Is There Anything Good?

[Actual Thought*]

With the overwhelming pessimism around here I just wanted to ask the question. Is there anything good about the Wings?

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[silkyjohnson50]

Lol classic order of posts. A better question would be, is there anything ever wrong with the Red Wings according to you?

I feel like i'm consistently one of the more optimistic posters on our board. Yet you make me seem like a villain.

The overly pessimistic are highly annoying. The overly optimistic are just as bad though.

Anyone who constantly defends the Cleary debacle makes me want to vomit.

 

[Shaman464]

McDavid?

 

[Obe2kenobe]

With the overwhelming pessimism around here I just wanted to ask the question. Is there anything good about the Wings?

Yes, there is ! Zetterberg , Nyquist, Datsyuk , Tatar,Sheahan Jurco, 22 years without missing the playoffs, Mantha, Sproul, XO, and other young guys that will be playing in the near future.
And Cleary's career has got to be close to over. Doesn't it?

 

[Actual Thought*]

[mod]

Personally I think there are a number of things to be hopeful about.

Smith looked like he might settle down and play in the 2nd half last year. I think he will take a step this year and Babs will loosen the reigns a bit.

I think DDK has huge upside and now has a season under his belt.

E is healthier? Sort of?

Z finally had surgery on his back. Could this solve the back problems that have hampered him for several years?

Pav will start the season rested

With a ton of kids coming into play which ones will take a step? Sheehan looks like a hockey player. I think we know what we have in Gus and Tats which I am pleased with. What does Weiss bring to the table? With or without Alfie I think we are extremely deep up front.

If remotely healthy I could see winning the division and hosting a playoff series. I could see people around the league talking about the Wings as contenders at the half way point.

 

[joe89]

I've been optimistic around here for the better part of five years. Enough is enough with how certain things are being handled with this team. I'm not pessimistic about the season itself. I prefer to be realistic.

 

[Dexter Colt]

As the negative or pessimistic views tend to be more often expressed, I think it's just led to the more optimistic deciding it's not worth it. Sometimes I get the feeling that the animosity towards certain players and managers has led to anyone defending them getting harsh treatment, too.

I'm not trying to name any names, nor could I even do it. The above is just based on a general vibe I've got from reading posts. And now I should move on so as to not turn this into a rant about Quincey, Kindl, Cleary or Holland.

I think there's tons of stuff to be excited for this year. Zetterberg and Weiss are hopefully going to have healthier seasons. Also going to be interesting to see where the kids - mainly Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and Jurco - are at. Dekeyser should also be a bright spot this year. And maybe even a bounce-back year from Howard.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Lol classic order of posts. A better question would be, is there anything ever wrong with the Red Wings according to you?

I feel like i'm consistently one of the more optimistic posters on our board. Yet you make me seem like a villain.

The overly pessimistic are highly annoying. The overly optimistic are just as bad though.

Anyone who constantly defends the Cleary debacle makes me want to vomit.

I don't think I am overly optimistic. I think I have realistic expectations for where this team is. I have watched this team for a long time. I have seen Holland retool on the fly before. I know that this version is a larger project than the last. I think I am realistic about the UFA market. I don't believe that Holland is suddenly an idiot or that Babs is "the wrong coach" for "this group". I know for a fact that this is an extremely well run franchise because they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the case. You would think this board was discussing Matt Millen and Marineli if you didn't know better.

I don't constantly defend Cleary but I do often point out how clear it is that Holland and Babs know more than I so I tend to give them more latitude. It seems to me they have earned it.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

I don't think I am overly optimistic. I think I have realistic expectations for where this team is. I have watched this team for a long time. I have seen Holland retool on the fly before. I know that this version is a larger project than the last. I think I am realistic about the UFA market. I don't believe that Holland is suddenly an idiot or that Babs is "the wrong coach" for "this group". I know for a fact that this is an extremely well run franchise because they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the case. You would think this board was discussing Matt Millen and Marineli if you didn't know better.

