Player Discussion Jack Eichel - Switching from #15 to #9
- Thread starter LaxSabre
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Heraldic
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- Dec 12, 2013
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ROR has had his chance on taking a leadership role and actually lead. So far he has been unable to do that, and it might be that the ship has already sailed. I personally was hopeful that he would be the leader but so far it seems I was too optimistic.
I have no idea how you're able to pull something like that when I explicitly myself brought up the sample size factor in the first place. I mean, wtf...
What you're implying there is that Eichel's ES numbers are inflated by Kane in a fashion that might not be compensated.
The point is, that it really isn't an issue. Eichel needs competent wingers (just like any other top-line center), but Kane specifically is not the necessity (it's the opposite, in fact).
What this has anything to do about anything here? Beside, we have had this conversation multiple times before already. And still you don't seem to understand why other is used more as a center when the player is pretty much useless as a winger whilethe counterpart is a useful as a winger.
And it's interesting that you (as an admitted fan boy of Larsson) bring Larsson up here while he is having an absolutely brutal season. Our tank roster would have been envy of his rate of getting scored against and not getting scored himself. Of ANY players in the league who have played at least 250 minutes on ES, none are even close as Larsson is GF% wise. But this really isn't a thread about Larsson.
You do understand that you're playing the "true scotsman" fallacy here pretty ignorantly? As pointed out several months ago, there were several incentives to give sign the contract. Evidently those were enough to make the deal being done. And we don't really know the weight of every factor there, because we simply have no idea what mid-term plan Botteril has.
It seems that you have started this narrative about this extension being somekind of disaster. First of all, it is utterly stupid to claim something like that when the contract itself hasn't even kicked in. And I will tell you how that narrative doesn't even make this season. It seems that the more desperate you get protecting your agendas, the more foolish your narratives become.
Nice way to try to dodge the bullet. Instead of just admitting you didn't have any clue what you were talking about, you decided to spit some irrelevant nonsense.
Like you can easily see yourself, the talk was always 8 year deal. And you with 8x8 talk and comparisons to Gaudreau and Tarasenko just showed how out to lunch you were.
You never had a clue about the contract despite you claim so. Just like you shifted your story about the "draft for need" narrative. For very long you claimed that teams actually follow the "draft for need" concept, and that bad organisations like Edmonton don't. You even claimed that Sabres followed that concept in 2013 draft. I mean, before you were reminded about Domi/Zadorov aspect, which made your narrative look completely ridiculous.
What the hell? You seriously can't be this clueless? You really can't change the premises unless you're negotiating with a moron. Sure, if Risto's agent were negotiating with you instead of Murray, he could have tried to change the premises by trying to sell you the narrative of you having no leverage and you actually buying that. But in real life there are not that kind of idiots who don't understand the basic fundamentals of negotiation (like there evidently are here in this forum for example).
The certainty and the money certainly were big incentives for both parties - and they both got it. The last part is just your silly narrative.
You don't seem to even understand that this quote shows very clearly that you STILL cannot understand the premises. Even though that there have been several persons tryinh to bang those things in to your head and the real world actually followed that reasoning.
It's pretty clear that you have no idea about the market place here.
This is another great example of you not understanding anything about the market here. I have no idea how you think that I were wrong in any way, when I predicted the ballpark of the contract exactly right (unlike you, lol) and actually told you the reasons for you. Just because you don't agree with the market, doesn't mean you can change it. This is very basic stuff...
Now you're talking about a different thing. You can argue that no contract should have been signed. But you need more information (the type of information we're not able to get) from all the factors being involved. It remains to be seen how that contract works out.
The point obviously isn't what Eichel has accomplished, but what he will accomplish. It's obvious fact that players like Eichel are paid for potential and expectations. Even Murray said that with young players you pay for the potential and with older guys you pay for the past merits. If you can't understand that fact, and the way the market is trending, you're simply a lost case.
You seem to confuse here "hard work" and habits which are more of a mental thing. There really isn't any doubt that Eichel is a hard working guy when you think his physical side of things. That requires a tons of things, and you don't acquire that kind of strength without tons of effort.
