Speculation: Isles core not being pushed

[bluechipbonzo]

Seems to me the core of Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, and Grabner- as well as new faces like Boyes, McDonald, and Aucoin may be underachieving due to a lack of push coming from Bridgeport. Some of this is on Snow, some of it on Capuano, and some of it is on just plain bad luck with injuries.

Casey Cizikas- The real deal and tops on this list. Turning into the everyday NHL bottom sixer many saw after his body of work in the OHL and the AHL last year. Who should be worried: Frans Nielsen. If Cizikas continues to develop, he could very well find himself as the Islanders third line centre (and where Nielsen truly belongs).

David Ullstrom- Is he being held to a different standard than the big names above? Is that a product of the culture Snow and Capuano are trying to create here- being tough on the rookies- or are mixed messages being sent? How many times have we heard that players can go out, make a mistake, and be put right back out on the ice? Has this changed, or is there a cultural shift based on higher expectations now that the core has matured? Who should be worried: Kyle Okposo, Josh Bailey. Ullstrom has shown flashes of offense like Okposo and Bailey, but brings more speed and size. Probably lands on the third line, but Okposo and Bailey aren't putting up much of a fight.

Nino Neiderreiter- The enigmatic power forward has produced, in spite of not being given a legitimate shot at making the big club. Word is had the reactive comments from his agent not come out, Nino might already be in the NHL. Picking up Keith Aucoin didn't help here, and neither did the emergence of Cizikas and Ullstrom. Look for Nino soon if the core continues to struggle. Good on Snow for not bending to pressure and creating a nice standard here. Who should be worried: Brad Boyes.Well, he should be worried, but as long as he keeps producing, Snow will be happy to wait, and let Neiderreiter continue to gain experience in the AHL.

Kirill Kabanov- the Islanders are still very high on the untapped potential here. NHL size and skating, good offensive awareness, plus hands and plus creativity with the puck. Freak injury this year after limited development due to other injuries and the infamous but now very much in the rear view mirror checkered past...will not push for a job next year now, but could be argued that with his skill set, a full season in the AHL might have at least made that "pushing" a possibility. Who should be worried: 2014 second and third line wingers. After another full season in the AHL, Kabanov should be fully developed and will offer a tantalizing combination of skill and size.

Brock Nelson- another player hurt by injury, both his own and Kabanov's...Isles love Nelson, but opposing teams are adjusting, and the circus around Neidereitter hasn't helped. The big centre may be hitting a bit of a wall here as the grind of the AHL would seem to be wearing him and other rookies down. Who should be worried: 2014 second line wingers, third line centres. Nelson will be in a pitch battle next training camp with Ryan Strome, with both vying for the second line centre job. Both players possibly shifting to wing makes for interesting combinations and possibilities.

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[OlTimeHockey]

Islander developed prospects. Who should be worried: season ticket buyers.

 

[BillD]

You left out Sundstrom and Persson, two very solid prospects that could be in a Brooklyn uniform as soon as moving day.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

None of this makes any sense to me. It's just fans pushing hope from the previous hopefuls onto the newest batch of hopefuls.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Islander developed prospects. Who should be worried: season ticket buyers.

Seems to me there aren't that many season ticket holders anyway...the ones here do care though...heh heh, I thought you might look past who posted this and cheer on some rare Snow bashing (or at least the hint of it...)

But you do raise a good point...development has been an issue in the past, but you also consistently raise spectres around here, and well, the times they are a changin'...

Development is ongoing...development takes times, which you often preach...your logic here is confounding to say the least.

I'm wondering if the "core" would be trying harder if they were skating in Brooklyn.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Seems to me the core of Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, and Grabner- as well as new faces like Boyes, McDonald, and Aucoin may be underachieving due to a lack of push coming from Bridgeport. Some of this is on Snow, some of it on Capuano, and some of it is on just plain bad luck with injuries.

Are they underachieving? Or are they producing around what can be expected of them, and the problem is the fact they're being counted on to be something they're not?

