Is the Universe a simulation?

dogbazinho

Registered User
May 24, 2006
9,335
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Fairfax, VA
In the sense that processing power dedicated to you is freed upon for another. It's all speculation and would be pretty indistinguishable from "real life." Like most programs I'd imagine as the number of routines (people) increases that resources dedicated to each would dwindle. It somewhat jives with a personal crazy theory that I have that as we populate as a species we become spiritually stretched thin.
 

kurt

the last emperor
Sep 11, 2004
8,709
52
Victoria
If you see design in the universe, maybe an alternative explanation is.....God?

*runs from thread as a dozen people quote my post and yell at me*

I'm not sure "God" is even an alternative explanation. I think the concept is that some sort of being(s) may have applied a set of rules/variables in place and triggered a process, which is currently playing out (the universe). Which God(s) that may be, or other entities never before described/understood/known/etc, is outside of the discussion.

It's just a matter of using the term "simulation" to suggest design in the universe. The notion of or belief/faith in design is as old as our species.
 

QnebO

Wheel, snipe, celly
Feb 11, 2010
9,763
644
In the sense that processing power dedicated to you is freed upon for another. It's all speculation and would be pretty indistinguishable from "real life." Like most programs I'd imagine as the number of routines (people) increases that resources dedicated to each would dwindle. It somewhat jives with a personal crazy theory that I have that as we populate as a species we become spiritually stretched thin.



Quantum. Computers.

Once we get steady, even little bit bigger scaled quantum computer working, we can easily, I mean easily simulate an entire universe, setting just the right balance gravity and other forces. We can even test and see some new things that it would need to have an universe, and even find them from our own universe if trying to search them at best.

Have that happening, this theory will most definitely become one of the most important ones. As in the simulated universe, assuming intellectual life takes place in there, how could those simulated beings ever know they're in simulation.

It is referred in many sources, that stable quantum computer with 300 fully entangled qubits can manipulate as many classical bits of information as there are atoms in the Universe. :naughty:

As stated in gizmag article about quantum computers:
A quantum computer can perform any operation a classical computer can, but its exponential speedups only take effect when a quantum algorithm can process data in a massively parallel fashion, such as searching through a very large database, virtually designing a new drug by choosing among quadrillions of possible combinations, or simulating the behavior of every single atom in your right toe

Taking that into account, this universe could be simulated in chip sized of a... chip. Just with more than 300qbits. There could even be virtual universes inside virtual universes. This should get you all geeks learning VMWARE :naughty: There are already working quantum computers, just not powerfull enough for that kind of simulation - yet.

The team is aiming for ten qubits in five years, but both Google and IBM are already approaching this with superconducting systems. And in five years, Google plans to have ramped up to hundreds of qubits.
Source


To be a 100% fail safe simulation, there can be absolutely no bugs, errors or mishaps - or the subjects would realize that it in fact IS a simulation.

If the simulation only sets the laws of nature right and just lets it run (many times perhaps, countless times) it will end up in universe like ours - without any work of coding. Just set the rules and let the possibilities happen. That is why it will look perfect, because it is, and not even written in that manner, just a possibility capitalizing under the set rules of nature. Works to same way that winning a lottery. If you make 15 million different rows, you have 100% chance of one of them being right (finnish lotto). With large quantum computer power, it could be very possible. There could be quadrillion times billion quadrillion universes that wouldn't be like this, but there would be scenarios where it happens like it happens here, if we make simulation based on just running it on given laws on its own.

Hell, we could even find all the needed laws by just on running simulations on all possible law sets of nature as long as we find a stable set of rules from perspective of life.

Even if there were a computer or an intelligence powerful enough to pull this off, I find it unlikely that it has run for hundreds of billions of years without the slightest hick-up.

Or is the idea that distant history never really took place, but is just memories baked into the simulation?

Dinosaurs never really existed, the simulation simply added bones buried across the globe, to make us think they actually existed at one point?

If I ran a simulation and realized that something didn't fully work or was believable, I would simply shut down, improve and reboot.

Reboot = Big Bang?

