Player Discussion Jack Eichel - Switching from #15 to #9

[Aladyyn]

Since everyone loves small sample sizes on this board. Sam Reinhart is on pace for 6 more points then Jack Eichel currently has, 29 points total. One gets criticized non stop, the other is a golden child.

Yes, nobody criticizes Reinhart, ever

 

[Heraldic]

So failing as a leader is defined in wins?

I have no idea where you got something like that in your head.

Complaining about not getting a leadership responsibility on other organisation (=the other organisation didn't see him as the leader he himself saw himself), then getting into another organisation with the clear purpose of building the culture right and being one of the (if not the biggest) veteran presence in the locker room with the experience he had. During the third season the team's culture is abysmal, which means the leadership group did a bad job and failed. ROR simply hasn't shown any reason to be named as a captain. He had his chance, and he didn't use it. Blaming itself and telling how himself should be more vocal etc. are not really indications of being a leader. ROR is not part of the problem, but he clearly isn't a solution - a solution which a veteran presence with leadership should offer.

But you're never going to admit it. I mean, you were the one who really adamantly thought and shouted that ROR being the captain after Gionta was settled at the very moment he was traded here.

You're confusing the topics. Kane/Eichel don't work optimally together. That's very true. But they do produce ES offense together. It's imply that the other 90% of the game, is garbage.

Interesting considering that I explicitly said that they produce... There are myriad of reasons why Kane is not the optimal winger for Eichel - and most of those reasons have to do with the offensive side of the game.

Man... i love how how you pin ball on sample size.... lol

Maybe... include last season for a better sample size? Uh oh... your narrative might break...

But hey... sure, taking away the 2nd highest ES Goal Scorer in the NHL over the last 12 months... won't affect Eichel... because he's a superstar, on a 63 point pace....

Let's not get distracted here. You were worried about Eichel's ES production without Kane. This season Eichel's ES production has been just fine - relatively speaking it is better than last season. Statistically Kane really hasn't been a factor there. Sure, if we replace Kane with Griffith or Larsson, it sure will have a negative impact on his production. But that is not really a viable scenario.

It's interesting you bring up Kane being a top ES producer and at the same discredit Eichel pointing to his point pace. Showing your agenda like that probably is not goint to help your credibility. Kane wouldn't be there without Eichel and that likely isn't under any debate. When we take into account the total goal scoring of this team and the lack of PP goals, Eichel's point pace isn't that awful. Is it absolutely great? Of course not. But you repeatedly pointing there is just silly.

I don't know what you're referencing

Of course not. How about, for example, refreshing your memory about last season related to Larsson's defensive metrics and the reasons for them and compare them to the driven narrative here by you.

You wasted a lot of energy regurgitating an argument that I fully understood, and completely disagreed with. I said numerous times that I was fully aware and prepared for the likely outcome, and then I argued with fact as to why it was a stupid way to go. Not that it wasn't possible and not that it wasn't likely... but that it was dumb. And here we are...

This seems to be another case of your poor recollection of memory. We had two separate conversation. First was about the incentives Buffalo and Eichel has to get the deal done now. I gave a pretty thorough explanation regarding that. Wether those reasons were enough to push for the deal, really comes to what Botteril was planning during the off-season. We actually addressed the possibility of waiting until the next off-season - but you need to actually aknowledge the negatives in that scenario if you're going to call anything dumb. You don't seem to be doing that, which make you look simply ranting prat. You can't really eat and save the cake.

