Jagr vs Ovechkin vs Crosby: Who is the best offensive player

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin wouldn’t even have his art Ross if Crosby wasent injured mid way as the leagues top scorer. He came back rusty and his ppg fell

Sid came back and scored 9 points in 7 games - a 1.29 PPG relative to his 1.37 pre injury PPG. It's not some big drop.

Regardless, Ovechkin was 1.37 for the entire season.

You don't have a point.

 

[Laveuglette]

If you look at offense only, Jagr > Crosby > OV and it's pretty clear imo.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Sid came back and scored 9 points in 7 games - a 1.29 PPG relative to his 1.37 pre injury PPG. It's not some big drop.

Regardless, Ovechkin was 1.37 for the entire season.

You don't have a point.

Crosby was higher than a 1.37 before his injury

 

[slapKing]

So when I mentioned who is the best offensive player, I meant just that. Over the course of their professional careers. I just listed their awards, scoring finishes, and totals as a reference/starting point. I didn't list the anyone's playoff stats but that is also fair game as well.

Not sure why some people are mentioning defense.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby was higher than a 1.37 before his injury

No. He absolutely wasn't.

This information is readily available:

NHL.com Stats

 

[Midnight Judges]

Not sure why some people are mentioning defense.

The assertion from daver was that Crosby could do more offense if he didn't have so much defensive responsibility.

But in reality Crosby doesn't do much defensively.

 

[Brucelenok]

Peak/Prime: Ovi = Jagr > Crosby (Jagr usually scored more points, but Ovi more goals which is tougher thing to do thats why I put them equal)
Over full careers: Jagr > Crosby > Ovi

 

[wetcoast]

delete

 

[wetcoast]

Peak/Prime: Ovi = Jagr > Crosby (Jagr usually scored more points, but Ovi more goals which is tougher thing to do thats why I put them equal)
Over full careers: Jagr > Crosby > Ovi

The thing is that when Jagr had 4 consecutive years leading the NHL in scoring in each and every year he was 2nd in goals and only 8 goals behind the leader.

He also had 88 more points than the guy in second place.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Jagr is his 7 year prime has 145 points more than 2nd place and first in goals (by 33 goals) and assists as well.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Peak and Prime is clearly Jagr here.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The thing is that when Jagr had 4 consecutive years leading the NHL in scoring in each and every year he was 2nd in goals and only 8 goals behind the leader.

He also had 88 more points than the guy in second place.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Jagr is his 7 year prime has 145 points more than 2nd place and first in goals (by 33 goals) and assists as well.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Peak and Prime is clearly Jagr here.

Over those seven years Jagr led the league in goals, assists, and points. Excluding Lemieux, he led the league in goals per game, assists per game, and points per game. He also led the league in both ES and PP scoring - doing this on both deep and paper-thin teams.

Aside from the big three forwards, Jagr was probably the best (and almost certainly the most versatile, well-rounded) offensive forward in league history.

 

[wetcoast]

Over those seven years Jagr led the league in goals, assists, and points. Excluding Lemieux, he led the league in goals per game, assists per game, and points per game. He also led the league in both ES and PP scoring - doing this on both deep and paper-thin teams.

Aside from the big three forwards, Jagr was probably the best (and almost certainly the most versatile, well-rounded) offensive forward in league history.

Hard to argue that.

I still think that he gets under rated in the HOH all time lists though.

 

[Varan]

Funny how this "aside" gets pushed aside when the talk of Cups gets brought up. Do you think the history books will care about anything other than how many you won as a player?

nice strawman

comparing team achievements to individual

 

[Varan]

You seem to be under the illusion that Jagr was barely winning his Art Rosses, or that he wasn't able to clearly able to create offense with his playmaking that counters OV's one man offensive game.

In no way, shape or form does OV "most likely win" an Art Ross against a peak Jagr or Crosby.

Peak OV was an overall offensive force. You clearly have it stuck in your brain that playmaking > goal scoring. OV was exit and entry on the ice all by himself. He could create offense for himself and by virtue of his immense talent.

You seem to be under the illusion that OV couldn't win the Ross at all because of his "lack of playmaking". Points are points at the end of the day and playmaking doesn't mean anything if it doesn't end up in a goal.