Okposo and Bailey, I suppose I'd agree are underachieving somewhat. Okposo, in particular, should be at the point in his career where he's a legitimate threat from the second line, providing around 20 goals and some physicality, as well as two-way play. Bailey's a big different due to his injury this year, but again, if he was in a third line role (where he should be at the moment), he's not been bad.

But the others? Nielsen and Grabner are on pace for what they've basically produced their entire careers. McDonald and Aucoin are AHLers, so the fact they're even doing anything at the NHL level would suggest they're overachieving, not underachieving, no? And Boyes is currently on pace for 60 points, which given his past handful of seasons, is right about where he should be.

IMO, it has less to do with not having any guys from Bridgeport pushing them, and more to do with the fact they're just being asked to play roles that they're not really suited for.

 

[LedHammer]

Seems to me the core of Okposo, Bailey, Nielsen, and Grabner- as well as new faces like Boyes, McDonald, and Aucoin may be underachieving due to a lack of push coming from Bridgeport. Some of this is on Snow, some of it on Capuano, and some of it is on just plain bad luck with injuries.

While I agree with you on the prospects getting closer and their will be more internal competition next season, you don't need to have prospects pushing NHLers to take them and sit them in the press box for a while. The Islanders shouldn't need a prospect to push Okposo. Okposo is a "pro" and should be motivated on his own. He should be sat down for at least 3-5 games. There shouldn't have to be a kid ready to jump in for the orginization to hold the current players accountable.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Grabner is underachieving? Thats news to me.

Sounds like why everyone not named Tavares should be pushed. Love Tavares, but you will never be happy if thats your standard of being a good player.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Bonzo - how do you completely pass on the obvious problem with Wang?

I do not doubt for a second that Garth would have better depth if Wang let him. Fill in some spots with better than waiver pickups or geriatric patients and the opportunities for the prospects would shrink things down enough to create competition among the slacking kids. We would also have a couple more players who would stick a fork in the kids butts when they get lazy.

I am also surprised you blame injuries. It is hockey bud, injuries are par. Brooklyn is a canard if Wang still won't spend, btw. See my thought above.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Are they underachieving? Or are they producing around what can be expected of them, and the problem is the fact they're being counted on to be something they're not?

Okposo and Bailey, I suppose I'd agree are underachieving somewhat. Okposo, in particular, should be at the point in his career where he's a legitimate threat from the second line, providing around 20 goals and some physicality, as well as two-way play. Bailey's a big different due to his injury this year, but again, if he was in a third line role (where he should be at the moment), he's not been bad.

But the others? Nielsen and Grabner are on pace for what they've basically produced their entire careers. McDonald and Aucoin are AHLers, so the fact they're even doing anything at the NHL level would suggest they're overachieving, not underachieving, no? And Boyes is currently on pace for 60 points, which given his past handful of seasons, is right about where he should be.

IMO, it has less to do with not having any guys from Bridgeport pushing them, and more to do with the fact they're just being asked to play roles that they're not really suited for.

And Okposo always seems to get to that 20 goal level, I suppose I should have qualified things to say "underachieving this season"...

I agree that Bailey and Okposo would be better suited to third line roles, and hopefully that's where players like Strome, Neidereitter, and Nelson ultimately bump them. Injuries and circumstances would seem to have put this dream further out of reach now. Bailey and Okposo both show flashes of second line talent, and may yet end up as productive players there.

Aucoin and MacDonald certainly are AHLers...but the circumstances at bridgeport is exactly why we see them playing for the Islanders...Ullstrom should be a regular, not a regular scratch, and Nino, well, he's still in time-out...

 

[SI90]

IMO there is only 2 core players playing in the NHL right now....Tavares and Hamonic....

Cizikas could be....

NINO, Reinhart, and Strome should be....

Brock Nelson should be as well....

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Grabner is underachieving? Thats news to me.

Sounds like why everyone not named Tavares should be pushed. Love Tavares, but you will never be happy if thats your standard of being a good player.