I don't constantly defend Cleary but I do often point out how clear it is that Holland and Babs know more than I so I tend to give them more latitude. It seems to me they have earned it.

They did earn it, but then they lost it when they resigned Quincey and Cleary IMO.

 

[Actual Thought*]

As the negative or pessimistic views tend to be more often expressed, I think it's just led to the more optimistic deciding it's not worth it. Sometimes I get the feeling that the animosity towards certain players and managers has led to anyone defending them getting harsh treatment, too.

I'm not trying to name any names, nor could I even do it. The above is just based on a general vibe I've got from reading posts. And now I should move on so as to not turn this into a rant about Quincey, Kindl, Cleary or Holland.

I think there's tons of stuff to be excited for this year. Zetterberg and Weiss are hopefully going to have healthier seasons. Also going to be interesting to see where the kids - mainly Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and Jurco - are at. Dekeyser should also be a bright spot this year. And maybe even a bounce-back year from Howard.

Well said. I Completely agree.

 

[Actual Thought*]

They did earn it, but then they lost it when they resigned Quincey and Cleary IMO.

How in your mind does 25 years of success get cancelled out by 2 decisions? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that Holland knows things that you don't?

 

[Vladdy84]

If you remove one or two players on this team that should have NEVER been brought back. This board would be predominantly optimistic.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

As the negative or pessimistic views tend to be more often expressed, I think it's just led to the more optimistic deciding it's not worth it. Sometimes I get the feeling that the animosity towards certain players and managers has led to anyone defending them getting harsh treatment, too.

I've noticed that the two biggest Wings sites have taken opposing views, with people migrating to whichever one fits their view. HF is negative, while MOD is positive. In kind of a fitting turn, negative posters on MOD are basically given the same treatment that positive posters get here. I guess people are just not very tolerant anywhere.

 

[Actual Thought*]

How in your mind does 25 years of success get cancelled out by 2 decisions? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that Holland knows things that you don't?

If you remove one or two players on this team that should have NEVER been brought back. This board would be predominantly optimistic.

Then I ask you the same question.

 

[Frk It]

Well, hopefully this doesn't become a flame-fest.

Some good things

-Great prospect pool: Mrazek, Mantha, Backman, Sproul, Ouellet, Larkin, Pulkkinen, Marchenko, Athanasiou, Nastasiuk, Bertuzzi
-Very good group of young NHL'ers: Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Dekeyser, Smith
-We have one of the best coaches in the league, if not the best. He has some annoying quirks, and sometimes those quirks prevent us from icing the best line-up, but he compensates for that by being a great coach. I will question his personnel decisions at times, but I will never question his ability to lead a group of men.
-Two of the best two-way players in the league, that lead by example every night. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still a treat to watch, and will teach these players coming up the right way to play and win.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Well, hopefully this doesn't become a flame-fest.

Some good things

-Great prospect pool: Mrazek, Mantha, Backman, Sproul, Ouellet, Larkin, Pulkkinen, Marchenko, Athanasiou, Nastasiuk, Bertuzzi
-Very good group of young NHL'ers: Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Dekeyser, Smith
-We have one of the best coaches in the league, if not the best. He has some annoying quirks, and sometimes those quirks prevent us from icing the best line-up, but he compensates for that by being a great coach. I will question his personnel decisions at times, but I will never question his ability to lead a group of men.
-Two of the best two-way players in the league, that lead by example every night. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still a treat to watch, and will teach these players coming up the right way to play and win.

Yeah, that reminds me.

I think this site has particular animosity for Holland/Babcock because of its focus. Namely, prospects. If those two bumbled around with veterans instead of prospects, it would be okay. But because prospects are our focus, it's an intolerable thing. and I think that's reasonable. We want prospects over veterans, and sometimes we want that even when it's unreasonable (not that it is at this moment, but sometimes it is). We're prospect enthusiasts, and Babcock and Holland are giving us veterans. It's like giving a dog broccoli.