The other conversation was about the premises dictating the cap hit of the 8 year deal getting signed now. The whole conversation was based on the very premise of Eichel getting signed. That's where you utterly failed to understand the situation (and seemingly keep doing that). You referred to Ekblad etc. You were talking about "earning" etc. And that's exactly where you showed (and keep showing) your lack of really understanding the situation. It reminds me very closely about the Risto negotiation and you talking about the situation being compared to a situation where one gots a fatal disease and the other the cure. That made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Being in a situation you can't really shape the premises the way you want. You can shout as much as you want that your contract should be based on earning or whatever - but that simply doesn't work with players like Eichel. As I explained before, there is a strong trend about teams investing those cornerstone pieces - and those cornerstone pieces see the situation and take advantage of it. Doughty and Karlsson giving their comments reflects the situation as well. That's why the price of those UFA years has DRASTICALLY gone up. Pretty much every contract reflects that situation. You seem to think that Pastrnak contract wasn't impacted that factor, and that shows your lack of understanding. The standard was 6 million, but Pastrnak got it up by over half a million. For only a two year UFA term that is huge raise. And the fact that Boston didn't feel comfortable about 8 year deal tells that they didn't like to pay significantly more because the relative price of every UFA year rises as the more there is.

Botteril and Sabres simply don't have the luxury of neglecting the realities and start to lowball Eichel. Eichel is the only legimite chance to have a bonafide franchise player here - one with it is a lot easier to win a cup than without - so you have to be careful there. Sabres are not Chicago or Penguins - far from it.

In a 3rd season, where Eichel will score at around a Pastrnak level at best, while we will pay him 33% more.

Wrong. Boston is paying Pastrnak over 500% more.

We would've been far better off letting him play the season, and play FOR 80 million. Instead we get to watch him coast... The risk that Eichel would perform to a level that would've coast us MORE than 80 million, wasn't a risk at all.... like I said... that would've been a BENEFIT. I would LOVE for Eichel to be playing his ass off for a mega contract... I'd give that player 12 million.

You seem to save the cake and eat it here again...

Anyway, it's strange that you seem to be totally content of paying him 12 million more, but seem to think that the world is over because at best we could have saved the same 2 million.

Because of your agenda you don't seem to see that you're looking just the other side of the coin.

It was a strategic failure. A simple minded approach. And it has backfired. We will never get the young star playing AND developing in a contract season. We flushed that development and opportunity down the toilet for what? Potentially saving 1 or 2 million per year in cap space?

Oh, I forgot that you actually think that Eichel hasn't developed at all since his first game... Whether we gave him the contract or not, likely wouldn't have impacted on his development at all. There are myriad of reasons impacting and those are totally irrelevant to his contract.

There was nothing out to lunch about understanding the entirety and simplicity of the argument for the contract Eichel got, and simply disagreeing with it.

You are reframing the past. I never argued that Eichel WOULDN'T get 10 per. I argued that it was dumb to do that. And here we are.

And dont think its forgotten... how you hedged every possible position with nonsense like:
"less than 8.5 is unlikely, 8.5-9.5 is possible, 9.5 to 10.5 most likely, greater than 10.5 possible"

My memory is better than yours[/QUOTE]

I have definitely lost the count of the times that you arrogantly claim me to talk something and you yourself not...

But I did the legwork here:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...sam-next-summer.2365203/page-8#post-134442733

Here you pretty explicitly say that you think 8x8 is the contract...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/jack-eichel-–-part-3.2180021/page-28#post-135062971

Here I make the prediction of 9,5-10,5, which you happen to question (so despite it being pretty much right there where it ended up being, you disagreed...). I also after that if I had to wager, I would say that 9,5-10,5. And it landed right in the middle... Pretty far from your 8 million...

The irony here is that, when your thinking is based on what he "should" get or what he "earns", is based purely on your own feelings about how things should according to you, you talk about others basing their arguments on "feelings". The fact is, that you simply doesn't seem to understand how things go.

So, about your memory....

We paid the bad organization tax.

This is part of the picture. We're a bad organisation and being able to keep a potential franchise player to the next 8 years is a win alone. Eichel is the closest of a franchise player we will probably get during the next 8 years, so it's not like there isn't anything on stake.

I don't think that the attractiveness of this organisation has been as bad as it is right now since the rebuild started.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

Please for the love of god at some point give ERod a game or three with Eichel. They had success at BU and I see the chemistry on the PP here now.

