Is this shady or normal for hockey parents?

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Just a straight up question:

After tryouts for team A your kid receives an offer and you commit to them, but secretly tryout for team B weeks later and accept their offer instead… do you consider this normal hockey parent behavior or would you consider this being shady?

Click to read more...

 

[JMCx4]

If your definition of "normal" includes: "It's been done on more than a few occasions in the past," then Yes to normal. Are the actions ethical? Only at the margins of normative ethics, so "shady" could apply but I'd be inclined to use a stronger description.

 

[DaveG]

It's definitely normal. Hell it's normal for a lot of non-sport situations as well. Out of college I was competing for a spot in a symphony in the Chicago area and ran into a guy I know pretty well that plays the same instrument that I do. He ended up being the one that got selected for the position in Chicago. Two weeks later I run into him again auditioning for a spot in DC which kindof surprised me since he already had the Chicago offer.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Two sides of the same coin, where coaches will string a kid along, express lots of interest/enthusiasm for them when in reality they are a backup option if the top options don't come along, and if the situation doesn't come through with the kid they are often screwed because the other teams have filled their spot.

Now are these kids getting "revenge" for the other kids? Probably not. In both cases, it's the side that has the leverage providing themselves with options due to the stakes.

I follow college sports. People from my school that are close to he program (boosters, people connected to coaching staff) will sometimes whine that a top recruit target "strung us along, gave every indication they were going to commit, but as it turns out, were just playing the staff for NIL leverage" to indicate that it put the staff into a bind... but I always say, people always want the staff to have "backup plans" incase the top target doesn't come along, and they're "backup plans" for a reason, the staff is likely out there giving impressions to the "backup plans" that they are high priority targets and they are extremely interested, or else the "backup plans" will go commit elsewhere. The people that whine about the earlier situation are likely OK with this because there's an unspoken belief that it's fine with the "backup plans" because they aren't high-end recruits. Essentially, once a player's talent dips below a certain level, they stop becoming human and start becoming cattle because the end justifies the means for trying to make a winning team.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yes it gets done, I know a few kids that have done it. I’d say it’s not uncommon, and not hockey specific either.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I’ve been around the game all my life, so I know this gets done a lot, I’m just trying to get opinions of if people think it’s shady or not.

When my child got into hockey 7 yrs ago, I warned my wife not to get too close to any of the parents because I knew what was coming eventually.

Now the shit hit the fan after tryouts this year and she feels betrayed and angry at several parents.

Our kids have been playing together for 4 years or so on the same team and 3 kids went out and secretly tried out for another team and left, even though they were already committed like the rest of our kids.

My wife and a couple other parents feel like they were stabbed in the back because now there are three holes on the roster and most of the best players in the area are already committed to other teams.

I said to my wife I get your anger and agreed these parents should have been upfront about their intentions and never committed.

However many hockey parents are out for their little Johnny and f*** everyone else, and that’s just the mentality they have… and I’m just used to that, so I wasn’t mad.

I so think it’s really shady, but these parents think what they are doing is right and trying to convince them otherwise is a fool’s errand.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Is it shady? Sure it is.

Parents are saying one thing but they don't mean it. That's pretty much the definition of shady.

Is it normal, or understandable, or anything like that? That's slightly more grey. Because yes - coaches might string along a kid only to cut them at the end, all because the team needed "options". You might be afraid to commit to a team in case a better offer comes along, so there is definitely incentive to be "shady".

And yes - I can think of similar shenanigans back when it came to lawyer recruitment coming out of law school - on both sides.

But while I think it might be somewhat more justifiable when it comes to your livelihood, this is still a kids sport, and you're going to be running into the same parents again. Over and over again.

So just a couple of anecdotes... my kid had tried out for a spring team, got cut. I saw a Facebook ad for a different team looking to recruit players. I thought it was kind of late to be looking for players, but what the heck - the tryout fee was reasonable for an hour of ice time. When we get there though - I mean the cost was still reasonable, but it was pretty clear they mostly had their team and were just trying to pad out the ice time. My kid didn't get a sniff.

Another time though - we tried out for an HSL team (I have a whole thread about HSL), and were offered a spot. We were upfront though - we wanted to continue to try out for our Hockey Canada affiliated minor hockey AA team, and declined the offer. The HSL team was fine with that - they kept reaching out to see if we were interested, I think we still went out for a skate or two. But when my kid made the AA team I certainly felt much better that we hadn't been stringing the HSL team along.