Time could be scaled any how we like. We could simulate 1 second in our universe to mean 10000000000 years in the simulated universe. This could also be true for our reality if it is simulated, and it might be we last just an hour for "higher reality" time as an universe. Today, we have high speed camera footage of almost planck lenght of time. There you can see a beam of light traveling distance of a coca cola bottle and it takes minutes, you can find that on youtube, too. Here it is presented in a ted talk (forwarded it a bit for you). You will see the actual footage in this ted talk, too. https://youtu.be/Y_9vd4HWlVA?t=1m29s

You must understand that we can simulate million years in 0,0001 second if we wish to make it that way with powerfull enough (quantum) computer. Time is experiened individually. How can we know how long a year feels for a say dog? We can literally stare 0,0001 second footage for minutes when we have enough photos taken per second as shown in the video. It really brings into this reality what is relativity of time as an experience.

This could also mean few things that pop into my mind now:

1) If the chip we or any universe is simulated at crashes, everything will disappear and we will feel nothing.

2) There might equally possibly be simulated life after death in that simulated universe (if the chip doesnt crash). The one who created it might as well added it, even if the realest of real reality wouldn't actually have that. It would be equally possible to Odin exist or not, or equally possible that what ever we believe in we see / get in afterlife, or equally possible that the maker of quantum computer just didin't code anything for afterlife. However, the last seems little less likely to me, because that would be a boring thing to do. As a coder of universe, the afterlife would be probably even more interesting thing to do.



3) This simulated universe would end the endless discussion about what was before big bang to trigger it. Simply some coder, perhaps beareded guy lying on cloud, pressed a button and it happened. It would offer an exact answer to question of how the hell is it even possible that we are here.

On top of everything, nature of quantum computer is great for simulating an universe, where you just simulate endless possibilities happening the way or another. That is exactly the nature of quantum computer, that is great for analysing mass data and simulating big scale things, simulating things that are based on so called randomness (lots of possibilities and just some happening unpredictably).

If you are interested in quantum computers study about them in youtube with keywords such as quantum computer of D-wave (the googles quantum computer). There are other makers too.

https://youtu.be/DZ2DcILZAbM?t=1m45s
 
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Hippasus

1,9,45,165,495,1287,
Feb 17, 2008
5,616
346
Bridgeview
Quantum. Computers.

Once we get steady, even little bit bigger scaled quantum computer working, we can easily, I mean easily simulate an entire universe, setting just the right balance gravity and other forces. We can even test and see some new things that it would need to have an universe, and even find them from our own universe if trying to search them at best.

Have that happening, this theory will most definitely become one of the most important ones. As in the simulated universe, assuming intellectual life takes place in there, how could those simulated beings ever know they're in simulation.

It is referred in many sources, that stable quantum computer with 300 fully entangled qubits can manipulate as many classical bits of information as there are atoms in the Universe. :naughty:

As stated in gizmag article about quantum computers:

Taking that into account, this universe could be simulated in chip sized of a... chip. Just with more than 300qbits. There could even be virtual universes inside virtual universes. This should get you all geeks learning VMWARE :naughty: There are already working quantum computers, just not powerfull enough for that kind of simulation - yet.

Source




If the simulation only sets the laws of nature right and just lets it run (many times perhaps, countless times) it will end up in universe like ours - without any work of coding. Just set the rules and let the possibilities happen. That is why it will look perfect, because it is, and not even written in that manner, just a possibility capitalizing under the set rules of nature. Works to same way that winning a lottery. If you make 15 million different rows, you have 100% chance of one of them being right (finnish lotto). With large quantum computer power, it could be very possible. There could be quadrillion times billion quadrillion universes that wouldn't be like this, but there would be scenarios where it happens like it happens here, if we make simulation based on just running it on given laws on its own.

Hell, we could even find all the needed laws by just on running simulations on all possible law sets of nature as long as we find a stable set of rules from perspective of life.



Time could be scaled any how we like. We could simulate 1 second in our universe to mean 10000000000 years in the simulated universe. This could also be true for our reality if it is simulated, and it might be we last just an hour for "higher reality" time as an universe. Today, we have high speed camera footage of almost planck lenght of time. There you can see a beam of light traveling distance of a coca cola bottle and it takes minutes, you can find that on youtube, too. Here it is presented in a ted talk (forwarded it a bit for you). You will see the actual footage in this ted talk, too. https://youtu.be/Y_9vd4HWlVA?t=1m29s

You must understand that we can simulate million years in 0,0001 second if we wish to make it that way with powerfull enough (quantum) computer. Time is experiened individually. How can we know how long a year feels for a say dog? We can literally stare 0,0001 second footage for minutes when we have enough photos taken per second as shown in the video. It really brings into this reality what is relativity of time as an experience.