Isn't he though? His goals haven't all been highlight, and while I'm not about to break them all down, he's missing as many breakaways as ever, and I don't think we're seeing the dominance on the PK we did two years ago (six shorties). This is a case of more than just the numbers - he's bounced around the lines, and still shies away from contact and the corners...in short, his numbers may be decent, but I don't think the Islanders are necessarily happy here.

Shouldn't there be improvement from the 34 goal pace, or was Grabner overachieving two seasons ago?

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Bonzo - how do you completely pass on the obvious problem with Wang?

I do not doubt for a second that Garth would have better depth if Wang let him. Fill in some spots with better than waiver pickups or geriatric patients and the opportunities for the prospects would shrink things down enough to create competition among the slacking kids. We would also have a couple more players who would stick a fork in the kids butts when they get lazy.

I am also surprised you blame injuries. It is hockey bud, injuries are par. Brooklyn is a canard if Wang still won't spend, btw. See my thought above.

Oh I know Snow's hands are tied. I really should have left him out, but the Nino angle had to be addressed.

Also, the filling in by players like Strait, Hickey, Finley, and Aucoin have to be seen as positive...Coiner has slowed- is that because he knows his job is safe? Or is it as Sid suggested- just an AHLer being an AHLer? The defense weren't addressed, but I really like the guys who Snow grabbed for nothing.

Curious who you mean by other options too- Mike Knuble? I can't think of another free agent signed by another NHL team that could have helped us. Then there's the matter of them wanting to sign here.

The problem I see with my original post was that it tried to be too forward looking, while dealing with the issues our team faces today.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

While I agree with you on the prospects getting closer and their will be more internal competition next season, you don't need to have prospects pushing NHLers to take them and sit them in the press box for a while. The Islanders shouldn't need a prospect to push Okposo. Okposo is a "pro" and should be motivated on his own. He should be sat down for at least 3-5 games. There shouldn't have to be a kid ready to jump in for the organization to hold the current players accountable.

Makes sense that Okposo should motivate himself. I don't think I organized my original post enough.

If you know there's no one to call up to take your place, you must agree this can't really help. I say this because Okposo's effort seems to vary...if he was skating harder, you would think this would indicate desperation...either that or he doesn't have the heart we thought he did.

Editing this because as the puck dropped and Okposo was the first man in, I heard a smattering of boos...how apt, haha.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Oh I know Snow's hands are tied. I really should have left him out, but the Nino angle had to be addressed.

Also, the filling in by players like Strait, Hickey, Finley, and Aucoin have to be seen as positive...Coiner has slowed- is that because he knows his job is safe? Or is it as Sid suggested- just an AHLer being an AHLer? The defense weren't addressed, but I really like the guys who Snow grabbed for nothing.

Curious who you mean by other options too- Mike Knuble? I can't think of another free agent signed by another NHL team that could have helped us. Then there's the matter of them wanting to sign here.

The problem I see with my original post was that it tried to be too forward looking, while dealing with the issues our team faces today.

Other options meaning trade. I see Wang as the biggest impediment there due to the contract we would take on.

Regarding the waiver pickups Garth got lucky this year in the number of quality dumps. Other years you might get a Strait or Hickey, certainly not both.

IMO, it is time to make a lesson-trade. Dump Kyle for whatever, but please let it be a garbage team to send a message. Keeping him is pointless if he never turns it around here.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

Other options meaning trade. I see Wang as the biggest impediment there due to the contract we would take on.

Regarding the waiver pickups Garth got lucky this year in the number of quality dumps. Other years you might get a Strait or Hickey, certainly not both.

IMO, it is time to make a lesson-trade. Dump Kyle for whatever, but please let it be a garbage team to send a message. Keeping him is pointless if he never turns it around here.

I agree on the lesson trade, but you also don't just throw an asset away...the pick-ups were smart and Snow deserves credit...also, tough to make a trade without another team being willing...should see a flurry of activity now through the deadline with a month to go...