Although I do think Cleary would still be hammered on, for some odd reason. Yeah, he sucks, but you'd think he ran over someone's dog... on purpose. It's kind of a disproportionate hatred.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

The Cleary hatred is realistically more so hatred for Babcock and Holland than it is Cleary. But Cleary is obviously the face of the entire debacle so of course he's going to be the focal point.

I totally understand needing and wanting a veteran presence. There is absolutely ZERO reason for the way this situation has been handled. Nothing in my entire life as a sports fan (and not just hockey) has angered me more. Stupid doesn't even begin to describe it.

 

[The Geelee]

Had Holland not resigned Cleary and Quincey this offseason, I would be MUCH more optimistic about both the team and upcoming season

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Be very careful with how you approach this topic. This should be about whether or not there is anything to be optomistic about in regards to the Red Wings, and NOT used as a platform to bash optomistic/pessimistic posters.

 

[GoAwayDanCleary]

How in your mind does 25 years of success get cancelled out by 2 decisions? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that Holland knows things that you don't?

But what about the past 5 years where the team has progressively gotten worse? What else could Holland possibly know that could change his opinion on Cleary or Quincey? All you need to know is that they're both terrible players who bring negative value to the team.

This team would look amazing if it weren't for all the dead weight. Get rid of Cleary, Quincey, Lashoff, Kindl and the team would already be 25% better.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah, that reminds me.

I think this site has particular animosity for Holland/Babcock because of its focus. Namely, prospects. If those two bumbled around with veterans instead of prospects, it would be okay. But because prospects are our focus, it's an intolerable thing. and I think that's reasonable. We want prospects over veterans, and sometimes we want that even when it's unreasonable (not that it is at this moment, but sometimes it is). We're prospect enthusiasts, and Babcock and Holland are giving us veterans. It's like giving a dog broccoli.

Although I do think Cleary would still be hammered on, for some odd reason. Yeah, he sucks, but you'd think he ran over someone's dog... on purpose. It's kind of a disproportionate hatred.

I don't mind the mentality here, or I just would not post. I am not going to try and change the way that hundreds of people express their opinion, that's just impossible. Regarding prospects, it's not just an inappropriate fixation on prospects in my opinion. I think most here are knowledgeable beyond that. It's situations like burying Nyquist in GR at 24 years old. It's starting a season with Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, and Cleary in your line-up when all are FAR past their expiration date. It's a failure to recognize that sometimes you have to be agressive with bringing kids up, and sometimes you have to be conservative. Not just a blanket overly-conservative approach with every single kid until they are out of options with waivers.

The criticism of Cleary is 100% justified in my opinion. Maybe it is overboard at times, but it trickles down and affects so many other things, and it was absolutely avoidable. It is a zero-gain move. And it sends an awful message on top of that.

 

[Flowah]

Yeah, that reminds me.

I think this site has particular animosity for Holland/Babcock because of its focus. Namely, prospects. If those two bumbled around with veterans instead of prospects, it would be okay. But because prospects are our focus, it's an intolerable thing. and I think that's reasonable. We want prospects over veterans, and sometimes we want that even when it's unreasonable (not that it is at this moment, but sometimes it is). We're prospect enthusiasts, and Babcock and Holland are giving us veterans. It's like giving a dog broccoli.

Although I do think Cleary would still be hammered on, for some odd reason. Yeah, he sucks, but you'd think he ran over someone's dog... on purpose. It's kind of a disproportionate hatred.

It's because they've been doing it for years and because those prospects are just so much better than the riff raff that keeps getting signed or re-signed. Seriously, Nyquist and Tatar are *excellent* hockey players. That's not just because of a focus on prospects, it's because they're actually good. No one is jumping up and down to make Pulkkinen or Sproul or Athanasiou a regular right now. The ones that have some measure of ability proven at the NHL level are the ones that people are upset about. Jurco for example.