This could also mean few things that pop into my mind now:

1) If the chip we or any universe is simulated at crashes, everything will disappear and we will feel nothing.

2) There might equally possibly be simulated life after death in that simulated universe (if the chip doesnt crash). The one who created it might as well added it, even if the realest of real reality wouldn't actually have that. It would be equally possible to Odin exist or not, or equally possible that what ever we believe in we see / get in afterlife, or equally possible that the maker of quantum computer just didin't code anything for afterlife. However, the last seems little less likely to me, because that would be a boring thing to do. As a coder of universe, the afterlife would be probably even more interesting thing to do.



3) This simulated universe would end the endless discussion about what was before big bang to trigger it. Simply some coder, perhaps beareded guy lying on cloud, pressed a button and it happened. It would offer an exact answer to question of how the hell is it even possible that we are here.

On top of everything, nature of quantum computer is great for simulating an universe, where you just simulate endless possibilities happening the way or another. That is exactly the nature of quantum computer, that is great for analysing mass data and simulating big scale things, simulating things that are based on so called randomness (lots of possibilities and just some happening unpredictably).

If you are interested in quantum computers study about them in youtube with keywords such as quantum computer of D-wave (the googles quantum computer). There are other makers too.

https://youtu.be/DZ2DcILZAbM?t=1m45s
Not possible if the universe is infinite in any sense (big or small, duration, etc.).

Quantum computing would just facilitate storage and speed, no?

You need a means of mapping the program to (material) existence. I think any estimates are out-to-lunch without having a reasonable lead for some function or set of functions that would facilitate one to the other. Otherwise how would you know how much storage is required for any given part of the universe?

You suggested coding the rules. How does one code the laws of logic and mathematics? That is quite an impossible feat. Coding is algorithmic (a finite chain of commands or a hypothetical "mechanical" procedure). How do you enact the laws of mathematics given the multiplicity of geometries and the sheer complexity of any one field, say number theory? More to the point, how you determine that which determines the possibility of formal relationships of a thing? This is out of reach as a matter of principle. I think the burden of proof is on your side: how are digits and say, life, commensurable? I feel like you are acting like quantum computing is some sort of magic wand.

honestly what is everyone talking about
Is it possible: (a) to simulate one subsection of the universe, or (b) to simulate one sufficiently similar to one such subsection of the universe perceived by us in the way it is (presumably as real, actual, objectual, substantial, etc.), such that the simulated one is sufficiently similar to the real one in that it is also acceptably able to be considered (real, actual, objectual, substantial, etc.)? I feel like the criterion for the authenticity may be an infinite regress (it becomes increasingly more fuzzy to determine the reality of one simulation as they conglomerate, or are applied onto each other as multiple functions (or an argument onto a function)). This at least I think additionally makes it likely that an infinitely-nested set of simulacra are impossible to perceive by us (from our current conceptual / relational frameworks anyway). A crude way of making the infinite regress point I just made is, you can't make the meta-level forward (it is rather retroactively / atemporally all-encompassing if anything).
 
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QnebO

Wheel, snipe, celly
Feb 11, 2010
9,763
644
Not possible if the universe is infinite in any sense (big or small, duration, etc.).
Which we don't know. There are hyphothesis by known scientist and philosophist about things only coming into existance if some one aware is looking or otherwise monitoring them. As einstein thought, he doesn't know if the moon really exist when he doesn't look, but he believes so. And some one said "if a tree falls in the forest and no being is there to hear it, does it even make a sound?".

This is the way the simulation perhaps could be done. Only if the programmer or "simulated being" watches, something should be simulated completely. Otherwise, only some results of it could be simulated perhaps and leave some parts of it out when no one is to read them when they happen.

Quantum computing would just facilitate storage and speed, no?
It takes advantage of superpositions and quantum entanglement. It has transistor that instead of holding one bit inside them holds quantum bit that can be any value between 1,0 or any value between them. When you have many transistors like this, you can do very complex mass data simulations compared to norman transistors who only hold either 1 or 0. There are tons of articles and material already trying to explain how quantum computer already works. Easiest start are videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhHMJCUmq28

You need a means of mapping the program to (material) existence. I think any estimates are out-to-lunch with out having a reasonable lead for some function or set of functions that would facilitate one to the other. Otherwise how would you know how much storage is required for any given part of the universe?