So look - I'm not going to tell some NHL pro how to conduct their negotiations. Even back down a level I'm not going to tell some high ranking prospect how to navigate the draft, or balancing college versus junior hockey, or whatever.

But it's kids hockey. Almost everyone is playing in beer league in a few years. There's no harm in playing it straight, and actually some benefit to be known as a straight shooter.

 

[JMCx4]

I’ve been around the game all my life, so I know this gets done a lot, I’m just trying to get opinions of if people think it’s shady or not.

When my child got into hockey 7 yrs ago, I warned my wife not to get too close to any of the parents because I knew what was coming eventually.

Now the shit hit the fan after tryouts this year and she feels betrayed and angry at several parents. ...

My wife and a couple other parents feel like they were stabbed in the back because now there are three holes on the roster and most of the best players in the area are already committed to other teams.

I said to my wife I get your anger and agreed these parents should have been upfront about their intentions and never committed.

However many hockey parents are out for their little Johnny and f*** everyone else, and that’s just the mentality they have… and I’m just used to that, so I wasn’t mad.

I so think it’s really shady, but these parents think what they are doing is right and trying to convince them otherwise is a fool’s errand.

If your undelying motivation for starting this thread was to convince your wife you were right, you were on your own fool's errand.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

If your undelying motivation for starting this thread was to convince your wife you were right, you were on your own fool's errand.

My motivation was the polar opposite - to convince myself I’m wrong.

After I discovered the head of the org being really pissed off that he was lied to it was kind of a wake up call I shouldn’t accept this as “hockey parents doing hockey parents stuff” anymore.

Basically I should just call it what it is, people lying and breaking their word, which is scummy in all other aspects of life.

So I am questioning why I’ve allowed myself to become indifferent to this behavior when hockey parents do it, especially when I told my child “your word is your bond and once you commit, you don’t try out for other teams”

But it's kids hockey. Almost everyone is playing in beer league in a few years. There's no harm in playing it straight, and actually some benefit to be known as a straight shooter.

My wife said exactly this.

These parents have told her they think their kids are special players and going to this new org will “develop them much better”.

The other org is simply a AA team selling parents on the idea they are a AAA team (they aren’t, trust me).

This is only high level AA hockey, no matter what silliness you want to be sold on for your kid.

Time to be realistic.

 

[Slats432]

Shady? In any walk of life, business or personal or sports, if you commit to something then back out to do something else it is an integrity issue.

When it comes to hockey parents, I think the 90% are going to do whatever is best for their kid, but a high percentage will do that very thing in an honest up front way. (Choosing academy over club, etc)

My son played for an association in U15. We moved to a different area of the city. We were told that he would be grandfathered back to his association that he played u15. After we moved, we were told, that isn't the way it works. He has to register where he lives.

Someone from the original association (Which we liked) said, just don't tell anyone you moved and we will just register him. We didn't do that.

We registered with the new association and told our son. "You don't do what is right only when it's convenient. You do what's right all the time."

He ended up having a great time at the new association.

 

[WarriorofTime]

My motivation was the polar opposite - to convince myself I’m wrong.

After I discovered the head of the org being really pissed off that he was lied to it was kind of a wake up call I shouldn’t accept this as “hockey parents doing hockey parents stuff” anymore.

Basically I should just call it what it is, people lying and breaking their word, which is scummy in all other aspects of life.

So I am questioning why I’ve allowed myself to become indifferent to this behavior when hockey parents do it, especially when I told my child “your word is your bond and once you commit, you don’t try out for other teams”



My wife said exactly this.

These parents have told her they think their kids are special players and going to this new org will “develop them much better”.

The other org is simply a AA team selling parents on the idea they are a AAA team (they aren’t, trust me).

This is only high level AA hockey, no matter what silliness you want to be sold on for your kid.

Time to be realistic.

Not sure what you mean by "shouldn't accept"?

Can you be upset about it? Sure, but it's not like you will go around and follow these kids to spread the word that their families' word means nothing. From a pragmatic standpoint, that's what "it is where it is" comes into play.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I’ve been around the game all my life, so I know this gets done a lot, I’m just trying to get opinions of if people think it’s shady or not.

When my child got into hockey 7 yrs ago, I warned my wife not to get too close to any of the parents because I knew what was coming eventually.

Now the shit hit the fan after tryouts this year and she feels betrayed and angry at several parents.

Our kids have been playing together for 4 years or so on the same team and 3 kids went out and secretly tried out for another team and left, even though they were already committed like the rest of our kids.