 

[Kyndig]

Since people love bitching about Eichel's $10 million he isn't even making yet (added by the fact that the cap is going up $4Million)... Toews has been making 10.5M since Eichel's DRAFT YEAR on a stacked team(I don't recall Eichel ever getting to play with a single player in the caliber of Patrick Kane, Panarin, Hossa, or Saad) and he has never put up 82 points in a single season, the only season he was a PPG was in 2012 when he put up 48 pts in 47 games. By the time Eichel's contract is over in 8 years he will still have been younger than Toews this season.

Eichel was .93 points per game last season as a 20 year old which is better than all but two of Toews seasons...all the while Eichel did it playing with a bunch of garbage wingers.I'd like to see other superstars point totals playing with the trash Eichel has had to play with. Lets review Eichel's most common linemates.

2017-2018 .77 points per game so far 31 games in. 8G/16A (nearly no powerplay points this year)
91% Kane
65% Pominville
22% Reinhart
8% Girgensons
7% Bailey
6% Okposo

2016-2017 .93 points per game 24G/33A (amazing considering injury/ linemates and thus why he got paid the way he did)
84% Reinhart
40% Foligno
27% Kane
25% Moulson
8% ROR
8% Okposo
8% Ennis

2015-2016 .69 points per game 24G/32A (rookie season, still decent totals)
69% Reinhart
55% Kane
31% Girgensons
17% Gionta
13% Deslauriers
13% Moulson

Not one single player in that entire list is a top 6 winger at the time of playing with Eichel. Shame on you Eichel for not having a single PPG season.

There is going to be a lot of crow served in this thread, it might not be this season but it will happen eventually.

 

[Jame]

I have no idea where you got something like that in your head.

Complaining about not getting a leadership responsibility on other organisation (=the other organisation didn't see him as the leader he himself saw himself), then getting into another organisation with the clear purpose of building the culture right and being one of the (if not the biggest) veteran presence in the locker room with the experience he had. During the third season the team's culture is abysmal, which means the leadership group did a bad job and failed. ROR simply hasn't shown any reason to be named as a captain. He had his chance, and he didn't use it. Blaming itself and telling how himself should be more vocal etc. are not really indications of being a leader. ROR is not part of the problem, but he clearly isn't a solution - a solution which a veteran presence with leadership should offer.

But you're never going to admit it. I mean, you were the one who really adamantly thought and shouted that ROR being the captain after Gionta was settled at the very moment he was traded here.

I admit that the guy the franchise failed to name captain, hasn't been the captain...

But I agree in the parallels between Colorado and Buffalo as two very poorly run franchises who have failed for the better part of the last decade to identify leaders and promote them as leaders.

Let's not get distracted here. You were worried about Eichel's ES production without Kane. This season Eichel's ES production has been just fine - relatively speaking it is better than last season. Statistically Kane really hasn't been a factor there. Sure, if we replace Kane with Griffith or Larsson, it sure will have a negative impact on his production. But that is not really a viable scenario.

As long as it's clear, that 80 minute sample sizes are fair game now.

It's interesting you bring up Kane being a top ES producer and at the same discredit Eichel pointing to his point pace. Showing your agenda like that probably is not goint to help your credibility. Kane wouldn't be there without Eichel and that likely isn't under any debate. When we take into account the total goal scoring of this team and the lack of PP goals, Eichel's point pace isn't that awful. Is it absolutely great? Of course not. But you repeatedly pointing there is just silly.

I'm not discrediting Eichel.

I'm perfectly happy to come back and re-visit the end of year results after Kane is traded, and Eichel spends the rest of the year with Pouliot's.

Of course not. How about, for example, refreshing your memory about last season related to Larsson's defensive metrics and the reasons for them and compare them to the driven narrative here by you.

We are on to a 2nd coach who believes Larsson is a better center than Girgs...

This seems to be another case of your poor recollection of memory. We had two separate conversation. First was about the incentives Buffalo and Eichel has to get the deal done now. I gave a pretty thorough explanation regarding that. Wether those reasons were enough to push for the deal, really comes to what Botteril was planning during the off-season. We actually addressed the possibility of waiting until the next off-season - but you need to actually aknowledge the negatives in that scenario if you're going to call anything dumb. You don't seem to be doing that, which make you look simply ranting prat. You can't really eat and save the cake.