Can't answer. Though if only parts of universe that are being watched are being fully "drawn" if you will use of this term, it will also save "disk space".

Ps. Collapse of quantum probability wave looks to behave like this would suggest. Watching it makes it be something, otherwise it acts just as possibilities.

You suggested coding the rules. How does one code the laws of logic and mathematics? That is quite an impossible feat. Coding is algorithmic (a finite chain of commands or a hypothetical "mechanical" procedure). How do you enact the laws of mathematics given the multiplicity of geometries and the sheer complexity of any one field, say number theory? More to the point, how you determine that which determines the possibility of formal relationships of a thing? This is out of reach as a matter of principle. I think the burden of proof is on your side: how are digits and say, life, commensurable? I feel like you are acting like quantum computing is some sort of magic wand.

Can't answer with my knowledge about how to code some of the laws of physics, though we see ways to simulate gravity and other forces in even todays pc games let alone simulations of science with very compromized computing power.

If the processor itself works with the number theory of this universe, it will kinda bring the number theory working in the code. What do you really mean? I'm not sure about this science, is fact that 1+1=2 even needed to be told for processor, or does it work because the whole processor is build on maths of this reality?

I don't believe that laws of logics have to be told for computer at all. Currently, in reality, transistors in processor simply have or don't have electrical current in current computers (1/0). Transistors have no idea about logics, transistors have no idea about their own existance, but still they do work, because we can take advantage of simply konwing if power on/power off. Simply those two states (1/0) when used correctly (and have countless transistors that can either value) make maths, logics ect possible.
 
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kurt

the last emperor
Sep 11, 2004
8,709
52
Victoria
Is it just me, or does this discussion have nothing to do with computing? Computing is a concept of our own creation. Discussing computing limits and capabilities only explores what we are capable of calculating.

This whole concept involves a process (or processes) being carried out totally beyond our realm of understanding, observation, and even imagination.
 

hatterson

Registered User
Apr 12, 2010
35,388
12,728
North Tonawanda, NY
You suggested coding the rules. How does one code the laws of logic and mathematics? That is quite an impossible feat. Coding is algorithmic (a finite chain of commands or a hypothetical "mechanical" procedure). How do you enact the laws of mathematics given the multiplicity of geometries and the sheer complexity of any one field, say number theory? More to the point, how you determine that which determines the possibility of formal relationships of a thing? This is out of reach as a matter of principle.

Mathematics and logic are based on and built around a finite number of axiomatic statements. It is absolutely possible to code these into a program.

Sure, the infinite list of possible hypothesis, theories and laws cannot be enumerated and mapped to each other, but they don't need to be. They could be build on the fly from those axiomatic statements.
 

Hippasus

1,9,45,165,495,1287,
Feb 17, 2008
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Which we don't know. There are hyphothesis by known scientist and philosophist about things only coming into existance if some one aware is looking or otherwise monitoring them. As einstein thought, he doesn't know if the moon really exist when he doesn't look, but he believes so. And some one said "if a tree falls in the forest and no being is there to hear it, does it even make a sound?".

This is the way the simulation perhaps could be done. Only if the programmer or "simulated being" watches, something should be simulated completely. Otherwise, only some results of it could be simulated perhaps and leave some parts of it out when no one is to read them when they happen.


It takes advantage of superpositions and quantum entanglement. It has transistor that instead of holding one bit inside them holds quantum bit that can be any value between 1,0 or any value between them. When you have many transistors like this, you can do very complex mass data simulations compared to norman transistors who only hold either 1 or 0. There are tons of articles and material already trying to explain how quantum computer already works. Easiest start are videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhHMJCUmq28



Can't answer. Though if only parts of universe that are being watched are being fully "drawn" if you will use of this term, it will also save "disk space".

Ps. Collapse of quantum probability wave looks to behave like this would suggest. Watching it makes it be something, otherwise it acts just as possibilities.



Can't answer with my knowledge about how to code some of the laws of physics, though we see ways to simulate gravity and other forces in even todays pc games let alone simulations of science with very compromized computing power.

