Is this shady or normal for hockey parents?

[Golden_Jet]

Sounds amusing. Couldn't find it streaming anywhere - not even on CBC Gem.

That’s a shame,
one guy made an extension to his house, with a long hallway, so the new room was in the next township, and his son was now eligible to play on that team.
Had some Ex NHL player cameos.

 

[BadgerBruce]

That’s a shame,
one guy made an extension to his house, with a long hallway, so the new room was in the next township, and his son was now eligible to play on that team.
Had some Ex NHL player cameos.

The show was hilarious — I think I ended up buying the series on DVD years ago. I still remember the guy building the Longhouse so his home would occupy two residency-restricted minor hockey zones and his boy could play for the Panthers.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. While I’m hardly defending the families who pulled their kids from Team A, we should remember that many minor hockey jurisdictions setup tryouts to make it extremely difficult for kids to have any choice. When I coached AAA in Ontario, lots of families would ask for a release immediately following the first tryout skate. I wanted to give releases to anyone who wanted them, but the association wouldn’t do it until the Wednesday of the second week of tryouts, which meant I couldn’t cut anyone until then and most kids would not have enough time to go to another AAA org’s tryouts. The whole system was whacked and designed to hold everyone prisoner rather than letting them play for a competing org.

Frankly, I was extremely lucky with my own boys (all adults now). Two were good enough to play pretty much anywhere they wanted and were often recruited in November for the following season, which is nuts. The third didn’t give a damn where he played provided it didn’t interfere with basketball, which was and remains his first love.

I don’t miss any of it. Not as a coach (note: I coached for 34 years as a non-parent and never had one of my own kids) and not as a parent.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The show was hilarious — I think I ended up buying the series on DVD years ago. I still remember the guy building the Longhouse so his home would occupy two residency-restricted minor hockey zones and his boy could play for the Panthers.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. While I’m hardly defending the families who pulled their kids from Team A, we should remember that many minor hockey jurisdictions setup tryouts to make it extremely difficult for kids to have any choice. When I coached AAA in Ontario, lots of families would ask for a release immediately following the first tryout skate. I wanted to give releases to anyone who wanted them, but the association wouldn’t do it until the Wednesday of the second week of tryouts, which meant I couldn’t cut anyone until then and most kids would not have enough time to go to another AAA org’s tryouts. The whole system was whacked and designed to hold everyone prisoner rather than letting them play for a competing org.

Frankly, I was extremely lucky with my own boys (all adults now). Two were good enough to play pretty much anywhere they wanted and were often recruited in November for the following season, which is nuts. The third didn’t give a damn where he played provided it didn’t interfere with basketball, which was and remains his first love.

I don’t miss any of it. Not as a coach (note: I coached for 34 years as a non-parent and never had one of my own kids) and not as a parent.

There is a part of this story I didn’t detail because I didn’t want to write a big wall of text, but it will clarify exactly why everyone is so upset I feel.

When my daughter made Team A last spring (2023), several of her old teammates she had played squirt and first year Pee Wee with made the team (5 other kids).

Her coach from those teams, let’s call him.. Tim, also had his son tryout for Team A.

Tim’s son didn’t make it and he was pissed off, because he knew the owners of Team A and thought his son had an “in” because of it.

My wife and his wife are friends so that’s how I know all this.

Anyway, Tim’s kid tried out for Team B and his son made it (2023).

This season Tim was basically out for revenge and started emailing all our kids back in February trying to poach his old players for Team B.

He kept leaning on all of us with a bunch of BS about how wonderful Team B was, but we already know people who left that org and it was mostly lies.

Basically his grift was that Team B would be a AAA team this coming season, which as we found out through our other sources, was horse shit.

Us and two other kids’ parents called out Tim and told him he was being shady.

The three kids who left were “guaranteed spots” on team B by Tim if they left Team A.

My wife knows the moms of the kids who left well, and they all basically hinted Team A was just a backup in case Tim’s promises fell through with Team B.

So they knew all along they wanted to leave and did Team A dirty by tying up those roster spots when they knew full well they were leaving.

 

[CuuuJooo]

That’s a shame,
one guy made an extension to his house, with a long hallway, so the new room was in the next township, and his son was now eligible to play on that team.
Had some Ex NHL player cameos.

