Line Combos: Is there enough room for Ras, Zadina etc to make team?

[raymond23]

Ericsson at his worst was always a better player than Smith and Kindl.

This I completely disagree with.

Everything else you said I agree. Let's hope Blash can make those decisions. Maybe being on the hot seat will force his hand.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It seems really silly to pretend that this team has any intention of favoring a kid over a vet, regardless of ability, when there's literally only one example of it over the last nearly 10 years of declining play. But if you want to pretend like it's something that happens regularly, you do you. I'm sure the team will put ~$4.75m AAV in the press box on a regular basis any day now.

We haven’t had many D prospects worth a damn in the last 10 years.. I mean, the best one was probably Ericsson and I’m pretty sure he was favored over some veterans.

None of this matters if the kids don’t actually outplay anyone. If Cholo/Hronek are just the next XO/Sproul, no they won’t be favored.

 

[Dotter]

I'm 99.99% sure RAS will be on the team in 2018. Possibly opening night roster... but will for sure be on the team majority of the season assuming he doesn't flame out. Zadina, not sure. Hate to burn a year of his RFA. So would be happy if he spends a year in the AHL.

I fully expect to see some young D on the team.

 

[raymond23]

Just throwing some thoughts out there:

So for some odd reason management thinks and wants us to compete next year to the point we make the playoffs. Probably for that 'winning culture' which I am not entirely against but have my issues with. Plus we know Blash is going to be weary to play the kids considering he's on the hot seat and Bylsma (yikes) potentially knocking on the door.

Reality is that there is close to zero chance we make the playoffs next year or come close for that matter. Who knows how bad it could be if Z doesn't show up.

So just looking at things realistically - I could see for the first few months management deferring to vets until they come to grips with the fact that we are trash. Then, hopefully, they start giving kids bigger roles. So that would mean something like Rasmussen and Hicketts up to start the season playing minor roles and guys like Zadina, Cholowski, Hronek and Turgeon are called up as time passes.

Not my favorite plan of action but, just looking at how management thinks and operates, this is probably most likely.​

 

[Henkka]

I could see the situation as 20-game splits.

Pre-season, teams are split nicely to 2 ~equal teams.

Team RED:
Rasmussen - Zetterberg - Nyquist
Abdelkader - Athanasiou - Zadina
David Pope - Veleno - Frk
Sadowy - Glendening - Helm

Kronwall - Hronek
Ericsson - Saarijärvi
Sulak - Daley

Howard
Larsson
Fulcher


Team WHITE:
Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Vanek - Nielsen - Svechnikov
Ehn - Holmström - Berggren
Terry - Turgeon - Witkowski

DeKeyser - Green
Cholowski - Jensen
Hicketts - McIlrath

Bernier
Säteri
Rybar

Then the Regular season will start:

1. First 20 games, vets + Michael Rasmussen and Joe Hicketts will start from Game1.
- Darren Helm gets injured at ~Game3 for one month and Martin Frk comes to 4th line.
- Frk is crap and Evgeny Svechnikov gets called from AHL.
- Hicketts stays long at Top6, because, Kronwall, Ericsson and Daley have minor problems with their health.
- Svechnikov is better than expected, after a healthy summer/pre-season, stays at Top12 and pushes Frk to waivers at 15-game mark, when Helm comes back from LTIR.

2. Second part of the season 20 to 40 games, we start make other callings.
- One veteran defenceman has a long-term injury. Filip Hronek comes in. Hicketts gets benched for a while. We are out from the playoff spot at Thanksgiving mark. Hronek is good.

3. Then we reach 40 to 60-game mark, near the trade deadline.
- Hronek is sent down earlier, HFB goes nuts, because he was superb on fans eyes. But later Holland trades Trevor Daley away and Hronek is called back after few weeks. Hronek will play ~50 games in total. People want still Ken Holland fired about this devastating Hronek-move.
- Holland trades also Gustav Nyquist, and calls David Pope up. Pope will get 10 games. HFB goes furious, why not FILIP ZADINA !!! After 10 games for Pope, Holland sends him back to Griffins and calls Zadina for last 9 games.
- Holland also trades Luke Glendening to Toronto. Helm goes back to center.
- Holland trades Jimmy Howard to Calgary Flames. Harri Säteri comes up.