If the processor itself works with the number theory of this universe, it will kinda bring the number theory working in the code. What do you really mean? I'm not sure about this science, is fact that 1+1=2 even needed to be told for processor, or does it work because the whole processor is build on maths of this reality?

I don't believe that laws of logics have to be told for computer at all. Currently, in reality, transistors in processor simply have or don't have electrical current in current computers (1/0). Transistors have no idea about logics, transistors have no idea about their own existance, but still they do work, because we can take advantage of simply konwing if power on/power off. Simply those two states (1/0) when used correctly (and have countless transistors that can either value) make maths, logics ect possible.
I'm a Platonic realist so I don't agree with those Einstein quotes / suppositions you gave.

I will try to learn more about quantum computing, as I am a bit interested in the subject. I'll start with the ones in this thread and get back to you at a later date. :)

Okay, logic doesn't have to be taken in by the program about which you are talking. Point taken. That is significant and I misunderstood you on this point.

You sure transistors have no true logic built into them? That sounds like a bold statement. The pure logic and laws of mathematics are true in and of themselves and independently of the physical universe. Yet somehow they are able to be applied readily in physics, statistics, etc. They are separate, yet implicit to the activity of the physical universe. So any program can't hope to build that into it, because programs are fundamentally algorithmic and this is a small piece of the pure mathematics pie (recursion theory). The program must abide by the laws of logic and mathematics, and those disciplines are likewise implicit to it.

Is it just me, or does this discussion have nothing to do with computing? Computing is a concept of our own creation. Discussing computing limits and capabilities only explores what we are capable of calculating.

This whole concept involves a process (or processes) being carried out totally beyond our realm of understanding, observation, and even imagination.
The activity of Turing Machines are just a generalization, anything that is said of them can be demonstrated by concrete processes. I had been thinking that that was true of them from the get-go of recursion theory. The Halting Problem involves a proof by contradiction, yes. So it is beyond the imagination in a way (such maneuvers are often present in classical logic and a lot of pure mathematics).

Mathematics and logic are based on and built around a finite number of axiomatic statements. It is absolutely possible to code these into a program.

Sure, the infinite list of possible hypothesis, theories and laws cannot be enumerated and mapped to each other, but they don't need to be. They could be build on the fly from those axiomatic statements.
Are you referring to Hilbert's Program? Or perhaps Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory plus the Axiom of Choice?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_program
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo–Fraenkel_set_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_choice
 
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QnebO

Wheel, snipe, celly
Feb 11, 2010
9,763
644
Transistors are electrical on/off switches, they do not have understanding or logic as self.

By my understanding, if you want to count 2*2, you take:

4 transistors, make them two "AND" logic gate, and then fire electricity trough all those four transistors while counting both sum of both and transistors together:

Two transistor gate 1
---|---
---|---
+
Two transistor gate 2
---|---
---|---

You have two groups of two and you add them together, you get four transistors on "yes" or "on" position (electric current going trough them), wich means four bits, wich means answer is 4.

If you take 2*10 for example, you just make ten groups of two and count them together. Anything can be count by only adding. 500 / 2 = test how many times you add 2 to the zero untill you reach 500 and so on.

This is how I see transistor and thats why I think, no that doesn't have any good logics, it's simply transistors having or not having electrical current and sensor detecting it, indicating that with input of 0 or 1. All the logics must be based on level after that, the code that makes something out of those outputs. The iron itself cant understand. It still feels like wonder though, how peace of metl junk can create so complex maths, games, graphics and such, but it's really still just transistors having or not having energy and the coders doing the rest on many layers. First are ayer of really basic binar coding which are the only languages that processor can understand straightly without translation, and then more advanced languages, that are scripted in human form to have complex things have done more easily. Instead of just writing tons of binar code, you can just write "if x=y, do b". Peace of iron junk can't straightly understand C++ commands, but they're translated to basic binar machine code trough translator, and binar code just gives the right orders for all those endless amount of transistors to make right kind of calculations.
 
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kurt

the last emperor
Sep 11, 2004
8,709
52
Victoria
Transistors are electrical on/off switches, they do not have understanding or logic as self.

