Jagr vs Crosby, who "was" more talented?

[Wounded]

May I know, where do you get all those detailed stats, guys? I would like to know, what were the PP opportunities for Jagr vs his peers, for Crosby vs his peers and for Jagr vs Crosby. I mean how many PP opportunities did Pens have compared to Jagr's and Crosby's rivals in Jagr's and Crosby's prime time.

 

[FinProspects]

Crosby vs Jagr has beaten to death to be honest.

Dont you people understand that we cannot have a valid comparison between these two until Crosby is 35-40y old, because their careers have been so different:

Jagr, first couple of years as a 20y old Euro-player under Mario's shadow, then this immense dominating period from 95 to 99, then couple average years, comeback, KHL, comeback etc..

Crosby has been in NHL since 18, always consistent, but has not reached peak-Jagr level, at least not yet. He is only 27, so there's still many years ahead of him. It might be that Crosby will be 100point player again in next season, or 5 years from now.

Who knows man..

But one thing is sure: They both will be regarded as one of the best of their generation. I think that is enough at this point. Lets come back to this in 5 years.

 

[Ralgo]

(MOD)

------------

You guys put all kinds of stats here, but I think youre all offtopic.

Question is on talent. Talent is not something you can build from nothing, talent is what you got from birth.

Jagr was, is and probably will the one guy training harder than anyone else in his free time AFTER teams and regular solo trainings on and OFF the ice. He was talented, but he never stopped working on every bit of this talent.

Crosby? Not so much.

-------

According to leadership abilities, I dunno who even dare to say Crosby was a better leader. But I got two words for ya: Nagano 98 nad IIHF 2010 (well more than three words), where czech rep team full of guys none of you knew (and most of czech ppl didnt know too at that time) literally survived every game until the final where they defended their solo golden hattrick on IIHFs championships against russia.

Not to say, if there wasnt Jagr, there wouldnt be Penguins in Pittsburg today most probably. Injured captain stepped on the ice, tied the game and then put in GWG in overtime, saving Penguins when they couldnt afford to loose.

( fast reminder aka first google result: http://www.nj.com/devils/index.ssf/2012/05/jaromir_jagr_1999_goal_vs_devi.html )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40KX2ssMCGE

-------

According to characters - both guys have been primadonas, Jagr was a gambler loosing money faster than he was making them, was also a jackass etc. Crosby was, is and probably will be crybaby. Jagr is still sometimes jackass, but he changed to a leader, enjoying his teammates succeses and glory.

-------

And trying to say who had worse conditions to shine.... imho lol (again). Jagr was as fast as Crosby in the era when "defence" was just a coverup name for bands of ogres, trolls and all kind of monsters, who "defended" in a way, which would bring them 2-10 mins punishment just for stepping on the ice TODAY.

I know there was a lots of vids, but this fanmade is also good (even with music which didnt need to be there).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeyJBOoc094

 

[Rhiessan71]

3 art ross trophies> 6 50 goal seasons. 3 art ross trophies puts crosby cements crosby as an all time legend. Only the true greats have won that many. 50 goals is great but everyone knows ross>richard. If crosby wins the art ross 20-30 years from now no one will be saying ovechkin was better. History remembers the art ross winner majority of the time.

Just answer the question. What's a better season...50 goals and 80 points or 25 goals and 85 points?
C'mon be honest now, it's pretty much a rhetorical question, it really is.

You tried to say Ross>Richard.

I never said anything about the Richard, I said 50 goal seasons.

Are you honestly going to tell us all that Crosby winning the Ross with 85 points is still greater than OV's Richard in 08 with 65 freakin goals?

Winning the Ross with 85 points would be like winning the Richard with 35 goals. Sure you get your name on the trophy but they would both be weak wins dismissed easily.

You think Crosby is on the cusp of Greatness do you?
How about this for being on the cusp...1 more 50 goal season by OV and it will be his 7th, he will then become only the 3rd player ever to accomplish that, THAT'S Greatness my friend.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Just answer the question. What's a better season...50 goals and 80 points or 25 goals and 85 points?
C'mon be honest now, it's pretty much a rhetorical question, it really is.

You tried to say Ross>Richard.

I never said anything about the Richard, I said 50 goal seasons.

Are you honestly going to tell us all that Crosby winning the Ross with 85 points is still greater than OV's Richard in 08 with 65 freakin goals?

Winning the Ross with 85 points would be like winning the Richard with 35 goals. Sure you get your name on the trophy but they would both be weak wins dismissed easily.

You think Crosby is on the cusp of Greatness do you?
How about this for being on the cusp...1 more 50 goal season by OV and it will be his 7th, he will then become only the 3rd player ever to accomplish that, THAT'S Greatness my friend.

85 points>80. 85 GOALS were created in contrast to 80.

List of 3+ art ross winners
Gretzky
Lemieux
Jagr
Lafleur
Bobby hull
Howe
Mikita
Esposito

As you can see those are basically the top players of all time. The art ross is and will always be better than the richard.