My wife and a couple other parents feel like they were stabbed in the back because now there are three holes on the roster and most of the best players in the area are already committed to other teams.

I said to my wife I get your anger and agreed these parents should have been upfront about their intentions and never committed.

However many hockey parents are out for their little Johnny and f*** everyone else, and that’s just the mentality they have… and I’m just used to that, so I wasn’t mad.

I so think it’s really shady, but these parents think what they are doing is right and trying to convince them otherwise is a fool’s errand.

Did they sign contracts?

 

[patnyrnyg]

My wife said exactly this.

These parents have told her they think their kids are special players and going to this new org will “develop them much better”.

The other org is simply a AA team selling parents on the idea they are a AAA team (they aren’t, trust me).

This is only high level AA hockey, no matter what silliness you want to be sold on for your kid.

Time to be realistic.

Not sure where you are located. In NJ, there is an organization that is known for telling parents whatever they need to tell them to get the check. Last year, they took about 5 of our kids. Told the parents they would play AA this past season and AAA next (this upcoming) season. 10U by the way. Well, they started the pre-season in AA and got crushed. So, dropped to High-A and continued to get crushed during the regular season. I know at least 3 have already left as they figured it out. Found out 2 kids I know made their 2013 AAA, neither are even close to AAA players.

 

[Outl4w]

Just a straight up question:

After tryouts for team A your kid receives an offer and you commit to them, but secretly tryout for team B weeks later and accept their offer instead… do you consider this normal hockey parent behavior or would you consider this being shady?

Depends does team B offer more that fits the parents' or child's needs or personalities? Some players do better with different coaches and players. Maybe they wanted to give both teams a and b a chance to sell their program to their child.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Depends does team B offer more that fits the parents' or child's needs or personalities? Some players do better with different coaches and players. Maybe they wanted to give both teams a and b a chance to sell their program to their child.

But there's nothing wrong with then telling Team A that. From saying "Hey we're interested, but we do want to explore the option of Team B".

So it might not work. Team A might say "sorry we need firm commitments". That tells you one of two things - either it's a really in demand team (which is good) or they're a bit desperate to lock up players early (which is bad) - and it's up to you to decide from there.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So this just flows from the discussion of competing between teams.

My kid played U15AA hockey in a HC-affiliated club program last winter. Good experience there.

The last few years he's also played in a spring hockey program. Good experience there. Spring hockey though is not HC-affiliated and never has been. Traditionally HC-affiliated hockey stops end of March or so.

So I'm not sure if it's just because my kid is now moving into second year U15 (which if you have serious asperations is your WHL draft year) but suddenly the club programs have been offering and scheduling a bunch of "ID skates" or "ID games", which weren't a thing last year at least for us. So because there are optional, and no formal team is being formed, HC has never said you can't also be doing spring hockey.

So anyways we've now had multiple times where only half the spring team shows up for a practice because they're at a club ID skate, or that kids are showing up late because they're rushing over from one event to another.

The spring hockey has been interesting though because you get to see your kid play up against not only other club hockey players (probably the majority) but also JPHL and CSSHL players. And like so many kids - there are times I think my kid is one of the strongest players on the ice - and times when I don't.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Did they sign contracts?

Ya they signed commitment contracts, and lost their commitment fee when they left.

The big issue is these three kids and their parents basically lied, and took up important roster spots.

Then two weeks later they went to another team.

Now my kids team has three huge holes on it and all of the best AA kids in the area are now all committed to other teams.

If these parents had been honest and just left without their faux commitment, these roster spots could have been filled with good players.

The head of the association, other parents and the kids who are still on the team are really, really pissed.

Not sure what you mean by "shouldn't accept"?

Can you be upset about it? Sure, but it's not like you will go around and follow these kids to spread the word that their families' word means nothing. From a pragmatic standpoint, that's what "it is where it is" comes into play.

I mean I’ve been around the game all my life and these latest events have taught me a lesson that I shouldn’t just accept this behavior is ok because… “well hockey parents”.

Basically when my wife said her and other parents felt betrayed and lied to, I shouldn’t have blown it off with “ya we keep our word but this is what many hockey parents do so whatever”

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Shady? In any walk of life, business or personal or sports, if you commit to something then back out to do something else it is an integrity issue.

When it comes to hockey parents, I think the 90% are going to do whatever is best for their kid, but a high percentage will do that very thing in an honest up front way. (Choosing academy over club, etc)

My son played for an association in U15. We moved to a different area of the city. We were told that he would be grandfathered back to his association that he played u15. After we moved, we were told, that isn't the way it works. He has to register where he lives.