 

[bluechipbonzo]

IMO there is only 2 core players playing in the NHL right now....Tavares and Hamonic....

Cizikas could be....

NINO, Reinhart, and Strome should be....

Brock Nelson should be as well....

Bailey Nielsen Okposo Grabner part of core as evidenced by Snow comments and contract extensions, though they certainly aren't living up to that moniker...they all got paid like top six forwards but ain't showing it so far this season.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

So Grabner is an underachiever because he cant beat NHL goalies on breakaways 100% of the time? His sh% is around 15%, any higher and hes overachieving and unsustainable. His 7 in 20 is a 28 goal pace. Definately underachieving.

The missed breakaways thing is the lamest strawman. Who cares how many he misses. Hes no Rico Fata. Hes easily the best finishing pure speed guy in the NHL today. Nobody finishes and creates the amount of breakaways he does. Hes not Bure, but underachieving? Stop.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

So Grabner is an underachiever because he cant beat NHL goalies on breakaways 100% of the time? His sh% is around 15%, any higher and hes overachieving and unsustainable. His 7 in 20 is a 28 goal pace. Definately underachieving.

The missed breakaways thing is the lamest strawman. Who cares how many he misses. Hes no Rico Fata. Hes easily the best finishing pure speed guy in the NHL today. Nobody finishes and creates the amount of breakaways he does. Hes not Bure, but underachieving? Stop.

Finishes? Like one in six breakaways or something? That's hardly what i would call a finisher. He creates with his speed, which is great- but it's almost as though he'd be better off without so many breakaways, with what it appears to do to his confidence. Grabner is a terrible finisher.

Now let me repsond to your hyperbole with a little of my own...it would be nice if he would score on 30-40% of his breakaways...he just doesn't have the hands or finish...as evidenced by his penalty shot- can't score with no one on him either...even his rookie year he struggled to finish on breakaways- why hasn't he worked harder on his shot, or developed new moves- like Nielsen with his five-hole shot in shoot-outs?

My argument was his overall game anyway- he's soft, and it;s touch and go for him just to get the puck off the wall and out of the defensive zone...the book on him is pinch pinch pinch for a reason...he also shies away from contact- the league has figured him out...and he hasn't adapted. His speed gets eliminated now, and he struggles to get involved even in the cycle. He plays scared too, which is tough to swallow. Hitting? Bottom ten in the league I am sure.

Now, I still like him as a player for the potential- in spite of himself- but he's got to show more consistency. That's what my OP was about- he's underachieving. Is that because Snow hasn't brought more competition in? Because Capuano is misusing him? Some of this certainly falls on Grabs.

 

[redbull]

Are they underachieving? Or are they producing around what can be expected of them, and the problem is the fact they're being counted on to be something they're not?.

Bingo. Nobody's pushing anything. BP has lost six straight. Poulin looks bad, has regressed. Kabanov has one professional goal. Nino wants out and has been horrid since that announcement.

If we expect Reinhart, Strome, Nelson OT Nino to make the Isles a better team then that's at least 3 years away.

Nobody on the Islanders is underachieving except KO who is streaky, has been his whole career. They simply are not good enough. They never reached the potential fans hoped for, like most prospects. Unfortunately, this was the crucial part of the (non)plan. So we're left with hope, prayer, lottery.

This is a very soft, limited team, that cannot beat anyone unless they play perfect hockey, get great goaltending and the opponents play poorly. With few exceptions.

Boyes and Moukson should be dealt. They symbolize what's wrong with this team. Far too soft, no compete in them and in a game without a PP, they are continual liabilities out there.

 

[Dutch Frost]

I enjoy watching Nazem Kadri and he credits Randy Carlyle for telling him what they expect and how to play the game. Solid coaching has helped this guy flourish when he would be AHL fodder and labeled a bust. They were not to excited with him last season up in Toronto and Carlyle took over. Sadly we do not have solid coaching, we have Garth's friends all on the bench giving different advice. Which is why I am for Capuano being fired but I do not want Weight taking over. We need a seasoned vet coaching this team and guiding them along the way. Look at what Ken Hitchcock has done with that young St.Louis blues line up.