Love that show. I teach a college hockey course and use clips from it in my unit on minor hockey.

 

[Yukon Joe]

The show was hilarious — I think I ended up buying the series on DVD years ago. I still remember the guy building the Longhouse so his home would occupy two residency-restricted minor hockey zones and his boy could play for the Panthers.

Anyway, back to the thread topic. While I’m hardly defending the families who pulled their kids from Team A, we should remember that many minor hockey jurisdictions setup tryouts to make it extremely difficult for kids to have any choice. When I coached AAA in Ontario, lots of families would ask for a release immediately following the first tryout skate. I wanted to give releases to anyone who wanted them, but the association wouldn’t do it until the Wednesday of the second week of tryouts, which meant I couldn’t cut anyone until then and most kids would not have enough time to go to another AAA org’s tryouts. The whole system was whacked and designed to hold everyone prisoner rather than letting them play for a competing org.

Frankly, I was extremely lucky with my own boys (all adults now). Two were good enough to play pretty much anywhere they wanted and were often recruited in November for the following season, which is nuts. The third didn’t give a damn where he played provided it didn’t interfere with basketball, which was and remains his first love.

I don’t miss any of it. Not as a coach (note: I coached for 34 years as a non-parent and never had one of my own kids) and not as a parent.

So I know another family - their kid has played with my kid for years and years, although not the last few. The dad is super involved in both coaching and within the federation as a director.

Anyways, 2-3 years ago they moved. Now as the crow flies it wasn't very far at all - but of course they crossed boundaries into another federation. So they did allow their older kid to continue playing in the old federation - after all that's where he's grown up and he knows everybody. But his younger brother? Has to play with the new federation. And we are in no way talking about elite hockey here - it's just now the family has to deal with two different hockey organizations.

Or another kid - now we're talking club hockey. This kid was cut from his club, got his release, and did make it onto another team (that club was weak and wound up picking up several transfers). Anyways he had a good season. So this coming year he wants to stay and try out with the new club, but it's not at all clear to me that they'll let him. Which seems kind of crazy to me - why would clubs ever want to pick up a kid released if the parent club is just going to claim them back again in a year?


I'm a little surprised you don't miss it though. I'm already hitting the point where I might have coached my last year - if my middle kid makes AA in the fall then I'm almost certainly done. And I think I'll miss it a lot.

 

[Slats432]

So I know another family - their kid has played with my kid for years and years, although not the last few. The dad is super involved in both coaching and within the federation as a director.

Anyways, 2-3 years ago they moved. Now as the crow flies it wasn't very far at all - but of course they crossed boundaries into another federation. So they did allow their older kid to continue playing in the old federation - after all that's where he's grown up and he knows everybody. But his younger brother? Has to play with the new federation. And we are in no way talking about elite hockey here - it's just now the family has to deal with two different hockey organizations.

Or another kid - now we're talking club hockey. This kid was cut from his club, got his release, and did make it onto another team (that club was weak and wound up picking up several transfers). Anyways he had a good season. So this coming year he wants to stay and try out with the new club, but it's not at all clear to me that they'll let him. Which seems kind of crazy to me - why would clubs ever want to pick up a kid released if the parent club is just going to claim them back again in a year?


I'm a little surprised you don't miss it though. I'm already hitting the point where I might have coached my last year - if my middle kid makes AA in the fall then I'm almost certainly done. And I think I'll miss it a lot.

It used to be fairly hard and fast that even if a player was released and picked up by a new club they would have to register with the old club without knowing if they could get released.

I have heard that clubs are pretty lenient now with releases with that advent of academy hockey. Here is the process from last year.

Player Movement Application | 2023-24 Season

All Players are expected to play for their Resident Club, District, or Operating Area (as per Hockey Canada, Hockey Alberta and Hockey Edmonton Bylaws, Regulations and Directives). In keeping with a player-first focus, we recognize, however, that there may be a unique set of extenuating...

docs.google.com

 

[shakes the clown]

It's both shady and common.

The kids who get hurt are the ones who didn't make the first team. Do those kids get called back after some kids who made the team decide to go somewhere else? I'm sure those kids who were cut have already moved on to play for a different team. Do they now quit that team and go back to the first team?