By my understanding, if you want to count 2*2, you take:

4 transistors, make them two "AND" logic gate, and then fire electricity trough all those four transistors while counting both sum of both and transistors together:

Two transistor gate 1
---|---
---|---
+
Two transistor gate 2
---|---
---|---

You have two groups of two and you add them together, you get four transistors on "yes" or "on" position (electric current going trough them), wich means four bits, wich means answer is 4.

If you take 2*10 for example, you just make ten groups of two and count them together. Anything can be count by only adding. 500 / 2 = test how many times you add 2 to the zero untill you reach 500 and so on.

This is how I see transistor and thats why I think, no that doesn't have any good logics, it's simply transistors having or not having electrical current and sensor detecting it, indicating that with input of 0 or 1. All the logics must be based on level after that, the code that makes something out of those outputs. The iron itself cant understand. It still feels like wonder though, how peace of metl junk can create so complex maths, games, graphics and such, but it's really still just transistors having or not having energy and the coders doing the rest on many layers. First are ayer of really basic binar coding which are the only languages that processor can understand straightly without translation, and then more advanced languages, that are scripted in human form to have complex things have done more easily. Instead of just writing tons of binar code, you can just write "if x=y, do b". Peace of iron junk can't straightly understand C++ commands, but they're translated to basic binar machine code trough translator, and binar code just gives the right orders for all those endless amount of transistors to make right kind of calculations.

Again, I'm not sure how any of this discussion relates to exploring the idea of whether the universe is a simulation, and I'm not sure I fully understood your post, but couldn't you similarly shrug off the capability of our minds by exploring the relatively mundane nature of the atoms that a brain cell is comprised of?
 

Led Zappa

Tomorrow Today
Jan 8, 2007
50,344
872
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Again, I'm not sure how any of this discussion relates to exploring the idea of whether the universe is a simulation, and I'm not sure I fully understood your post, but couldn't you similarly shrug off the capability of our minds by exploring the relatively mundane nature of the atoms that a brain cell is comprised of?

Yes.

We are just beginning to explore biological computing and things like gene editing. You edit a gene and the rest is done by another organism. In this case the human body. The human body is comprised of many "technologies"working in concert. Much like a circuit board that has capacitors, resistors AND transistors making the yes no decisions.

A entity capable of creating the universe as a simulation would be so far beyond our comprehension. I mean, in theory, everything is a yes no decision. can the cells combine? Yes or no? Do the atoms attract. Yes or no?

We only need think about the fact that 200 years ago no one could imagine genes, much less being able to edit them or manipulate atoms. Just our solar systems is 4.5 billion years old. That entire time could be 1 year to the creators of this "simulation".

Thinking of creating a universe limiting it to our understanding of computing is like comparing a child that finally understands 1+1=2 and a college student understanding calculus and geometry only on a much grander scale.

If we are a simulation, we could just be a static simulation. Meaning the universe was created and evolves based on the originating formula/design. Or the simulation could be accessible to revisions.

We'll never know.

Or will we?

Déjà vu :sarcasm:
 

gary69

Registered User
Sep 22, 2004
8,406
1,684
Then and there
Yes.

We are just beginning to explore biological computing and things like gene editing. You edit a gene and the rest is done by another organism. In this case the human body. The human body is comprised of many "technologies"working in concert. Much like a circuit board that has capacitors, resistors AND transistors making the yes no decisions.

A entity capable of creating the universe as a simulation would be so far beyond our comprehension. I mean, in theory, everything is a yes no decision. can the cells combine? Yes or no? Do the atoms attract. Yes or no?

We only need think about the fact that 200 years ago no one could imagine genes, much less being able to edit them or manipulate atoms. Just our solar systems is 4.5 billion years old. That entire time could be 1 year to the creators of this "simulation".

Thinking of creating a universe limiting it to our understanding of computing is like comparing a child that finally understands 1+1=2 and a college student understanding calculus and geometry only on a much grander scale.

If we are a simulation, we could just be a static simulation. Meaning the universe was created and evolves based on the originating formula/design. Or the simulation could be accessible to revisions.

We'll never know.

Or will we?