We need leadership behind the bench pounding fundamentals into our "core" and I guarantee you will see better results from Okposo,Bailey and Grabner and the young crop coming up next year. Thompson should be sent back to the AHL. Weight should be the assistant GM and get a new coach like Ruff and let him bring his own men in and watch the team be better for it.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Moulson is JTs sniper. Hes fantastic in the slot and the majority of his blind passes are into the slot.

The Isles have three NHL quality centers. One is a rookie. They have three RH shots and none of them are ideal for the first line. 2nd, 3rd, 4th? Yeah. They need a player who can play with skilled guys but create distractions by attacking the net and drawing the bigger dmen. Okposo should be that guy but hes not good enough to do it against top pairings. Tavares draws top matchups, you have to know how to play high end offense. PAP ran set plays and converted thrm with skill. Boyes has always been a guy who plays best with a playmaker. He understands the ozone, just isnt quick enough to compensate for his lack of boardplay. Hes not soft, he just isnt as good as PAP was at winning board battles.

 

[bluechipbonzo]

I enjoy watching Nazem Kadri and he credits Randy Carlyle for telling him what they expect and how to play the game. Solid coaching has helped this guy flourish when he would be AHL fodder and labeled a bust. They were not to excited with him last season up in Toronto and Carlyle took over. Sadly we do not have solid coaching, we have Garth's friends all on the bench giving different advice. Which is why I am for Capuano being fired but I do not want Weight taking over. We need a seasoned vet coaching this team and guiding them along the way. Look at what Ken Hitchcock has done with that young St.Louis blues line up.

We need leadership behind the bench pounding fundamentals into our "core" and I guarantee you will see better results from Okposo,Bailey and Grabner and the young crop coming up next year. Thompson should be sent back to the AHL. Weight should be the assistant GM and get a new coach like Ruff and let him bring his own men in and watch the team be better for it.

I think you mean Dallas Eakins, not Carlye so much...now that's a guy who will be a head coach this time next year...I agree though, Cap isn't getting what he needs out of this team- he's always preaching how they need all 20 guys going...well, coach, get 'em going...

 

[kasper11]

Bailey Nielsen Okposo Grabner part of core as evidenced by Snow comments and contract extensions, though they certainly aren't living up to that moniker...they all got paid like top six forwards but ain't showing it so far this season.

Bailey makes $1M this year.
Nielsen, Okposo and Grabner all make $3M or under.

Go and look at what top-6 forwards get on the open market. Pretty much starts at $4M. While I have been disappointed with Okposo's effort at times this year, for the most part the problem isn't that these players aren't earning their money. The problem is that we pay guys third line money and expect 2nd line production because we are too cheap to spend top-6 money on anyone.

 

[goal1228]

Bingo. Nobody's pushing anything. BP has lost six straight. Poulin looks bad, has regressed. Kabanov has one professional goal. Nino wants out and has been horrid since that announcement.

If we expect Reinhart, Strome, Nelson OT Nino to make the Isles a better team then that's at least 3 years away.

Nobody on the Islanders is underachieving except KO who is streaky, has been his whole career. They simply are not good enough. They never reached the potential fans hoped for, like most prospects. Unfortunately, this was the crucial part of the (non)plan. So we're left with hope, prayer, lottery.

This is a very soft, limited team, that cannot beat anyone unless they play perfect hockey, get great goaltending and the opponents play poorly. With few exceptions.

Boyes and Moukson should be dealt. They symbolize what's wrong with this team. Far too soft, no compete in them and in a game without a PP, they are continual liabilities out there.

Thats the biggest problem imo. A lot on this board think these kids will come in and make an immediate impact. There's no guarantee that they ever will. I think Snow has done a good job but he has got to try and improve this team via trade or we are looking at a few more years of missing the playoff's.