The only true incentive to get a deal done early, was that Eichel "might" put up a McDavid-esque season.

You would argue that Buffalo couldn't risk being in a contract dispute with it's franchise star. I argued that the ramifications of catering to the kid, before he'd earned anything were far far worse. And here we are. A team with the identity of Jack Eichel.

The other conversation was about the premises dictating the cap hit of the 8 year deal getting signed now. The whole conversation was based on the very premise of Eichel getting signed. That's where you utterly failed to understand the situation (and seemingly keep doing that). You referred to Ekblad etc. You were talking about "earning" etc. And that's exactly where you showed (and keep showing) your lack of really understanding the situation. It reminds me very closely about the Risto negotiation and you talking about the situation being compared to a situation where one gots a fatal disease and the other the cure. That made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I was perfectly fine with 6 years....

Being in a situation you can't really shape the premises the way you want. You can shout as much as you want that your contract should be based on earning or whatever - but that simply doesn't work with players like Eichel. As I explained before, there is a strong trend about teams investing those cornerstone pieces - and those cornerstone pieces see the situation and take advantage of it. Doughty and Karlsson giving their comments reflects the situation as well. That's why the price of those UFA years has DRASTICALLY gone up. Pretty much every contract reflects that situation. You seem to think that Pastrnak contract wasn't impacted that factor, and that shows your lack of understanding. The standard was 6 million, but Pastrnak got it up by over half a million. For only a two year UFA term that is huge raise. And the fact that Boston didn't feel comfortable about 8 year deal tells that they didn't like to pay significantly more because the relative price of every UFA year rises as the more there is.

Botts could've shaped the premise differently. And the franchise AND Eichel both would've been better off.

Nobody really won. Eichel got his money. The Sabres got their certainty. And the franchise will be mired in the much because of it.

Botteril and Sabres simply don't have the luxury of neglecting the realities and start to lowball Eichel. Eichel is the only legimite chance to have a bonafide franchise player here - one with it is a lot easier to win a cup than without - so you have to be careful there. Sabres are not Chicago or Penguins - far from it.

A contract that is inline with every other reality in the market place besides one outlier that cannot objectively be correlated to Eichel... is not lowballing.

Wrong. Boston is paying Pastrnak over 500% more.

Semantics. If Eichel plays out this season at a Pastrnak scoring pace... will be all the evidence needed to prove how wrong you, botts, and everyone else were.

Anyway, it's strange that you seem to be totally content of paying him 12 million more, but seem to think that the world is over because at best we could have saved the same 2 million.

If he put up a 100 pt MVP level season, and actually proved what type of player he was. Why would I have a problem paying the max for that type of player?

.

Oh, I forgot that you actually think that Eichel hasn't developed at all since his first game...

Since his first game? Yea, he's developed some...
From last season to this season? No... not really.

Whether we gave him the contract or not, likely wouldn't have impacted on his development at all. There are myriad of reasons impacting and those are totally irrelevant to his contract.

Nonsense... unless you believe hard work doesn't impact development.

But I did the legwork here:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...sam-next-summer.2365203/page-8#post-134442733

Here you pretty explicitly say that you think 8x8 is the contract...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/jack-eichel-–-part-3.2180021/page-28#post-135062971

Here I make the prediction of 9,5-10,5, which you happen to question (so despite it being pretty much right there where it ended up being, you disagreed...). I also after that if I had to wager, I would say that 9,5-10,5. And it landed right in the middle... Pretty far from your 8 million...

The irony here is that, when your thinking is based on what he "should" get or what he "earns", is based purely on your own feelings about how things should according to you, you talk about others basing their arguments on "feelings". The fact is, that you simply doesn't seem to understand how things go.

So, about your memory....

Oh... you didn't do the legwork to find the post I was talking about... how surprising.

Here it is:
Jack Eichel – Part 3

If I had to bet money on it, I would assume that the 8 year deal is going to be between 9-10 million in cap hit. Being less than 8,5 I think is not likely, and it being more than 10,5 not likely either. It being less than 9 and more than 10, though, is possible, while I don't think that's the likely range.