It really starts a domino effect of shitty hockey parenting.

 

[Outl4w]

Watch the mockumentary called the Tournament, to see how parents are with their kids. That was entertaining. Ran for 2 seasons.

The Tournament (TV series) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

great show

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

My son started playing hockey 2 years ago and was a late bloomer. He was obviously behind, but loved the game and worked hard in the off season on rollerblades. Also a lot of natural athletic ability and hand eye coordination.

When he improved like crazy, I was naive enough to think that it’d be as simple as “people will notice”. But parent politics turned out to be a crazy part of the game I wasn’t expecting.

Didn’t make a team despite a great tryout (D man). Made the reserve roster for that team. Then he absolutely lit up the level below and started playing games for said team. Immediately it became clear that he was one of the better, if not best, D man game in and game out whenever he filled in. Responsible in his zone and able to carry or distribute the puck at a high level.

Felt like the team was gatekept by parents of incumbents. Then I actually heard parents complaining about how my son played. Sounded a lot like insecurity more than how it actually was. Seemed like parents were worried he would take their kid’s spot next year or something. Then we had parents of kids that didn’t make the team (whose kids were not that talented) trying to use my son as an example of why their kid should’ve made the team. That the process was biased. They wanted me to lodge a complaint. It was nuts. My son was just happy to play the game he loved whenever he got the chance.

Anyway crazy eye opener about how nutty parents can get. I really dig my son’s love of hockey and just want him to have life long good memories, just like the ones I have from when I played.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

My son started playing hockey 2 years ago and was a late bloomer. He was obviously behind, but loved the game and worked hard in the off season on rollerblades. Also a lot of natural athletic ability and hand eye coordination.

When he improved like crazy, I was naive enough to think that it’d be as simple as “people will notice”. But parent politics turned out to be a crazy part of the game I wasn’t expecting.

Didn’t make a team despite a great tryout (D man). Made the reserve roster for that team. Then he absolutely lit up the level below and started playing games for said team. Immediately it became clear that he was one of the better, if not best, D man game in and game out whenever he filled in. Responsible in his zone and able to carry or distribute the puck at a high level.

Felt like the team was gatekept by parents of incumbents. Then I actually heard parents complaining about how my son played. Sounded a lot like insecurity more than how it actually was. Seemed like parents were worried he would take their kid’s spot next year or something. Then we had parents of kids that didn’t make the team (whose kids were not that talented) trying to use my son as an example of why their kid should’ve made the team. That the process was biased. They wanted me to lodge a complaint. It was nuts. My son was just happy to play the game he loved whenever he got the chance.

Anyway crazy eye opener about how nutty parents can get. I really dig my son’s love of hockey and just want him to have life long good memories, just like the ones I have from when I played.

I hate hockey politics so much I refused to teach my daughter how to skate because I didn’t want to be involved with it ever again after playing/coaching.

My wife wore me down and I starting teaching her when she was 4.

She stayed with the same org all the way up until the spring of 2023 when we had enough of the favoritism and she asked us if she could go to another org.

She made a AA team (Team A in this thread) and also her middle school team last spring.

Several AA kids from her old org were on the middle school team and rode her all year about being a traitor for leaving the old org.

This source of this stupidity was obviously the parents of those kids feeding them all this garbage.

Which was obviously total BS as we did everything above level and she made a AA on her own merit, no politics or favoritism.

Then karma bitch smacked these kids and their parents hard this spring.

The org picked a coach from the major single A team to coach the AA team these kids were on.

He put six of his single A kids on the AA team and cut all the kids who were riding my daughter except one.

One of the kids this new coach brought up with him was the kid I mentioned earlier who cried/quit in the Christmas tournament.

The parents of the kids who got cut, the same ones feeding their kids BS about my daughter leaving, were hysterical and screamed how unfair it was… my wife and I couldn’t help but laugh at the irony.

The one kid who made the AA team was so upset his buddies didn’t make it, he refused to commit and actually reached out to Team A and joined my daughter’s org.

Hockey justice was served.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So right now it's been hockey academy try-outs. This is not something our family has participated in (the cost is extreme) but we know several families that are, and are hearing stories.