The flaws Eichel has are easily traceable to his junior/college times. He simply didn't have to have a complete game to be totally dominant. Those are habits which develop with long time. That's the reason you really cannot fix them quickly and you really cannot speed up the process with monetary incentives - it simply doesn't work like that. You cannot motivate a depressed person to be not depressed by giving him monetary incentives and telling him to "work hard".
That's where the culture/leadership comes in. It's a process and it requires right type of mentoring and authority. Something we obviously lack here.
But lets' get back to the "Eichel hasn't developed and this contract ruined his development" nonsense. Since we simply disagree about the on-ice performance (he has had such complete games this season that he definitely didn't even sniff close to last season), let's take a statistical approach. Let's go season by season.
2015-2016
Sabres
GF 1,83, GA 2,27, GF% 45.23
Eichel
GF 2.01, GA 2.57, GF% 43.82
On his first season Eichel had a pretty sheltered role. Except GF his numbers were below the team average.
2016-2017
Sabres
GF 1.88, GA 2.32, GF% 44.84
Eichel
GF 2.33, GA 2.77, GF% 45.68
On his second season his role was pretty much the same as on his first. Eichel lost 20 games and around the christmas really turned things up. Except the GA, his numbers improved and his GF% went above the team average. The team's performance was pretty much the same as the previous season.
2017-2018
Sabres
GF 1.83, GA 2.65, GF% 40.87
Eichel
GF 2.77, GA 2.77, GF% 50.00
This season Eichel's role has changed dramatically - he has been the one who has been facing top-lines more than any other center in this team. Overall the team has performed clearly worse - especially goals allowed.
Despite those factors Eichel has been able to clearly improve his GF number and first time in his career Eichel hasn't been a net-negative player on ice, despite the fact the the team average is clearly net negative. His absolute GA number is same, but when you take into account the more challenging role and worse performance by the team, it's clear that the has done better there as well.
This really shows that this "no development" narrative is totally stupid. Whether is it the eye-test or statistics, everything supports development. Of course, if you're simply looking POINTS, you might get distracted here. But as we know, Jame would never do that since he always blames everyone else of doing that...
So it isn't only your memory that is not working properly - it is also your reading comprehension.
It's pretty clear that I made a prediction in 1 million range, and my prediction hit the ballpark...
It seems that now you realised that there were clear posts showing how clueless you were there, you started changing goal posts.
ZZamboni
Puttin' on the Foil
joshjull
Registered User
joshjull
Registered User
I love your "I was right even though I was wrong rants." Reminds me of the Toews/Kane contract discussions or the insanity of four 1st rounders for Brassard.
I already think Jack has the drive to be the best version of himself. He just needs time and guidance to get there. So I don't see the need for the hysterics you and sabrebuild among others bring to this discussion. I see a GM thats believes in him and wanted to commit to/build around him and paid the price that fit.
I do get a kick out of you repeatedly describing Jack in very negative terms as a player and person. But somehow all those negatives magically go away for good if we wait a year on his deal. I mean you actually believe your own silliness on this? That he is a horrible selfish, lazy person who wants everything he his way and the team is indulging him. But had we waited a year to give him the deal all those traits magically wash away?
In short much of your ranting about Jack has been irrational and based, in part, on things that go beyond just Jack. There is a little ROR not being captain frustration mixed in with Botts letting Carrier go. So obviously his contract with Jack means he's panicked moron.
He's on pace for more ES points (in 61gms) than he had last year (he was before his hat trick as well). If our PP wasn't as horrible as it is he would be on pace for more points than last year as well. Currently he's on pace for 1/4th the amount of PP points he had last year.
I love when people pat themselves on the back for being right about what a terribly run organization chooses to do.
Cool.
I do get a kick out of you repeatedly describing Jack in very negative terms as a player and person. But somehow all those negatives magically go away for good if we wait a year on his deal. I mean you actually believe your own silliness on this? That he is a horrible selfish, lazy person who wants everything he his way and the team is indulging him. But had we waited a year to give him the deal all those traits magically wash away?