4. Last 20 games.
- Another vet defenceman will get an season-ending injury, and Dennis Cholowski gets called up, will get ~15 games. Cholowski is good, but joins the AHL playoffs after the NHL regular season. Zadina joins them too and scores goal/game at AHL playoffs. Red Wings end up being 4th last on the Standings.

Season starting roster:
Abdelkader - Zetterberg - Nyquist
Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Vanek - Nielsen - Athanasiou
Rasmussen - Glendening - Helm
(Witkowski, Frk)

DeKeyser - Green
Ericsson - Daley
Kronwall - Jensen
(Hicketts)

Howard
(Bernier)

Season ending roster:
Bertuzzi - Larkin - Mantha
Rasmussen - Zetterberg - Zadina
Vanek - Nielsen - Athanasiou
Svechnikov - Helm - Abdelkader
(Witkowski, Turgeon)

DeKeyser - Green
Ericsson - Hronek
Cholowski - Jensen
(Hicketts, Kronwall)

Bernier
(Säteri)

Game totals for Kids:
Rasmussen, ~80 games
Svechnikov ~65 games
Hicketts, ~60 games
Hronek, ~50 games
Cholowski, ~15 games
Pope, ~10 games
Zadina, 9 games
Turgeon, 2 games

That's how it usually goes. We start with a vet-team, we end for a kid-team. Injury-swings during the way, some callups, trades at the deadline opining real spots. HFB going nuts, because Ken Holland being Ken Holland. Final result is good, we get kids in with some NHL taste, and have a high 1st overall at 2019 draft.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Plus we know Blash is going to be weary to play the kids considering he's on the hot seat and Bylsma (yikes) potentially knocking on the door.​

Not if the kids actually look like better options. Playing essentially the same lineup as last season will produce similar results. I'm sure Blashill knows like everyone else that the only way this team improves is by a youth and skill infusion. This is quite different from the past when we were a playoff team and Babcock leaned on veterans knowing that they'd likely get us towards the playoffs again. IF Blashill wants playoffs, his best bet is to gamble that kids like Zadina, Rasmussen and Hronek/Cholowski can step in and make an impact.

 

[raymond23]

Not if the kids actually look like better options. Playing essentially the same lineup as last season will produce similar results. I'm sure Blashill knows like everyone else that the only way this team improves is by a youth and skill infusion. This is quite different from the past when we were a playoff team and Babcock leaned on veterans knowing that they'd likely get us towards the playoffs again. IF Blashill wants playoffs, his best bet is to gamble that kids like Zadina, Rasmussen and Hronek/Cholowski can step in and make an impact.

I really hope you're right.

 

[Winger98]

If we were looking at this season as a time to use the kids because they were the best hope for moving forward we don't sign Vanek and Green. This, of course, can be mitigated if Holland makes a trade or two, but that's probably happening closer to the TDL than to October. So, there's your timeline, there's the expectations for this season.

 

[Henkka]

If we were looking at this season as a time to use the kids because they were the best hope for moving forward we don't sign Vanek and Green.

So, are these moves Tanking moves in reality? Pushing for the playoffs is just smoke-screen for season-ticket sales?

Hype some Big Name Vets, let the team fail. Replace them with kids when the failure happens. Kids will get half-season experience, and Organization gets a high 1st pick.

 

[Winger98]

So, are these moves Tanking moves in reality? Pushing for the playoffs is just smoke-screen for season-ticket sales?

Hype some Big Name Vets, let the team fail. Replace them with kids when the failure happens. Kids will get half-season experience, and Organization gets a high 1st pick.

I'm not sure how much we can hype Vanek and Green and have people buy it.