So, about your memory....

yea, it's pretty good

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Points/game to prop up a pair of irrelevant ES seasons is a good one.

 

[Kyndig]

Keep banging that drum.

Eichel plays better away from Kane.."but sample size."
Eichel was almost a PPG last year .." but no ES points."
Eichel has great ES points this year ..."but Kane is driving his ES scoring (lol NOT). ..well fine!His PPG is low compared to last year"
Eichel has god awful wingers "crickets....well they're the best wingers on the team!"....yeah cuz that's saying so much when our best winger is a 35 year old Pominville who hasn't put up 20 goals in 4 years.

 

[Jame]

Keep banging that drum.

Eichel plays better away from Kane.."but sample size."
Eichel was almost a PPG last year .." but no ES points."
Eichel has great ES points this year ..."but Kane is driving his ES scoring (lol NOT). ..well fine!His PPG is low compared to last year"
Eichel has god awful wingers "crickets....well they're the best wingers on the team!"....yeah cuz that's saying so much when our best winger is a 35 year old Pominville who hasn't put up 20 goals in 4 years.

10 million dollars worth of excuses

 

[Kyndig]

10 million dollars worth of excuses

Nearly a PPG season as a 20 year old who is always leading the team in points pretty much, he was going to get paid $10million on any team he played for.

Draisaitl was paid 8.5 when he is an obvious product of McDavid..you know one of the best hockey players to play the game. Why the hell would Eichel be offered 8x8? Eichel has been producing regardless of what turd sandwich has been placed with him.

Toews 10.5 despite being worse than Eichel last season even with the fact he had infinitely better wingers.

Not making excuses just trying to use logic, which some people like to throw out the window.

 

[stokes84]

Yes, nobody criticizes Reinhart, ever

Not by the guy leading the anti-Eichel charge in this thread.

 

[Jame]

Nearly a PPG season as a 20 year old who is always leading the team in points pretty much, he was going to get paid $10million on any team he played for.

Draisaitl was paid 8.5 when he is an obvious product of McDavid..you know one of the best hockey players to play the game. Why the hell would Eichel be offered 8x8? Eichel has been producing regardless of what turd sandwich has been placed with him.

Draisaitl was a RFA, Eichel was under contract... it’s kind of a big difference

Toews 10.5 despite being worse than Eichel last season even with the fact he had infinitely better wingers.

Not making excuses just trying to use logic, which some people like to throw out the window.

Lol because poINts?

Toews, 10.5 and some hardware

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Nearly a PPG season as a 20 year old who is always leading the team in points pretty much, he was going to get paid $10million on any team he played for.

Draisaitl was paid 8.5 when he is an obvious product of McDavid..you know one of the best hockey players to play the game. Why the hell would Eichel be offered 8x8? Eichel has been producing regardless of what turd sandwich has been placed with him.

Toews 10.5 despite being worse than Eichel last season even with the fact he had infinitely better wingers.

Not making excuses just trying to use logic, which some people like to throw out the window.

Have we won two Cups? Is Jack Eichel in the ballpark of a Selke?

No?

Then cut it out with the Toews comps.

Eichel isn't close to the things that got him and Kopitar paid, and isn't close to the things that got folks paid in spite of team success either.

 

[debaser66]

A bridge deal was out of the question.
The deal he got was probably a gamble by management.
If he would have performed like many expected
and be a top player in the league by the end of the season
he would have cost more than the deal he got.
Unfortunately the sabres lost that gamble as it seems of now.
Which doesn't mean if he gets his act together and with the cap rising
it could be a good deal in the future.
Nevertheless we could have probably saved a million per year.

 

[stokes84]

The biggest problem with Eichel currently is also his strength: he holds the puck too long. Sometimes that opens up a great pass, but more often than not, it shuts things down. He needs to learn to move the puck quickly and go to open ice. It really reminds me of a high school team where everything flows through the star player. You can't have that at this level.