The animosity is because many of their mistakes are just so mindnumbingly obvious. Cleary last season was not a good idea and he did it *again*. Quincey should have been a "ah crap, well, we gambled and lost, let's move on." but that didn't happen either. For several years, Holland's moves were mostly signing older, borderline players like Huskins, Salei, Williams, Sammy.

@Capsized

You need to pull the blinders off. You come in with your own bias of "Oh my god! People think Holland/Babcock make mistakes! Pessimism everywhere!" I see plenty of both. Pessimism where deserved and optimism where deserved. People in the GDT and camp threads were enthused by reports that Weiss looked healthier than ever. People were upset that a fringe NHL player was brought back after sucking for 2 straight years. People are excited about the young talent which has proven itself quite capable. People are upset that some of that young talent is going to be shafted because of overcrowding the roster again.

It's all there. You just don't want to see it, in your effort to portray everyone who is offering legitimate and deserved criticism as negative Nanceys.

How in your mind does 25 years of success get cancelled out by 2 decisions? Is it beyond the realm of possibility that Holland knows things that you don't?

First of all, the streak isn't even 25 years long, so let's slow down.

Secondly, it's not just 2 decisions. Collectively, Babcock and Holland have made many headscratchers in the past 4 years and the team has paid for it by winning... 3 series in 5 year?

Look at all the signings Holland has made in the past 5 years and tell me which ones were actually over all good for the team or made any impact? Tootoo barely played. Sammy was ineffective and injured most of the time. Cleary's sucked for 2 years. We bought out 2 of those signings. Other than Brunner and Alfie, none of them have really truly worked out. They either barely played or were at best, completely ineffective when they did. Often, they made the team worse.

Or Babcock's unintelligible decisions regarding defensive pairings, Smith's PP time, insisting Datsyuk carry Abby and Cleary for how many games? Insisting on trying to shoehorn Cleary into the lineup somewhere, usually the top9 and the PP?

There have been plenty of mistakes. But despite all that, posters still express positivity as long as you don't gloss over it so that you can maintain the narrative that people here just hate Babcock/Cleary/Holland unjustly and shout down 100% of the things they do without justification. I think a clear example would be how people have softened on Quincey. Sure, the contract was still a bit excessive, but many posters have acknowledged that he's improved his game since the first year and a half he was here.

imilarly, people were much higher on Kindl when he played decently a couple of seasons ago. Or how about Smith and Ericsson? They used to get a lot of flak for making some really, just really very poor decisions with the puck. But as they improved, the posters here changed their opinions. Changing one's opinion as the situation changes is the right thing to do, and I think it shows people accurately criticizing and analyzing certain things, not being stubborn and trying to make things fit into boxes. There's just a lot of criticism to be made. Don't confuse that with pessimism.

I remember the optimism going into the off-season. "There's no way Cleary is back, the kids have won some jobs, the forwards are gonna get healthy and we're gonna be set! Jimmy's gonna bounce back. Maybe just sign a d-man or two, promote one, we're good to go!" Do you seriously not remember? Then the hammer came down and dashed our optimism across the rocks.

 

[Frk It]

Yeah, a lot of it seems to be people are just finding what they are looking for.

I don't see an absence of either optimism or pessimism, personally.

 

[bababooeyII]

I'm optimistic about the younger players, I'm Pessimistic the younger players will get a chance to play.

 

[detredWINgs]

How is this an issue that is specific to this board? Conversations about "the good" don't last because critical thinking is the basis for this forum and all others. And critical thinking breeds disagreement. This isn't something new. It also isn't a problem, unless you associate criticism with pessimism, which IMO, is the flawed premise being established here.

Also, if you want a healthy dose of optimism, there's a stickied thread on that. Its called the "Red Wings Prospect Tracker" thread.