Is Wayne Gretzky Getting Underrated on This Board?

[Stephen]

Gretzky came into the league at a very unique moment when the offensive side of the game jumped ahead of the defensive and goaltending in the early 80s, and feasted statistically. By the second half, the defensive side of things had all but caught up. The greats are going to be the greats in any era, but he would be a very different player in this era.

 

[LeafFever]

Gretzky had the highest hockey IQ of any player ever. not even close.

 

[Brownies]

Gretzky era had years they average goals in the league was 8

Now it's under 6

That's a 25-30% adjustment

Adjust his 183 points to today average and it's 140

Better defensive systems, skating, stronger players and salary cap removing lineups like Edmonton and LA had he's probably a 100 point guy

Patrick Kane scored just over 100 points. If there's one thing I'm sure it's that Greyzky would outscore Patrick Kane... and I like both.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I'm sure there are many young'ns on these boards who undervalue anything that came before 2009.

But I have watched hockey almost obsessively since 1994.
There have been no players as good as Gretzky or Lemieux since they retired.
They have no contemporary peers.

Gretzky, as others have mentioned, put up 90+ points on a struggling Rangers team at the tail end of his career.
While Lemieux came back from 3 years off to dominate the field and gift Jagr with an Art Ross that would have otherwise gone to Sakic.

With all of that said, guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid, they are all glitches in the matrix.

They are born and become something better than anything we have ever seen.

And then, once others have seen that it is possible, the overall level improves.

The 4 minute mile was thought to be impossible for hundreds of years.

One guy did it, and then suddenly every elite runner was doing it.


But it was the elite vision that separated Gretzky and Lemieux. I have seen only a handful of passes by Henrik Sedin or Joe Thornton that are similar in magnitude to the genius that those two showed every night.

 

[Asheville]

I'd definitely take him no worse than third center along with McDavid & Crosby

I can't believe the shit that is posted here. What has this place become?

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Are people just too young to understand how great he was? He scored over 700 more points than any other player in the 1980's. So the argument about it being so easy to score in the 80's does not quite work for me.

More assists than any player ever has total points. How can that not impress you?

No player ever has statistically dominated a sport like Gretzky has,

-I think people are too stupid to remember.

-The NHL expanded from 6 teams to 21 teams in the Wayne era, the bottom teams were the worst in league history. 170+ goal differential, LOL, it was NHL team vs high school team back then.

-Montreal and Edmonton were stacked. The New NHL, or, the original 6 plus the additional of the AHL, the 2 bulldozers Monteal and Edmonton crushed everyone with All Star lineups vs peewee league teams.

-Better Question. Wayne in his prime playing for Arizona right now at 21 years old. Does Wayne break 120 at Arizona this year? I say No, he wouldnt break 90 at Arizona right now.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Gretzky came into the league at a very unique moment when the offensive side of the game jumped ahead of the defensive and goaltending in the early 80s, and feasted statistically. By the second half, the defensive side of things had all but caught up. The greats are going to be the greats in any era, but he would be a very different player in this era.

I think It was more Gretzky making the 80s look so high scoring, rather than 80s making him look so good.

Everyone else had the same opportunities, going against the same defenses and same goalies, yet no one(outside of Lemieux) was close to Gretzky.

Yet by the 2nd half, he was still the most productive player of the 90s, all the way until his 2nd to last season.

 

[Thenameless]

post some videos of gretzky's skill matching sid your joking right

You're the one who must be joking. Gretzky was not gifted with the speed of Orr, the power of Howe, or the size of Lemieux. What he had in spades was skill. He could read the play infinitely better than Crosby. He knew where teammates and opposing players were at all times, and more importantly, where they would be in the next several seconds. He could feather tape-to-tape passes way better than Crosby. He had a more accurate shot than Crosby. He wasn't as fast or as strong on his skates as Crosby, but he was more shifty and maneuverable. In terms of skill, it's actually a runaway win for Gretzky.

Crosby has been described by some as the most skillful "grinder" to ever play the game. No one would ever describe Gretzky as a "grinder".