 

[Kyndig]

Oh I see so Toews on this team and he would've won the cup twice already. Good to know, I thought this was a team sport.

 

[AustonsNostrils]

He's not using his speed enough.

 

[Samsonite23]

Oh I see so Toews on this team and he would've won the cup twice already. Good to know, I thought this was a team sport.

Conn Smythe winner. Selke winner. Best captain in the league.

 

[Kyndig]

Conn Smythe winner. Selke winner. Best captain in the league.

You forgot the most overrated player in the league trophy.

 

[Samsonite23]

You forgot the most overrated player in the league trophy.

Cool.

 

[Kyndig]

Cool.

So you're just going to ignore the fact pretty much a vast majority of people had Toews at the top of pretty much every single overrated player list for the last oh idk 5+ years? Cool. Since we're pointing out trophies I guess playing with the Art Ross winner, Hart winner, Calder trophy (over Toews) , and someone with his own Conn Smythe has nothing at all to do with his success.

It's interesting how these players are suddenly the greatest thing ever when it fits someones narrative. Toews, the greatest captain ever! Kane the best 5on5 player on the team, boosts Eichel's stats like nobodies business!.. strange given how many people hate watching those two play together and want Kane shipped. Reinhart, blessed be his name..the highest IQ player on the team...just look at these super advanced stats to prove it when even corsi fails!

 

[Snippit]

I miss when Eichel could snipe pucks

 

[Jim Bob]

I love how people are comparing Toews' 3rd contract to Eichel's second contract.

Eichel hasn't been able to produce anywhere near McDavid's level since the two were drafted, yet he somehow leveraged McDavid's second contract to get paid more than his production to date would suggest he should get paid.

A guy like MacKinnon's second contract should have been the benchmark for Eichel's second deal and not McDavid's contract.

But, people are holding out hope that Eichel can become a player in McDavid's stratosphere, so they defend the overpayment....

 

[Jame]

So you're just going to ignore the fact pretty much a vast majority of people had Toews at the top of pretty much every single overrated player list for the last oh idk 5+ years? Cool.

What?

Since we're pointing out trophies I guess playing with the Art Ross winner, Hart winner, Calder trophy (over Toews) , and someone with his own Conn Smythe has nothing at all to do with his success.

Reverse that...

 

[Jame]

I love how people are comparing Toews' 3rd contract to Eichel's second contract.

Eichel hasn't been able to produce anywhere near McDavid's level since the two were drafted, yet he somehow leveraged McDavid's second contract to get paid more than his production to date would suggest he should get paid.

A guy like MacKinnon's second contract should have been the benchmark for Eichel's second deal and not McDavid's contract.

But, people are holding out hope that Eichel can become a player in McDavid's stratosphere, so they defend the overpayment....

The psychology of the tank was so damaging to the franchise that almost everyone from the owner down to the fans has convinced themselves of something that never was.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

I love how people are comparing Toews' 3rd contract to Eichel's second contract.

Eichel hasn't been able to produce anywhere near McDavid's level since the two were drafted, yet he somehow leveraged McDavid's second contract to get paid more than his production to date would suggest he should get paid.

A guy like MacKinnon's second contract should have been the benchmark for Eichel's second deal and not McDavid's contract.

But, people are holding out hope that Eichel can become a player in McDavid's stratosphere, so they defend the overpayment....

We have to take cap inflation in consideration. Also Jack was PPG when he signed his contract - not exactly bad return if he can consistently do it throughout the 8 year contract. If in 8 years hes still at PPG production and has been for the most part of the contract then us paying 10 mil then will be an absolute bargain. Im still fine with the contract signed, we just need the team to get better, Jack to be coached to play the game well in todats environment and his contract will never be an issue. Moreover I dont know why evetyone is so concerned about his contract when we are paying 4-6 mil for relative scrubs like Moulson, Gorges, Bigosian, Okposo and even Pomers. If we clear most bad contracts we currently have no one will worry about ehat same makes with the cap ever increasing (successful Vegas and potentially successful Seatle combined with hopefully better TV deals will lift it much higher still).