Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part 15

[Miller Time]

I read this morning that of all 850+ players in the NHL this year, less than 20 are younger than JK. If you only count those who have played 20 games or more, then that number is only 8.

I think fans forget this because he has already played 150+ NHL games but he's still super duper young.

indeed... some posters have a hard time seeing past a narrow "what you see is what you get" lens when looking at young players... failing to consider context, physical maturation and progression factors.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Who does? McGuire or KK?

McGuire prefers to watch lol

 

[Sasha Orlov]

delete

 

[Mrb1p]

Here we have it the debate is closed ty Dale

 

[Aces on the road]

Hi fellow Finn, my parents were born in Finland.
I think KK is tough, he doesnt shy away from the contact. Kid is 20 and is finding his way. When he gets man strength he will be much better.

I count you as a Finn.
When he becomes stronger, it certainly help. Still I do not see he is involving enough if I compare to Suzuki. Vision is world class and passing. Still long way to go and Habs need Danault and these two young center cannot take his role yet.

 

[Walrus26]

KK oozed skill last night, if Ducharme has given us one tangible benefit, it's KK's increased confidence and generally more expanded role.

 

[Dondini]

At some point his production has to increase. On pace for 10 goals 38 points. Lacks acceleration

 

[angusyoung]

At some point his production has to increase. On pace for 10 goals 38 points. Lacks acceleration

Very underwhelming.

 

[salbutera]

At some point his production has to increase. On pace for 10 goals 38 points. Lacks acceleration

This.

KK is showing no signs of points progression in his 3rd pro season - he’s on pace to meet his rookie point totals with far more TOI and significantly expanded PP time.

Also disappointed he doesn’t use his shot more often, opposing teams I suspect see his pass first mentality and are overplaying the pass

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

It’s obviously still early, but there are just so few wow moments with KK. Solid player, but really, what does he bring in an elite way other than a long stick and a shot he can’t get off consistently? He’s tall, but he’s still on his ass a half dozen or so times a game, his skating is better but still nothing special, and the overall skill and offensive IQ is barely evident.

Still young obviously, but for those comparing him to Sheifele and Monohan, I was more impressed with the talent of those two at the same age.

in a couple of years I imagine our top 3 centers will be Suzuki, KK, and Poehling. Will be interesting to see how those 3 compare to each other.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

At some point his production has to increase. On pace for 10 goals 38 points. Lacks acceleration

What are the next excuses going to be? Getting PP time... offensive wingers and usage... Is pretty filled out and in his third year... what’s the excuse now?

 

[Dondini]

What are the next excuses going to be? Getting PP time... offensive wingers and usage... Is pretty filled out and in his third year... what’s the excuse now?

Hes unable to move the puck fast with his stick handling. Stick handling isn’t all about stick handling fast like patty kane, but he lacks the hand speed to make moves around guys. stick handling very reminiscent of Jordan Staal. My brother loves KK but I’ve never been sold on him as an elite prospect. He needs to increase his acceleration as well. But my prediction is he becomes an elite 2 way physical 3C on a contending team. Which is fine. Just sucks he’s a third OA. Hope I’m wrong but I have a tough time to see major offensive production. I know he’s young, but it’s his style of play and genetic skill that worry me

 

[Saxon]

He's already twenty and isn't dominating yet, just buy him out and move on.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

He's already twenty and isn't dominating yet, just buy him out and move on.

This is the definition of a Straw Man. No one is saying that. We are simply discussing a players upside as we are allowed to do.

Can’t wait until all these Straw Man folks start blaming the org for KKs development. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Sens]

He’s at Suzuki pace last season...

 

[Doc5]

Not to be a pessimist or anything but the 3rd OA from 2020 is out scoring our 3rd OA from 2018. Do we get lottery picks in the wrong year or what

 

[Clippy]

Not to be a pessimist or anything but the 3rd OA from 2020 is out scoring our 3rd OA from 2018. Do we get lottery picks in the wrong year or what

You really are pessimist; you forgot that we have the 3rd OA from 2013. Count your blessings.

 

[Doc5]

You really are pessimist; you forgot that we have the 3rd OA from 2013. Count your blessings.

How could I forget! He’s currently 10th in scoring from that draft, he’s so generous, he seems to let a new person pass him each year. There’s even 2 defensemen ahead of him!

 

[yianik]

Yeah, its true KK is on pace for about the same production as his first year, despite playing 1:09 a game more. At the same time he was -7 in +/_year one and -18 in takeaways minus giveaways, while he is +1 this year and +11 respectively, with double the hits and about 4% better in the dot, at almost 50%.