Bulls hit straw man
You’ve already tried this
I corrected you
And here you are pitching it again
Weak
So his pp production is an excuse, not a criticism... classic
MightyMuffins
Registered User
- Jan 17, 2017
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Now IDK if it's just me but something to me I have noticed now I never brought up before but Eichel is a very streaky player I feel like or rather he seems to do his damage in bunches. Like the hat trick game was like the game everyone was like "oh he's out of his funk now", but to me IDK....Jack is very inconsistent and the big single games hide his stats I think in a way to the season and career he seems to have. Like consistency I think is the big issue I see with Jack right now thru December.
Also again as we saw at times in the Bruins game Jack is trying to do far too much alone and rather than just letting the game come to him.
Also again as we saw at times in the Bruins game Jack is trying to do far too much alone and rather than just letting the game come to him.
Last edited:
darcyRegier
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- Mar 27, 2017
- 2,401
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I agree, but it is 100% to do with the fact that he is the only player on his line capable of consistently bringing in the puck into the o-zone with possession + creating plays off that. Pominville, although a good defensive player, is nothing more than an one-time option for Jack. Evander does have the capability of having a transition game, but far too often he'll try a move that immediately gets poke-checked away, or he'll take a turnover causing shot.
Jack has no options when he's out on the ice because he doesn't play with anyone even remotely capable of making someone miss and then finding Jack open in a soft area for a good chance. Hence, him trying to create on his own.
No, I don't like him trying to do too much. But I think it has forced him to become a better stickhandler and dangler, which he is miles better at than when he was a rookie. I also think this will pay off in spades when we surround him with some actual talent, be it Middlestadt/Nylander/Smith or any other option in the pipeline. Even ROR would help ease the pressure Jack is under to create something every shift.
MightyMuffins
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- Jan 17, 2017
- 111
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Kyndig
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- Jan 3, 2012
- 5,147
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Eichel has 14 points in 12 games this month. 9 points in his last 5 games.
Pretty much all of us knew Girgensons and Eichel play well together but even still I'm a bit surprised they've been this good together the last few games.
They showed the same chemistry when Jack first entered the league. Hopefully they are just left alone.
Snippit
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- Dec 5, 2012
- 16,629
- 9,961
aceface33
Registered User
They seriously need to park Jack in the Ovechkin spot and have him let it rip on the Powerplays.
UnleashRasmus
Rasmus has gone Super Saiyan VI!
Almost a hat trick within centimeters. He played above water, including a few rather unlike Jack defensive plays.
Sabres
Registered User
If Jack keeps playing well with Girgensons I'd rather leave them and have Casey run another scoring line. Obviously this is years down the line, not when he's a rookie.
Rasmus CacOlainen
The end of the Tank
Why not? Something like Smith - Mittelstadt - Pomers could be a thing next season for example as our 3rd line with easy-ish minutes. Im fairly confident Casey will be able to center a depth scoring line next year if he's asked to do so. If we keep Kane for some reason we can just let the top 2 lines go as they are now (unless Nylander can slot in top6 somewhere instead).
That leaves Jack playing with Sam and Girgs which is something we know works.
Hasek
Registered User
- Jan 2, 2013
- 963
- 550
I have my fingers crossed that he does.
Royal Thunder
Frolunda Mode
- Feb 21, 2012
- 4,407
- 3,427
I would be shocked if he changed from 15 at this point
CatsforReinhart
Registered User
So Eichel has more goals than McDavid. Ya its not a big deal and it is only 38 games in but got to mean something right?
dotcommunism
Moderator
- Aug 16, 2007
- 5,182
- 3,348
Not really. McDavid had 100 points last season but only 30 goals. Eichel missed 21 games and had 24 goals (that's a 32 goal pace). At this point of his career McDavid is more a playmaker than a goalscorer (not that 30 goals is anything to scoff at of course, it's just not Richard territory). Eichel having slightly more goals in itself doesn't really mean much (as it pertains to comparisons to McDavid and being a generational talent, that is).
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