I still think this team has the talent to push for that border area and either compete for the last playoff spot or squeak into the draft lotto. Anywhere from the 15th/16th best team to the 21st/22nd. At the same time, I don't think Blashill is the guy to get that sort of result from this group of guys. Just like I think Holland over-estimated this team a bit the last few years of the streak, I think he overestimates it now.

So, is he doing it to fool some folks to buy some tickets? I don't think so.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If we were looking at this season as a time to use the kids because they were the best hope for moving forward we don't sign Vanek and Green. This, of course, can be mitigated if Holland makes a trade or two, but that's probably happening closer to the TDL than to October. So, there's your timeline, there's the expectations for this season.

The kids are our only hope moving forward, but it's not necessary to make it Plan A in 2018-19 to have 4-5 rookies from day 1. That can be Plan B, i.e. if injuries happen or the kids are just so darn great that they can't be denied.

 

[Winger98]

The kids are our only hope moving forward, but it's not necessary to make it Plan A in 2018-19 to have 4-5 rookies from day 1. That can be Plan B, i.e. if injuries happen or the kids are just so darn great that they can't be denied.

Well, first, it can't happen unless there are injuries or a trade. And I'm not sure 4-5 rookies was ever too terribly likely under any circumstance that didn't involve either a large number of injuries or trades. Someone like Hicketts or Sulak could be kept around for depth, but they aren't keeping someone significant unless they will have the chance to play a bigger role for a good stretch of time.

I've ran through this elsewhere but what happens if we don't sign Vanek and we don't like the looks of the kids in camp? Helm gets shifted solidly into the top9, and some combo of Frk/Witkowski/Turgeon gets more playing time, and/or we use another Tangradi type player for a fill-in. I'm willing to roll the dice on that scenario for the possibility of the prospect being able to play his way onto the team to be more viable.

 

[dragonballgtz]

The more I think about it the more I don't want Ras and Zadina tainted by Trashill, even if its just a year.

 

[Oddbob]

Would this scenario annoy anyone?

Zadina comes in and puts up 25 goals, 32 assists, 57 points, in basically full season
Rasmussen puts up 15 goals, 12 assists, 27 points, in 60 or so games
Hronek makes team out of camp, 5 goals, 22 assists, 27 pts, basically full season

Larkin has at least 63 pts again
Mantha scores 25-30
AA puts up 50 pts (highly doubt)
Z plays and puts in another 50 pt run

Howard stays healthy and puts up in 55-60+ games .914-.918 sv%

We make the playoffs, with the young kids leading the way, however that also means, no lottery pick. I would rather have this, with kids making an impact, then another frustrating status quo season, where we get a top 5 pick. Thoughts?

 

[raymond23]

Would this scenario annoy anyone?

Zadina comes in and puts up 25 goals, 32 assists, 57 points, in basically full season
Rasmussen puts up 15 goals, 12 assists, 27 points, in 60 or so games
Hronek makes team out of camp, 5 goals, 22 assists, 27 pts, basically full season

Larkin has at least 63 pts again
Mantha scores 25-30
AA puts up 50 pts (highly doubt)
Z plays and puts in another 50 pt run

Howard stays healthy and puts up in 55-60+ games .914-.918 sv%

We make the playoffs, with the young kids leading the way, however that also means, no lottery pick. I would rather have this, with kids making an impact, then another frustrating status quo season, where we get a top 5 pick. Thoughts?

Yes. Easily.

 

[Henkka]

Don't really believe Zadina could have that good season. 57 points would be more than Eichel did as a rookie. A pipe dream.

 

[Oddbob]

Don't really believe Zadina could have that good season. 57 points would be more than Eichel did as a rookie. A pipe dream.

No one saw Matt Barzal put up 80 pts this season either!