Stories that teams were basically already pre-set, but they still let all kinds of kids pay $200 in order to try out. Stories of a kid who got a spot only because they wanted the older brother badly. Stories of kids being promised spots right at the beginning.

Now this isn't an example of what @Mr Jiggyfly specifically mentioned - I'm assuming any kid that makes a hockey academy in April is going to take it (and will have to pay hefty fees) long before regular tryouts start in August.

So like I said - saying one thing and intending to do another is by any possible definition "shady", but I guess I understand how some parents justify it with thinking "if teams are going to be dishonest then why shouldn't we".

Although on the other hand - this is all second and third hand info, so maybe we're just hearing a lot of sour grapes.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Never a fan of teams that are pre-selected still taking on the tryout fee for kids they know won't even get a second look, but I guess presumably the next Mario Lemieux could step on the ice and change everything.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Never a fan of teams that are pre-selected still taking on the tryout fee for kids they know won't even get a second look, but I guess presumably the next Mario Lemieux could step on the ice and change everything.

I guess the argument can be is that nobody has actually been guaranteed a spot, but rather the coaches just have a strong indication of who they think they might want on the team.

We're going to go through this in August ourselves for AAA tryouts. I have no doubt a whole bunch of kids will show up who have never played for the club before. But there will also be a bunch of returning players who played AA the year before, and I have to think they'll have serious leg-up in the tryouts. NOT that their spot is guaranteed, but more that the tie will probably go to the returning kid (or in one or two kids - the tie would go against them due to past behaviour).

It's tough on the kids though. What if a kid just moved into the jurisdiction, played at a high level elsewhere, but is a complete unknown to the coaches.

 

[Slats432]

I guess the argument can be is that nobody has actually been guaranteed a spot, but rather the coaches just have a strong indication of who they think they might want on the team.

We're going to go through this in August ourselves for AAA tryouts. I have no doubt a whole bunch of kids will show up who have never played for the club before. But there will also be a bunch of returning players who played AA the year before, and I have to think they'll have serious leg-up in the tryouts. NOT that their spot is guaranteed, but more that the tie will probably go to the returning kid (or in one or two kids - the tie would go against them due to past behaviour).

It's tough on the kids though. What if a kid just moved into the jurisdiction, played at a high level elsewhere, but is a complete unknown to the coaches.

Club hockey in Edmonton has boundries. There is a rarity that a player moves from out of the city/draw zone into the draw zone. (Like my family when we moved from the South to West and had to change from SSAC to CAC).

The only "bunch of kids" that tryout that weren't with the club the previous season are kids that played Federation hockey. It is also rare that a player released from the club the previous year comes from Federation to make AAA. In fact I have never heard of it ever happening.

In situations where there is a tryout group, and I think I explained this in another thread, you have 50 kids tryout. You have a good idea of who the top 10 kids will be because if John was the top scorer as a 2010 in AA, when he tries out for AAA this year, he isn't guaranteed a spot, but there is certainly some dark pencil of him on the team. I have seen lots of situations where returning AAA players get release because they come back feeling entitled.

And the kid that played a high level in another club, moving to the new zone? Coaches aren't stupid. If he was a top player at his other club, they feel fortunate that they would have a good player coming out for them. (Which is exactly what happened to my kid when moving from SSAC to CAC) They don't look at him any differently than the players that came from within the club. If there is no background, say the kid moves from Winnipeg to Edmonton, then it is all on merit.

Here is a hint. 90% of all the decision making is based on what happens on the ice. You want to make the team, then play well.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So right now it's been hockey academy try-outs. This is not something our family has participated in (the cost is extreme) but we know several families that are, and are hearing stories.

Stories that teams were basically already pre-set, but they still let all kinds of kids pay $200 in order to try out. Stories of a kid who got a spot only because they wanted the older brother badly. Stories of kids being promised spots right at the beginning.

Now this isn't an example of what @Mr Jiggyfly specifically mentioned - I'm assuming any kid that makes a hockey academy in April is going to take it (and will have to pay hefty fees) long before regular tryouts start in August.

