TRY and ice the best team possible but wasn't by choice. Those years I fell like paying deferred rate for my season tickets.

Some US teams plan poorly no doubt (wouldn't want that), but I admire (some) they try to give their fans the best product each year. Not advocating selling our futures or products.

 

[Hunter368]

I haven't liked their game that much, but it's hard to get a good read because they have had some really bad defensive breakdowns that seem to come in bunches. Once they get down 2 or 3, it's hard to assess their play.

I think it's still a bit early.

I hate their PK. It looks like Noel's.

I agree, I said many times I haven't liked their play since the season started. Now it's really showing.