 

[Pavels Dog]

I've ran through this elsewhere but what happens if we don't sign Vanek and we don't like the looks of the kids in camp? Helm gets shifted solidly into the top9, and some combo of Frk/Witkowski/Turgeon gets more playing time, and/or we use another Tangradi type player for a fill-in. I'm willing to roll the dice on that scenario for the possibility of the prospect being able to play his way onto the team to be more viable.

Easier to roll the dice as a fan. GM has to consider how the lineup can look after trades (Nyquist, Athanasiou, Glendening) and an injury or two or Z not playing at all.
We'll see what happens.

As it stands now, it’s going to be crowded at forward for the Red Wings in training camp. Last year’s first-round pick, Michael Rasmussen, is expected to make the team, with the preference to ease him in on the wing. The team also signed veteran winger Thomas Vanek to a one-year contract in free agency.
But the team hasn’t completely ruled out Henrik Zetterberg’s back issues causing an early retirement, and the idea of trading away a winger for help on defense is being explored. It’s crowded now, but a lot can change between now and the start of the season.

I'd assume that no trade would happen if Z retires. In that case, very little doubt both Zadina and Rasmussen make the team out of camp. Svech and Turgeon first call-ups (one could make it as extra forward but preference is probably to play them in AHL instead).
In any case it makes a lot of sense to sign Vanek if they are both uncertain about Z and looking at trades that could happen before the start of the season.

 

[Henkka]

No one saw Matt Barzal put up 80 pts this season either!

Yeah, but you have to have some sense on your believings. Barzal was 20-year-old. Zadina is 18.

If you say that Zadina could put up 80 points as 20-year-old, I'd agree with you.

Those 57 point rookie breakers straight from draft have been:

Auston Matthews, 69p
Patrik Laine, 64p
----------------------
Jack Eichel, 56p
Niko Hischier, 52p
Connor McDavid, 48p (was on 80-point pace, but injury)
Nolan Patrick, 30p

 

[Oddbob]

Yeah, but you have to have some sense on your believings. Barzal was 20-year-old. Zadina is 18.

If you say that Zadina could put up 80 points as 20-year-old, I'd agree with you.

Those 57 point rookie breakers straight from draft have been:

Auston Matthews, 69p
Patrik Laine, 64p
----------------------
Jack Eichel, 56p
Niko Hischier, 52p
Connor McDavid, 48p (was on 80-point pace, but injury)
Nolan Patrick, 30p

Hischier and Patrick were 1 and 2 overall, but in a weaker draft, Zadina was ranked 3rd best in a better draft, and only fell to 6 because others chose position over BPA. I am not saying he is getting 57 pts, is was more pondering than anything, having said that, it isn't like it couldn't happen.

 

[Ezekial]

Yeah, but you have to have some sense on your believings. Barzal was 20-year-old. Zadina is 18.

If you say that Zadina could put up 80 points as 20-year-old, I'd agree with you.

Those 57 point rookie breakers straight from draft have been:

Auston Matthews, 69p
Patrik Laine, 64p
----------------------
Jack Eichel, 56p
Niko Hischier, 52p
Connor McDavid, 48p (was on 80-point pace, but injury)
Nolan Patrick, 30p

Enough of the alternative facts, Henkka.

He was a rookie and put up 80

 

[Henkka]

Enough of the alternative facts, Henkka.

He was a rookie and put up 80

Yeah, but point was the age-difference. Sergei Makarov as a 31-year-old rookie was a little bit different than some 18-year-old rookie.

 

[shanman]

Yeah, but point was the age-difference. Sergei Makarov as a 31-year-old rookie was a little bit different than some 18-year-old rookie.

meh 18 vs 20 is a bit different than 18/20 vs 31. Just ask any guy who is out looking for a one night stand haha.

 

[Ezekial]

Yeah, but point was the age-difference. Sergei Makarov as a 31-year-old rookie was a little bit different than some 18-year-old rookie.

I just wanted to use the term alternative facts

 

[tfong]

meh 18 vs 20 is a bit different than 18/20 vs 31. Just ask any guy who is out looking for a one night stand haha.

Wait how many drinks in am I?