 

[Varan]

Ovechkin wouldn’t even have his art Ross if Crosby wasent injured mid way as the leagues top scorer. He came back rusty and his ppg fell

You have a crystal ball? Does it show an alternate universe where he wasn't hurt and won the Ross? Btw, his PPG fell to an insignificant amount. There's an argument that he doesn't outscore his own team mate in Malkin (which happened the following year)

Crosby wouldn't have any of his Rockets had OV not been injured/missed games.

 

[daver]

Peak OV was an overall offensive force. You clearly have it stuck in your brain that playmaking > goal scoring. OV was exit and entry on the ice all by himself. He could create offense for himself and by virtue of his immense talent.

You seem to be under the illusion that OV couldn't win the Ross at all because of his "lack of playmaking". Points are points at the end of the day and playmaking doesn't mean anything if it doesn't end up in a goal.

You are still under the illusion that OV was going to win Art Rosses against Jagr or Crosby at their peaks.

 

[Varan]

Crosby and Jagr are clearly superior all around offensive forces thus were able to put up superior point finishes/PPGs at their peak and throughout their primes. OV's Rocket seasons are appropriately valued by looking at his overall point totals and contribution, or lack thereof, on the defensive side of things. For example, he was terrible when he was shooting the puck in 2013/14.

OV's goal total in 07/08 makes up for some of that gap in terms of measuring their peak season/offensive ceiling but that's it. In Crosby's case, that he actually contributed on the defensive side of things widens that gap. I think OV, at his peak, was really close to Jagr, at his peak.

Not at their peak. How do you sit there and look at point totals for OV, but look at percentages for Crosby? What the actual hell?

What contributions did Crosby make defensively during his peak. Are you somehow suggesting that he was held back from his role. He barely did anything defensively back then

 

[daver]

nice strawman

comparing team achievements to individual

Don't worry, the history books will show how Crosby had four Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Sid came back and scored 9 points in 7 games - a 1.29 PPG relative to his 1.37 pre injury PPG. It's not some big drop.

Regardless, Ovechkin was 1.37 for the entire season.

You don't have a point.

You have a crystal ball? Does it show an alternate universe where he wasn't hurt and won the Ross? Btw, his PPG fell to an insignificant amount. There's an argument that he doesn't outscore his own team mate in Malkin (which happened the following year)

Crosby wouldn't have any of his Rockets had OV not been injured/missed games.

Ask him if Malkin wins the 09 ross if OV (1st in PPG) doesn't miss games or who gets the 2010 ross, rocket and hart if OV (1st in GPG and PPG) doesn't miss games. Hint: you'll see the goal posts move lol

 

[Varan]

You are still under the illusion that OV was going to win Art Rosses against Jagr or Crosby at their peaks.

Illusion? OV is the best here at his peak, so what kind of illusion is that?

 

[daver]

Not at their peak. How do you sit there and look at point totals for OV, but look at percentages for Crosby? What the actual hell?

What are you talking about? In what world is OV on Crosby's level in point production at their peaks?

 

[Varan]

Don't worry, the history books will show how Crosby had four Conn Smythe worthy playoff runs.

Oh yes! I forgot, there is a section in the books for "Runs". I don't want to start this again but you seem to keep bringing it up. You know damn well one of his runs was arguably the weakest run of all time.

 

[daver]

Illusion? OV is the best here at his peak, so what kind of illusion is that?

When you are going to finish behind the points leader be it Jagr or Crosby by 10% to 15%, your claim as best becomes quite questionable.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Not at their peak. How do you sit there and look at point totals for OV, but look at percentages for Crosby? What the actual hell?

What contributions did Crosby make defensively during his peak. Are you somehow suggesting that he was held back from his role. He barely did anything defensively back then

And even if he did, who cares? Peak OV tilted the ice more than Crosby ever did so it's an irrelevant point anyway. OV didn't need to play defense because the puck was never in his own zone. Crosby had to play D because he wasn't good enough to keep the puck in the offensive zone as much as OV.

 

[daver]

Oh yes! I forgot, there is a section in the books for "Runs". I don't want to start this again but you seem to keep bringing it up. You know damn well one of his runs was arguably the weakest run of all time.

I am sure the history books aren't going to include a quote by some random poster. As you said, the only important thing is his name will show up as the winner with no context, just like all Art Ross winners are all the same right?

Shitty when your words come back to haunt you eh?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Illusion? OV is the best here at his peak, so what kind of illusion is that?

The same illusion that leads one to believe that Crosby played "160 consecutive games" from 2010-2013 lol