Déjà vu :sarcasm:

Yeah, if some entity would be able to create an universe level simulation, then it's reasonable to assume it would be able to select conditions like:

-limit the simulation by speed of light (the creator itself could move say billion times a speed of light, so it could observe the simulation in slow motion)

-gravity
 

Hippasus

1,9,45,165,495,1287,
Feb 17, 2008
5,616
346
Bridgeview
Good points from Avder's article in the opening post (see quote below). It makes a similar point to the one I made about infinite regress, and perhaps FinlandiaWOAT in his relaying of the Allegory of the Cave in The Republic.

Professor Peter Millican, who teaches philosophy and computer science at Oxford University, thinks the virtual reality explanation is flawed.

"The theory seems to be based on the assumption that ‘superminds’ would do things in much the same way as we would do them," he said.

"If they think this world is a simulation, then why do they think the superminds – who are outside the simulation – would be constrained by the same sorts of thoughts and methods that we are?

"They assume that the ultimate structure of a real world can't be grid like, and also that the superminds would have to implement a virtual world using grids.

"We can’t conclude that a grid structure is evidence of a pretend reality just because our ways of implementing a pretend reality involve a grid."

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style...e-Matrix-Universe-Planet-Earth-NASA-Scientist

Which we don't know. There are hyphothesis by known scientist and philosophist about things only coming into existance if some one aware is looking or otherwise monitoring them. As einstein thought, he doesn't know if the moon really exist when he doesn't look, but he believes so. And some one said "if a tree falls in the forest and no being is there to hear it, does it even make a sound?".

This is the way the simulation perhaps could be done. Only if the programmer or "simulated being" watches, something should be simulated completely. Otherwise, only some results of it could be simulated perhaps and leave some parts of it out when no one is to read them when they happen.


It takes advantage of superpositions and quantum entanglement. It has transistor that instead of holding one bit inside them holds quantum bit that can be any value between 1,0 or any value between them. When you have many transistors like this, you can do very complex mass data simulations compared to norman transistors who only hold either 1 or 0. There are tons of articles and material already trying to explain how quantum computer already works. Easiest start are videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhHMJCUmq28



Can't answer. Though if only parts of universe that are being watched are being fully "drawn" if you will use of this term, it will also save "disk space".

Ps. Collapse of quantum probability wave looks to behave like this would suggest. Watching it makes it be something, otherwise it acts just as possibilities.



Can't answer with my knowledge about how to code some of the laws of physics, though we see ways to simulate gravity and other forces in even todays pc games let alone simulations of science with very compromized computing power.

If the processor itself works with the number theory of this universe, it will kinda bring the number theory working in the code. What do you really mean? I'm not sure about this science, is fact that 1+1=2 even needed to be told for processor, or does it work because the whole processor is build on maths of this reality?

I don't believe that laws of logics have to be told for computer at all. Currently, in reality, transistors in processor simply have or don't have electrical current in current computers (1/0). Transistors have no idea about logics, transistors have no idea about their own existance, but still they do work, because we can take advantage of simply konwing if power on/power off. Simply those two states (1/0) when used correctly (and have countless transistors that can either value) make maths, logics ect possible.
If logic doesn't need to be coded into the program generating the simulacrum, neither should number theory. Coding either of them into the program(s) are impossible feats, as far as I can tell.

After having read a couple articles and watched a couple videos from this thread, I think I was correct in saying that quantum computing would pretty much just facilitate storage and speed. The same limitations that I attributed to digital computers apply to any hypothetical quantum computers as well. (This is when I was talking about the Halting Problem.)

I also still think you need a means of mapping the program to (material) existence. I think any estimates are idle speculation without having a reasonable lead for some function or set of functions that would map one to the other. Otherwise how would you know how much storage is required for any given part of the universe? To reiterate: Such a program is impossible if the (part of the) universe that is the basis for the simulacrum is infinite in any sense (big or small, duration, etc.).

To add to this, there is the infinite regress problem that I encountered when I tried to stipulate the criterion for a successful / sufficiently-real simulacrum:

Is it possible: (a) to simulate one subsection of the universe, or (b) to simulate one sufficiently similar to one such subsection of the universe perceived by us in the way it is (presumably as real, actual, objectual, substantial, etc.), such that the simulated one is sufficiently similar to the real one in that it is also acceptably able to be considered (real, actual, objectual, substantial, etc.)? I feel like the criterion for the authenticity may be an infinite regress (it becomes increasingly more fuzzy to determine the reality of one simulacrum as the simulacra conglomerate, or are applied onto each other as multiple functions (or an argument onto a function)). This at least I think additionally makes it likely that an infinitely-nested set of simulacra are impossible to perceive by us (from our current conceptual / relational frameworks anyway). A crude way of making the infinite regress point I just made is, you can't make the meta-level forward (it is rather retroactively / atemporally all-encompassing if anything).