 

[Dustin]

I've said this before and it's kind of confusing but I understand why he gets underated at least by the newer generations. It's hard to draw a line from 80's hockey to today as the games are so fundamentally different.

Also when looking at the record books Gretzky beats you down with his consistency. If its an offensive record there's a really good chance Gretzky holds the record. As such I think it's quite easy to almost skip by Gretzky and look for other players. You seem to forget that he basically rewrote the records book.

On top of that the 2 other players that perhaps may/could have been in the discussion are arguments largely built on what ifs. So in a sense when people say that Lemieux could have beaten his most points in a season record, that somehow diminishes the fact that for 5 seasons he averaged over 200 points a season in their minds.

He is by far the biggest anamoly I have witnessed in professional sports over my life.

 

[GreatGonzo]

-I think people are too stupid to remember.

-The NHL expanded from 6 teams to 21 teams in the Wayne era, the bottom teams were the worst in league history. 170+ goal differential, LOL, it was NHL team vs high school team back then.

-Montreal and Edmonton were stacked. The New NHL, or, the original 6 plus the additional of the AHL, the 2 bulldozers Monteal and Edmonton crushed everyone with All Star lineups vs peewee league teams.

-Better Question. Wayne in his prime playing for Arizona right now at 21 years old. Does Wayne break 120 at Arizona this year? I say No, he wouldnt break 90 at Arizona right now.

Those are all very bizarre points.

-Gretzky still maintained his production even as the NHL grew and expanded. He simply made it look that easy.

-Yes they were, but those Kings Teams weren’t and Gretzky still dominated.

-he wouldn’t break 90? Why? How?

 

[PenguinSpeed]

I think It was more Gretzky making the 80s look so high scoring, rather than 80s making him look so good.

Everyone else had the same opportunities, going against the same defenses and same goalies, yet no one(outside of Lemieux) was close to Gretzky.

Yet by the 2nd half, he was still the most productive player of the 90s, all the way until his 2nd to last season.

-False, False, False. After 1991 Wayne broke 121 points a total of 1 time in the 90's. As time went on his stats dropped faster then Titanic. And he always had Elite talent around him. Stick him on Arizona or Buffalo in his prime this year and his stats or fall even further off the cliff.

 

[Newsworthy]

Whenever someone tells me that Wayne Gretzky was simply a product of a high scoring environment I hit em with one of these.

Check it out.. My favorite example:

86-87 Scoring leaders:
1. Wayne Gretzky-EDM 183
2. Jari Kurri-EDM 108
3. Mario Lemieux-PIT 107
Mark Messier-EDM 107
5. Doug Gilmour-STL 105


But.. But..anyone could dominate that era

Then why did Gretzky score 75pts+ more than #2 and the rest of the field scored at today's scoring rate?

To be fair Mario only played in 63 games that year and it was only his third season in the NHL.
Yes Wayne is the most dominate player in the NHL ever but Super Mario isn't no slouch.
Wayne unlike Mario escaped the injury & health related bug.

 

[Sojourn]

Those are all very bizarre points.

-Gretzky still maintained his production even as the NHL grew and expanded. He simply made it look that easy.

-Yes they were, but those Kings Teams weren’t and Gretzky still dominated.

-he wouldn’t break 90? Why? How?

Reasons...

 

[Thenameless]

-I think people are too stupid to remember.

-Better Question. Wayne in his prime playing for Arizona right now at 21 years old. Does Wayne break 120 at Arizona this year? I say No, he wouldnt break 90 at Arizona right now.

You think a guy that went over 200 four times couldn't crack 90 now, even in Arizona? I agree, some people are too stupid to remember.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Reasons...

-Wayne still had players like Luc Robitaille and Rob Blake in LA, 2 more Hall of Famers, a borderline All Star team that couldnt win the whole thing. Wayne played with Hall of Fame players his whole career.

-Best player in the 90's my ass. If Lemieux didnt have the cancer and the spinal disc, he would of blown Wayne's doors off in the 90's.