 

[montreal]

I don't know how anyone can look at KK and not see improvement especially so after last seasons disaster. I think a lot of posters can't see the forest through the trees, we'll see where his game is at next year, the following. I'd be very surprised if he's not putting up over 50 pts in 2 years, hopefully more but we'll see who gets Caufield.

I also don't know how anyone could look at the way he's been developed and think yea that's a way to do it. I know some hate the development excuse, but under MB it's the worst i've ever seen. This year seems like a step in the right direction at least.

That said -

No One should say it's all on development,

No One should say that you can turn McCarron into Cam Neely or Beaulieu in Markov, etc..

Development has it's limits of course but those that just dismiss development, good coaching impact, confidence and how the yo-yo approach that we have seen so many times under MB is just a terrible way to handle prospects.

Players can overcome bad development while others will struggle to find their confidence no matter what happens to them, trades, sent down, etc..

If development is bad it doesn't mean Timmins is off the hook, development should be able helping prospects but scouting has it's own faults as well. Taking a kid with skating issues at 3rd OA is very risky, etc...

 

[Whitesnake]

This is the definition of a Straw Man. No one is saying that. We are simply discussing a players upside as we are allowed to do.

Can’t wait until all these Straw Man folks start blaming the org for KKs development. Rinse and repeat.

I'm no development first advocate....but CLEARLY in this case, while I will always believe that KK's development will end up being what he always had the potential to be, the stupid development of KK is responsible for the insane expectations we have on him. You CANNOT as an organization who was NEVER able to draft 1 good centerman in 18 years, to draft a guy you see as FINALLY your future great C for 15 years to come, and bring him IMMEDIATELY in the NHL while he has mostly played on the wings before that. You can't. That's Réjean Houle era at its worst.

The kid was drafted No3 'cause of the needs. But should have been handled as a project. They missed the mark. Again.

 

[morhilane]

Yeah, its true KK is on pace for about the same production as his first year, despite playing 1:09 a game more. At the same time he was -7 in +/_year one and -18 in takeaways minus giveaways, while he is +1 this year and +11 respectively, with double the hits and about 4% better in the dot, at almost 50%.

The players he played with this year vs his 1st year have regressed in points too (including in P/60) and with his linemates carrousels other centers have played more than him with each ones except Armia.

Then you add that in the last two games, his line with Drouin/Anderson has being used defensively (more dzone starts than ozone ones) against the top lines with Drouin playing like crap...

By the way, KK isn't playing more PP than his first years, his PP TOI/GP average is actually 2 seconds less this year so far.

 

[azcanuck]

Like Bouchard says "development is a gravel road". There will always be hiccups and it's not a linear proposition.

The Canadiens could have done things differently like leave him in europe his first year for sure. But they did not "ruin him".

In the end when the excuse for his age is not being able to be used we will see a player who is solid two way center, but not an elite NHL player.

 

[Draft]

Not to be a pessimist or anything but the 3rd OA from 2020 is out scoring our 3rd OA from 2018. Do we get lottery picks in the wrong year or what

The easy answer is yes. Galchenyuk's draft year is one of the worst top-10s ever.

We chose need in 2018 and the draft had absolutely no high-end centres.

I don't think KK was the wrong choice and he's still got upside, but it sure as shit could have lined up better for us. Looking at other centres taken between 3-5 in other years, I'd happily take Dach, Stützle, Petterson, or Dubois over Kotkaniemi on draft day.

Just going to have to wait and see. Give him as many good opportunities as we can and do our best to develop his game. He's been a long-term project since the start.

 

[Whitesnake]

Like Bouchard says "development is a gravel road". There will always be hiccups and it's not a linear proposition.

The Canadiens could have done things differently like leave him in europe his first year for sure. But they did not "ruin him".

In the end when the excuse for his age is not being able to be used we will see a player who is solid two way center, but not an elite NHL player.

Exactly. Being ruined isn't worth talking about it 'cause if it exists, it's not enough to be talked about. For the Habs, maybe we can say Leblanc was ruined. Yet again, there are posters like @WeThreeKings who never thought he'd be anything special. It's not like we were talking about a 1st overall pick here. I mean even a guy like Yakupov, not a lot of people talk about how the Oilers f***ed him up and yet...he was pretty much a consensus 1st overall...but in Montreal....we were able to RUINED everybody thanks to Lefebvre and Therrien? Yeah sure...cop out from Timmins pure fanatics.

Yet...as far as KK's is concerned, it was not handled properly. You have to use development to get the BEST the SOONER. We didn't do that for him. We will get it. But later on. But the overall potential will be reached. And I also don't believe that you're talking about a No1C either. A very good No2. We need to refine his skating technique though.