Someone from the original association (Which we liked) said, just don't tell anyone you moved and we will just register him. We didn't do that.

We registered with the new association and told our son. "You don't do what is right only when it's convenient. You do what's right all the time."

He ended up having a great time at the new association.

I think we all try to do what best for our kids, but these shady parents are using that excuse as a justification for what they did.

Another kid left the team, but his father was upfront that he wasn’t happy with his kid’s ice time and he wanted to find a new team.

So they left, and went to another team.

No shady BS.

No pretending to commit.

Like parents with integrity do.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Depends does team B offer more that fits the parents' or child's needs or personalities? Some players do better with different coaches and players. Maybe they wanted to give both teams a and b a chance to sell their program to their child.

No one would have been upset if they just left for Team B without committing to Team A first.

Everyone would have wished them well, no hard feelings.

It’s the fact they all plotted together to leave the team, but used my kids team as a backup in case their kids didn’t make team B.

So my kids team… Team A, had tryouts two weeks before Team B.

Their kids made Team A and signed their commitment contracts, but knew all along their kids wanted to play for Team B.

The kids and parents on Team A are really angry because these kids and their parents lied and the coach/association head could have filled those spots before tryout season ended.

Now tryout season is over and Team A can’t fill these slots with AA players, as they are all now committed to other teams.

 

[Outl4w]

No one would have been upset if they just left for Team B without committing to Team A first.

Everyone would have wished them well, no hard feelings.

It’s the fact they all plotted together to leave the team, but used my kids team as a backup in case their kids didn’t make team B.

So my kids team… Team A, had tryouts two weeks before Team B.

Their kids made Team A and signed their commitment contracts, but knew all along their kids wanted to play for Team B.

The kids and parents on Team A are really angry because these kids and their parents lied and the coach/association head could have filled those spots before tryout season ended.

Now tryout season is over and Team A can’t fill these slots with AA players, as they are all now committed to other teams.

Call a kid that wants to play for team A. Give someone a chance that wants it. It is youth sports and people take it too serious. Grew up playing travel hockey for over 10 years, before moving to college club hockey, and upper mens league. Crazy how serious parents took it amd even would sponsor better players to try to win and take away from their child's playing time. Until high school or junior hockey let the kids have fun. I quit coaching because I got tired of volunteering to coach entitled a s nightmare parents with delusional expectations for their kids. My friend begs me to come help, but just not worth it. I would rather play an extra night or grab an extra workout or two at the gym each weeK.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Call a kid that wants to play for team A. Give someone a chance that wants it. It is youth sports and people take it too serious. Grew up playing travel hockey for over 10 years, before moving to college club hockey, and upper mens league. Crazy how serious parents took it amd even would sponsor better players to try to win and take away from their child's playing time. Until high school or junior hockey let the kids have fun. I quit coaching because I got tired of volunteering to coach entitled a s nightmare parents with delusional expectations for their kids. My friend begs me to come help, but just not worth it. I would rather play an extra night or grab an extra workout or two at the gym each weeK.

I’ve seen way too many hockey parents take this game too seriously which is why I quit coaching as well.

In this instance though, most AA and even high level single A kids are all committed.

Team A plays AAA teams numerous times at tournaments and if they ask a kid who can’t keep up, he’s going to have a miserable season.

Literally saw a single A kid crying on the bench last Christmas in this exact scenario.

They were playing in an out of league holiday tournament and the coach asked a single A kid to come play with them since it was just for fun.

The speed was too much for the kid and he broke down on the bench and refused to take anymore shifts.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So @mrjiggyfly a couple questions if you want to answer them:

-how old are these kids? You reference your kid getting into hockey 7 years ago so - 12-13 years old? The kid crying and refusing to play kind of surprises me at that age. Not saying it didn't happen, just surprising at that age (a couple years younger and it'd be no surprise).

-dad pulling a kid because of ice time complaints. Surprised that generated no disappointment from you, but also slightly surprised at the fact ice time is a complaint to begin with. At my oldest kid's level (2010) even strength ice time is still equally shared - you just roll the lines. Even at AA there's no line matching. Now what can be an issue is special teams - they do have dedicated power play and penalty kill squads, so kids can be taken on or off of special teams depending on play. I know my own kid was frustrated to be on, then off, then on again from the power play, but I was always "well talk to your coach". But again I guess that comes down to what age are we talking about - certainly at some point ice time won't be equal.