My two cents: I don't think it really matters whether we go with (a) or (b). In either case we encounter an infinite regress as soon as we try to judge the simulacrum as real. It has to simultaneously be sufficiently-real, in a sense, and sufficiently artificial (in the manner of a simulacrum), in another sense. These two criteria are in conflict and thus the overall criteria for a bona fide simulacrum remains fuzzy. It is only in reference to the outer framework, or meta-level, that the simulacrum is judged as such. Furthermore, as soon as some phenomenon is judged as a real simulacrum, it follows we are not in a simulacrum, and that which we are considering as simulacrum is no longer a bona fide simulacrum. To judge a phenomenon as artificial requires an investment in the truth-value of one's thought and statements in order for there to be leverage for the judgment. At least from the vantage point of the simulators, the alleged simulacrum is subject to the laws of nature. The situation I am describing is a bit like a reductio ad absurdum, or the proof by contradiction that forms part of the presentation of the Halting Problem, but for a simulacrum.

Transistors are electrical on/off switches, they do not have understanding or logic as self.

By my understanding, if you want to count 2*2, you take:

4 transistors, make them two "AND" logic gate, and then fire electricity trough all those four transistors while counting both sum of both and transistors together:

Two transistor gate 1
---|---
---|---
+
Two transistor gate 2
---|---
---|---

You have two groups of two and you add them together, you get four transistors on "yes" or "on" position (electric current going trough them), wich means four bits, wich means answer is 4.

If you take 2*10 for example, you just make ten groups of two and count them together. Anything can be count by only adding. 500 / 2 = test how many times you add 2 to the zero untill you reach 500 and so on.

This is how I see transistor and thats why I think, no that doesn't have any good logics, it's simply transistors having or not having electrical current and sensor detecting it, indicating that with input of 0 or 1. All the logics must be based on level after that, the code that makes something out of those outputs. The iron itself cant understand. It still feels like wonder though, how peace of metl junk can create so complex maths, games, graphics and such, but it's really still just transistors having or not having energy and the coders doing the rest on many layers. First are ayer of really basic binar coding which are the only languages that processor can understand straightly without translation, and then more advanced languages, that are scripted in human form to have complex things have done more easily. Instead of just writing tons of binar code, you can just write "if x=y, do b". Peace of iron junk can't straightly understand C++ commands, but they're translated to basic binar machine code trough translator, and binar code just gives the right orders for all those endless amount of transistors to make right kind of calculations.
Whether we are talking about capacitors, resistors, transistors, or relays in general, it doesn't really matter. There are certain fundamental limitations that have to do with our language / the nature of understanding of formal systems / modeling. These would be felt if any simulacrum had to be judged as sufficiently-real and-or if the real basis of the simulacrum on the part of the universe was infinite in any sense pertinent to it being copied and-or mapped for the simulacrum.

Yes.

We are just beginning to explore biological computing and things like gene editing. You edit a gene and the rest is done by another organism. In this case the human body. The human body is comprised of many "technologies"working in concert. Much like a circuit board that has capacitors, resistors AND transistors making the yes no decisions.

A entity capable of creating the universe as a simulation would be so far beyond our comprehension. I mean, in theory, everything is a yes no decision. can the cells combine? Yes or no? Do the atoms attract. Yes or no?

We only need think about the fact that 200 years ago no one could imagine genes, much less being able to edit them or manipulate atoms. Just our solar systems is 4.5 billion years old. That entire time could be 1 year to the creators of this "simulation".

Thinking of creating a universe limiting it to our understanding of computing is like comparing a child that finally understands 1+1=2 and a college student understanding calculus and geometry only on a much grander scale.

If we are a simulation, we could just be a static simulation. Meaning the universe was created and evolves based on the originating formula/design. Or the simulation could be accessible to revisions.

We'll never know.

Or will we?

Déjà vu :sarcasm:
The bolded states one of the things I have been trying to express a bit more pointedly.
 
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