So like I said - saying one thing and intending to do another is by any possible definition "shady", but I guess I understand how some parents justify it with thinking "if teams are going to be dishonest then why shouldn't we".

Although on the other hand - this is all second and third hand info, so maybe we're just hearing a lot of sour grapes.

I’ve heard of a AAA team in our area that had secret tryouts and had almost their entire team made, then held tryouts for only a couple spots

Charged dozens of parents $200 tryout fees and were not upfront about the situation.

So ya scummy behavior goes on both ends.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

It's unethical. People can try to rationalize and justify it but deep down, everyone doing it knows it's not cool.

We all do crummy things. We're human. This is one example.

 

[Yukon Joe]

In situations where there is a tryout group, and I think I explained this in another thread, you have 50 kids tryout. You have a good idea of who the top 10 kids will be because if John was the top scorer as a 2010 in AA, when he tries out for AAA this year, he isn't guaranteed a spot, but there is certainly some dark pencil of him on the team. I have seen lots of situations where returning AAA players get release because they come back feeling entitled.

<snip>

Here is a hint. 90% of all the decision making is based on what happens on the ice. You want to make the team, then play well.

And that's about how I see it. Nobody is guaranteed a spot. Kids who get out there and are lackluster can and will get cut, no matter their past history. I know one parent who was moaning that my kid was a "lock" because he has a past history with next year's coach, when I'd be disappointed in that coach if that was the approach he took. But "dark pencil" or "90% of all decision making" also rings true - you can't completely ignore the human element.

One of my kid's coaches once told him that in tryouts "you have to make it so they can't say no" which is the only message I've tried to pass on to him.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So this is just a random minor hockey post - didn't feel like making a new thread for it.

We signed my middle kid up for a spring 3 on 3 league. Fairly low key. Anyways this kid plays as as responsible D-man. I don't think he scored a single goal all winter.

Anyways, 3 on 3 is... different. There's not much coaching, which I don't like. Kids are all taking ridiculously long shifts because nobody is telling them to get off (plus if everyone else is they need to in order to get any meaningful ice time). Lots of room for both passes and skating - it is rough to be a 3 on 3 goalie.

Anyways for some reason my kid is suddenly GOING OFF out there, scoring over half his team's total goals. It's just crazy to watch. He's low-key about it, but you can tell he's enjoying suddenly being a big scorer. Even last night where his team was in total getting shelled, he still scored one of their 2 goals - and even better he was still backchecking hard every shift.

I don't think it means anything long-term, but it's fun to watch.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So this is just a random minor hockey post - didn't feel like making a new thread for it.

We signed my middle kid up for a spring 3 on 3 league. Fairly low key. Anyways this kid plays as as responsible D-man. I don't think he scored a single goal all winter.

Anyways, 3 on 3 is... different. There's not much coaching, which I don't like. Kids are all taking ridiculously long shifts because nobody is telling them to get off (plus if everyone else is they need to in order to get any meaningful ice time). Lots of room for both passes and skating - it is rough to be a 3 on 3 goalie.

Anyways for some reason my kid is suddenly GOING OFF out there, scoring over half his team's total goals. It's just crazy to watch. He's low-key about it, but you can tell he's enjoying suddenly being a big scorer. Even last night where his team was in total getting shelled, he still scored one of their 2 goals - and even better he was still backchecking hard every shift.

I don't think it means anything long-term, but it's fun to watch.

My daughter plays 3-3 summer league and it’s just straight up firewagon hockey - it’s fun as hell to watch.

They have a buzzer that goes off every minute and teams have to switch lines - this way the little wannabe superstars don’t take 5 minute shifts.

 

[Slats432]

So this is just a random minor hockey post - didn't feel like making a new thread for it.

We signed my middle kid up for a spring 3 on 3 league. Fairly low key. Anyways this kid plays as as responsible D-man. I don't think he scored a single goal all winter.

Anyways, 3 on 3 is... different. There's not much coaching, which I don't like. Kids are all taking ridiculously long shifts because nobody is telling them to get off (plus if everyone else is they need to in order to get any meaningful ice time). Lots of room for both passes and skating - it is rough to be a 3 on 3 goalie.