And this is more of an observation - if Team A is asking for commitments two weeks before Team B, Team A knows what they're doing, and it's probably trying to lock up better players before they can go with Team B (or teams like Team B). This was definitely a "thing" during lawyer recruitment back in the day. Not saying it's wrong for Team A to do, and I still maintain parents should be honest and upfront, but it is a strategy.

Actually thought of another anecdote also. My middle kid's team least year. This is not high level hockey - he's just playing federation hockey at U13. He was placed on a Tier 3 team. But at the start of the year three kids never showed up! They had registered, done tryouts, paid at least some of their fees for the year - then they bailed for something else. We weren't the only team to have that happen to. But that put us in a hell of a sport because we only had 11-12 skaters. Ultimately the federation, 2 weeks into the season, had to blow up a couple of other teams and redistribute a bunch of kids, which was hardly ideal, just so we could have a more complete roster. I do put at least part of the blame on our Federation itself for not realizing this might be an issue, but on the other hand it's non-profit community hockey. Everyone plays, it's just a matter of which team you make, so obviously some parents are going to look at us as a second choice.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So @mrjiggyfly a couple questions if you want to answer them:

-how old are these kids? You reference your kid getting into hockey 7 years ago so - 12-13 years old? The kid crying and refusing to play kind of surprises me at that age. Not saying it didn't happen, just surprising at that age (a couple years younger and it'd be no surprise).

-dad pulling a kid because of ice time complaints. Surprised that generated no disappointment from you, but also slightly surprised at the fact ice time is a complaint to begin with. At my oldest kid's level (2010) even strength ice time is still equally shared - you just roll the lines. Even at AA there's no line matching. Now what can be an issue is special teams - they do have dedicated power play and penalty kill squads, so kids can be taken on or off of special teams depending on play. I know my own kid was frustrated to be on, then off, then on again from the power play, but I was always "well talk to your coach". But again I guess that comes down to what age are we talking about - certainly at some point ice time won't be equal.


And this is more of an observation - if Team A is asking for commitments two weeks before Team B, Team A knows what they're doing, and it's probably trying to lock up better players before they can go with Team B (or teams like Team B). This was definitely a "thing" during lawyer recruitment back in the day. Not saying it's wrong for Team A to do, and I still maintain parents should be honest and upfront, but it is a strategy.

Actually thought of another anecdote also. My middle kid's team least year. This is not high level hockey - he's just playing federation hockey at U13. He was placed on a Tier 3 team. But at the start of the year three kids never showed up! They had registered, done tryouts, paid at least some of their fees for the year - then they bailed for something else. We weren't the only team to have that happen to. But that put us in a hell of a sport because we only had 11-12 skaters. Ultimately the federation, 2 weeks into the season, had to blow up a couple of other teams and redistribute a bunch of kids, which was hardly ideal, just so we could have a more complete roster. I do put at least part of the blame on our Federation itself for not realizing this might be an issue, but on the other hand it's non-profit community hockey. Everyone plays, it's just a matter of which team you make, so obviously some parents are going to look at us as a second choice.

- the kid who cried was 12, this was Pee Wee.

Keep in mind it was just a non league holiday tournament, so they could add anyone they wanted to the roster.

I had a feeling he would struggle getting used to high level AA, being thrown in the deep end like that, but I was surprised he literally cried and quit.

- the kid who left because of ice time I understood.

He was buried on the bottom line and actually scored a decent amount, but no matter what he did he couldn’t get more ice time.

The father was upfront about leaving, and why.

He didn’t come to tryouts and sign a faux commitment or any nonsense like the other three did.

- The team was mostly made, they only needed to fill a couple spots (so they thought).

So not sure if the earlier tryout dates were a strategy as much as how things worked out.

My wife was approached by the coach of one of the best AA teams in our area to see if my daughter wanted to play for them.

The tryouts were after Team A, so we told our daughter she had to decline her spot if she wanted to tryout for this other team.

She said no, but we weren’t going to let her do what the shady parents did.

This other team was a powerhouse and it would have been a great opportunity if my daughter made it, but there was no guarantee she would have.

She had to make a grown up decision based around the value of her word.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Watch the mockumentary called the Tournament, to see how parents are with their kids. That was entertaining. Ran for 2 seasons.

The Tournament (TV series) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Yukon Joe]

Watch the mockumentary called the Tournament, to see how parents are with their kids. That was entertaining. Ran for 2 seasons.

The Tournament (TV series) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sounds amusing. Couldn't find it streaming anywhere - not even on CBC Gem.