 

[Sojourn]

-False, False, False. After 1991 Wayne broke 121 points a total of 1 time in the 90's. As time went on his stats dropped faster then Titanic. And he always had Elite talent around him. Stick him on Arizona or Buffalo in his prime this year and his stats or fall even further off the cliff.

He put up 97 points in 82 games in the middle of the DPE.

And he followed it up with a 90 point season right after that, in his second to last season in the NHL.

Your hyperbole is way over the top.

 

[Sojourn]

-Wayne still had players like Luc Robitaille and Rob Blake in LA, 2 more Hall of Famers, a borderline All Star team that couldnt win the whole thing. Wayne played with Hall of Fame players his whole career.

-Best player in the 90's my ass. If Lemieux didnt have the cancer and the spinal disc, he would of blown Wayne's doors off in the 90's.

And now more hyperbole.

Is Gretzky no longer allowed to play with good players? That seems to be the point you’re leading to. He played with good players, so it doesn’t count.

 

[Dustin]

To be fair Mario only played in 63 games that year and it was only his third season in the NHL.
Yes Wayne is the most dominate player in the NHL ever but Super Mario isn't no slouch.
Wayne unlike Mario escaped the injury & health related bug.

Wayne had his injuries too but certainly nothing like Lemieux but either way the biggest difference statistically between the 2 players is that Gretzky hit the league running while Lemieux started like a slow burn. Gretzky was way ahead of the curve on fitness and diet as well and it's a known issue of Lemieux's early years in that he was not that great in regards to taking care of himself.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

You think a guy that went over 200 four times couldn't crack 90 now, even in Arizona? I agree, some people are too stupid to remember.

-Nope. Not when he doesnt have all an All Star team all around him. You see Mcdavid struggling to reach full potential? The Oilers have had the #1 pick so many times Ive lost count. Put anyone on Arizona or Buffalo? Tank mode numbers.

 

[DrJustice]

Gretzky couldn't do what Barzal is doing this season

Barzal the GOAT

/s

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Wayne had his injuries too but certainly nothing like Lemieux but either way the biggest difference statistically between the 2 players is that Gretzky hit the league running while Lemieux started like a slow burn. Gretzky was way ahead of the curve on fitness and diet as well and it's a known issue of Lemieux's early years in that he was not that great in regards to taking care of himself.

-Wayne never went to a crap team.

 

[Sojourn]

-Nope. Not when he doesnt have all an All Star team all around him. You see Mcdavid struggling to reach full potential? The Oilers have had the #1 pick so many times Ive lost count. Put anyone on Arizona or Buffalo? Tank mode numbers.

McDavid is the worst argument you could be making. He’s on pace for 98 points. That’s not struggling to reach anything, unless it’s the playoffs.

You have just proven that an amazing talent can excel on a poor team. Congratulations.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

And now more hyperbole.

Is Gretzky no longer allowed to play with good players? That seems to be the point you’re leading to. He played with good players, so it doesn’t count.

-Takes away from his greatness. Like Tom Brady taking a paycut because his superomdel wife makes more money then him. And the Pats stack players and cheat. Put any great player on a scrub team and see how they do. The Penguins were a scrub team pre-Mario. The Penguins were a scrub team Pre-Crosby. If Crosby wins 2 more titles and 2 more Conn's with the injuries, he will be debated as greatest ever.

 

[Thenameless]

-Nope. Not when he doesnt have all an All Star team all around him. You see Mcdavid struggling to reach full potential? The Oilers have had the #1 pick so many times Ive lost count. Put anyone on Arizona or Buffalo? Tank mode numbers.

I'm not sure if you're a really good troll, or just need to do a bit of homework on some hockey history, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Here, have a look at this, there are no All-Stars around him on this team:

Edmonton Oilers 1979-80 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

 

[PenguinSpeed]

McDavid is the worst argument you could be making. He’s on pace for 98 points. That’s not struggling to reach anything, unless it’s the playoffs.

You have just proven that an amazing talent can excel on a poor team. Congratulations.

-How can anyone be poor with 5 #1 picks in a 10 year period or whatever it is? LOL at Edmonton.