Anyways for some reason my kid is suddenly GOING OFF out there, scoring over half his team's total goals. It's just crazy to watch. He's low-key about it, but you can tell he's enjoying suddenly being a big scorer. Even last night where his team was in total getting shelled, he still scored one of their 2 goals - and even better he was still backchecking hard every shift.

I don't think it means anything long-term, but it's fun to watch.

It doesn't mean anything. 3 on 3 is about two things, skill and skating. There isn't supposed to be coaching so players can just go out and have fun. The long shift guys/girls do put a damper on the fun though. When my kid played in the 3 on 3 Superleague, there were always annoying kids, even at the AAA level that would take way too long. There was even a kid one year that wouldn't pass and try to do it himself every shift.

One of his teammates got him in line though. He went offside every time his teammate had the puck so he had to pass.

 

[WarriorofTime]

In situations where there is a tryout group, and I think I explained this in another thread, you have 50 kids tryout. You have a good idea of who the top 10 kids will be because if John was the top scorer as a 2010 in AA, when he tries out for AAA this year, he isn't guaranteed a spot, but there is certainly some dark pencil of him on the team. I have seen lots of situations where returning AAA players get release because they come back feeling entitled.

And the kid that played a high level in another club, moving to the new zone? Coaches aren't stupid. If he was a top player at his other club, they feel fortunate that they would have a good player coming out for them. (Which is exactly what happened to my kid when moving from SSAC to CAC) They don't look at him any differently than the players that came from within the club. If there is no background, say the kid moves from Winnipeg to Edmonton, then it is all on merit.

This is where Feedback Loop and "January effect" really come into play. John was the best kid on the 2010 team but had a January birthdate and was almost a year biologically older than the December kid, so he had a big advantage physically that year. So now John is in dark pencil and makes the AAA team and December kid is cut. Parents pour a lot of money into John's skating and skills, he keeps progressing and makes Junior Hockey. December kid drops down, maybe plays another year and then quits hockey.

 

[tyhee]

It's definitely normal. Hell it's normal for a lot of non-sport situations as well. Out of college I was competing for a spot in a symphony in the Chicago area and ran into a guy I know pretty well that plays the same instrument that I do. He ended up being the one that got selected for the position in Chicago. Two weeks later I run into him again auditioning for a spot in DC which kindof surprised me since he already had the Chicago offer.

If the Chicago offer was for a casual position or one that could be terminated on short notice, or if he hadn't accepted it, I wouldn't see anything wrong with auditioning for a position elsewhere. As for the original question, I'd want more details (wording and circumstances of the commitment, for instance,) before expressing an opinion whether it is shady or merely distasteful.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

If the Chicago offer was for a casual position or one that could be terminated on short notice, or if he hadn't accepted it, I wouldn't see anything wrong with auditioning for a position elsewhere. As for the original question, I'd want more details (wording and circumstances of the commitment, for instance,) before expressing an opinion whether it is shady or merely distasteful.

It’s basically a player agreement we have to sign that confirms our child is committing to their org for the 2024-25 season and that we also agree to pay the fees laid out in the contract (team fees, tournament fees, team fund, etc), that our child agrees to follow the rules in the players handbook, etc.

 

[Slats432]

This is where Feedback Loop and "January effect" really come into play. John was the best kid on the 2010 team but had a January birthdate and was almost a year biologically older than the December kid, so he had a big advantage physically that year. So now John is in dark pencil and makes the AAA team and December kid is cut. Parents pour a lot of money into John's skating and skills, he keeps progressing and makes Junior Hockey. December kid drops down, maybe plays another year and then quits hockey.

I think that the Outlier theory has an effect but it isn't the only effect. That problem is created by outside influences that say you need to be at this level or that level by a certain age to "make it". If you quit hockey because you don't make AAA then it is your commitment that is more of an issue than the level you play at. People believe that development is a straight line. It is not. If you are good enough, you play. If you aren't, you don't. Lots of factors but I believe that the cream always rises to the top.

 

[WarriorofTime]

If you quit hockey because you don't make AAA then it is your commitment that is more of an issue

Unfortunately though, "commitment" goes beyond "you really like hockey and are willing to work hard to get better and be the best player you can be wherever that ends up" when there's a significant $$$ component at that age.