 

[daver]

May I know, where do you get all those detailed stats, guys? I would like to know, what were the PP opportunities for Jagr vs his peers, for Crosby vs his peers and for Jagr vs Crosby. I mean how many PP opportunities did Pens have compared to Jagr's and Crosby's rivals in Jagr's and Crosby's prime time.

It's not about Jagr getting more PP opportunities than his peers or vs. Crosby, it's about Jagr and his peers getting more PP opportunities vs. Crosby and his peers especially in the last 4 to 5 years.

The way to remove this dynamic is to simply measure peer vs. peer stats rather than trying to adjust.

For TOI stats, go to http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?sea...=&status=&viewName=timeOnIce&sort=points&ord=

Using the filter button you can go back to any year until 1998, focus on forwards, and on PP TOI/game.

 

[daver]

3 art ross trophies> 6 50 goal seasons. 3 art ross trophies puts crosby cements crosby as an all time legend. Only the true greats have won that many. 50 goals is great but everyone knows ross>richard. If crosby wins the art ross 20-30 years from now no one will be saying ovechkin was better. History remembers the art ross winner majority of the time.

OV's 65 goal campaign is arguably the best season post lockout and OV is putting himself in some very exclusive company all-time in terms of goalscoring.

OV is without a doubt the best goalscorer of his generation and likely goes down as a Top 5 goalscorer all-time.

Crosby is the best player of his era, albeit less clearly, and could creep into the Top 10 -15 player of all-time, and the best since Wayne and Mario.

The next 3 to 5 seasons could cement their positions.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

3 art rosses
2 harts
3 Lindsay's

Looks damn good.

Ovechkin is stacking his award case up with Richards which is great and all but has no place when comparing it to an art ross

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Crosby's possibly the most overall talented/complete player of his era, but it's his strength on the grind that sets him apart from most skillt today, while Jagr's skill back in the day set him apart from those on the grind. I think Jagr might actually have (had) the "harder to replace" offensive skills/instincts compared to Crosby. Not unlike sports cars of today vs yesterday, there's something that reliability, efficiency, and options just don't make up for at the end of the day when talking about the ability to stand out in the crowd. Jagr was a Lamborghini competing against Fords/GMs while Crosby's more of a BMW competing against Hondas/Toyotas, if that makes sense to anyone.

 

[Voight]

3 art ross trophies> 6 50 goal seasons. 3 art ross trophies puts crosby cements crosby as an all time legend. Only the true greats have won that many. 50 goals is great but everyone knows ross>richard.

Did you know Ovechkin has 3 Harts? Only the true greats have won that many.

3x Hart Winners

Wayne Gretxky - 9
Gordie Howe - 6
Eddie Shore - 4
Howie Morenz - 3
Bobby Clarke - 3
Mario Lemieux - 3
Bobby Orr - 3
Alex Ovechkin - 3

85 points>80. 85 GOALS were created in contrast to 80.

List of 3+ art ross winners
Gretzky
Lemieux
Jagr
Lafleur
Bobby hull
Howe
Mikita
Esposito

As you can see those are basically the top players of all time.

Cool, heres some facts too:

Most times leading the NHL in goals
7 = Bobby Hull
6 = Phil Esposito
5 = Charlie Conacher, Maurice Richard, Gordie Howe, Wayne Gretzky, Alexander Ovechkin (If he does this year, which seems very VERY likely)
4 = NONE
3 = Babe Dye, Brett Hull, Mario Lemieux, Teemu Selanne, Pavel Bure

As you can see those re basically the top players of all time, minus Selanne and maybe Bure.

Crosby's possibly the most overall talented/complete player of his era, but it's his strength on the grind that sets him apart from most skillt today, while Jagr's skill back in the day set him apart from those on the grind. I think Jagr might actually have (had) the "harder to replace" offensive skills/instincts compared to Crosby. Not unlike sports cars of today vs yesterday, there's something that reliability, efficiency, and options just don't make up for at the end of the day when talking about the ability to stand out in the crowd. Jagr was a Lamborghini competing against Fords/GMs while Crosby's more of a BMW competing against Hondas/Toyotas, if that makes sense to anyone.

Disagree with this. Datsyuk has something to say about that.

Good analogy tho, makes sense to me.

 

[Elvis P]

Horrible topic idea. Why don't we ask who was more talented, Crosby or Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, and Orr?

 

[Voight]

Horrible topic idea. Why don't we ask who was more talented, Crosby or Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, and Orr?

There wouldn't be a point.

On a per game basis, Crosby is better than Howe.

 

[drganon]

There wouldn't be a point.

On a per game basis, Crosby is better than Howe.

PPG is the only stat that matters.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Smh at the notion of the richard being on the same level as the art ross

 

[Elvis P]

PPG is the only stat that matters.

I hope this is sarcasm. Crosby is not the 5th best ever and Howe is not the 37th best ever.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Yeah... we're done here.