Is the FHL slowly legitimizing itself?

[hurricanesfan123]

lol FPHL shenanigans

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

Like the Fed has been the only league that has teams pop up and not last very long. The Bay Area lost the Seals and no one thought they ought to have a team. Then the Sharks came in and proved them wrong. Same thing with San Diego losing multiple hockey teams and being a market no one thought should have hockey. Now look at how well the Gulls are doing. The NHL let Hartford have a team, and they were a minuscule market that wasn't even the biggest city in the state. Do you remember the clown show that was the Cleveland Barons? Beast of New Haven? Stop acting like the Fed is special because of how often it has messed up.

NHL Barons or the Sharks farm team?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

NHL Barons or the Sharks farm team?

NHL Barons. They played deep into the suburbs, regularly missed payroll, needed constant injections from the league to finish the season.

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

NHL Barons. They played deep into the suburbs, regularly missed payroll, needed constant injections from the league to finish the season.

I wouldn't necessarily say the arena location was a massive negative. The Cavaliers and indoor soccer thrived at that arena (and the WHA did well there pre-Barons). It was the other stuff (plus lack of marketing and bad luck with the weather - Cleveland's two worst winters ever) that did them in.

 

[mk80]

I posted this in a new thread in the junior hockey forum but feel like it should also be put here for discussion:

The NAHL Wilkesbarre/Scranton Knights relocated to Danbury, and have assumed the Danbury Hat Tricks identity. There's no mention of the FPHL version leaving. When the FPHL Hat Tricks were originally announced the press releases did mention they wanted to pursue an NAHL franchise as well. But with FPHL, NAHL, NA3HL, and NWHL all housed in the same building I feel like one will have to give sooner or later and assuming the current FPHL identity and the Hat Tricks Coach/GM coming from that same role with the "pro" team I think are two indications pointing toward the FPHL being cut.

NAHL announces relocation of WBS Knights to Danbury, Connecticut

 

[sabremike]

I posted this in a new thread in the junior hockey forum but feel like it should also be put here for discussion:

The NAHL Wilkesbarre/Scranton Knights relocated to Danbury, and have assumed the Danbury Hat Tricks identity. There's no mention of the FPHL version leaving. When the FPHL Hat Tricks were originally announced the press releases did mention they wanted to pursue an NAHL franchise as well. But with FPHL, NAHL, NA3HL, and NWHL all housed in the same building I feel like one will have to give sooner or later and assuming the current FPHL identity and the Hat Tricks Coach/GM coming from that same role with the "pro" team I think are two indications pointing toward the FPHL being cut.

NAHL announces relocation of WBS Knights to Danbury, Connecticut

I would be beyond stunned if that is what happened. The last two teams (Colonials and Whale) are ones absolutely nobody cares about, if they cut # of teams they would be the ones cut. Having an FPHL and NAHL team would make tons more sense.

 

[sabremike]

 

[Ratitude]

I posted this in a new thread in the junior hockey forum but feel like it should also be put here for discussion:

The NAHL Wilkesbarre/Scranton Knights relocated to Danbury, and have assumed the Danbury Hat Tricks identity. There's no mention of the FPHL version leaving. When the FPHL Hat Tricks were originally announced the press releases did mention they wanted to pursue an NAHL franchise as well. But with FPHL, NAHL, NA3HL, and NWHL all housed in the same building I feel like one will have to give sooner or later and assuming the current FPHL identity and the Hat Tricks Coach/GM coming from that same role with the "pro" team I think are two indications pointing toward the FPHL being cut.

NAHL announces relocation of WBS Knights to Danbury, Connecticut

Having an NAHL team is a good thing but geez Danbury how many teams and leagues do they think they can sustain, and all with same brand name. They're driving me crazy in Danbury, find a team, in a league, and stick to one lol. For what its worth Trasher games in the United League were a fun time, especially that lock out year....nuts

 

[mk80]

I would be beyond stunned if that is what happened. The last two teams (Colonials and Whale) are ones absolutely nobody cares about, if they cut # of teams they would be the ones cut. Having an FPHL and NAHL team would make tons more sense.

Having an NAHL team is a good thing but geez Danbury how many teams and leagues do they think they can sustain, and all with same brand name. They're driving me crazy in Danbury, find a team, in a league, and stick to one lol. For what its worth Trasher games in the United League were a fun time, especially that lock out year....nuts

While the Whale and the Colonials (3HL) don't bring a high level of fans. The FPHL and NAHL Hat Tricks are essentially competing for the same fan base now. Even if the NWHL and 3HL were to be cut, you'd still have the two Hat Tricks competing for the same fans, and I think that's unsustainable for both. And I think the FPHL GM/Head Coach moving to the NAHL team is telling.

 

[sabremike]

While the Whale and the Colonials (3HL) don't bring a high level of fans. The FPHL and NAHL Hat Tricks are essentially competing for the same fan base now. Even if the NWHL and 3HL were to be cut, you'd still have the two Hat Tricks competing for the same fans, and I think that's unsustainable for both. And I think the FPHL GM/Head Coach moving to the NAHL team is telling.

As someone who lives right next door to Danbury and who once worked for the Trashers I can tell you exactly what will happen: people will go to the FPHL games, nobody will go to the NAHL games. The market will not accept an amateur league (and especially one with no fighting).

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

As someone who lives right next door to Danbury and who once worked for the Trashers I can tell you exactly what will happen: people will go to the FPHL games, nobody will go to the NAHL games. The market will not accept an amateur league (and especially one with no fighting).

Not that I am very well plugged in at all, but I heard it was the main reason there wasn't NAHL expansion into Elmira and Danbury, until now. They are two markets that (to put it nicely) prefer the type of hockey that the FPHL provides: a fairly low skill level with plenty of physicality, fighting, and plenty of goals.

 

[JMCx4]

... Even if the NWHL and 3HL were to be cut, you'd still have the two Hat Tricks competing for the same fans, and I think that's unsustainable for both. And I think the FPHL GM/Head Coach moving to the NAHL team is telling.

That could be an additional assignment, not a change of jobs.

 

[Ratitude]

I won't ever crap on the FHL or FPHL lol. It serves a "certain" market, like it or not. It appears a good fit for places like Danbury, Watertown, and Elmira. It's no doubt had growing pains and controversy but if you are a fan of the game or in a small city with limited things going on sports entertainment wise then its better then nothing unless the local mall movie theater or bowling alley hangout is more appealing lol. In other words its better then no hockey and fills the dates in smaller arenas when the Shrine Circus or one hit wonder bands are not in town

 

[Basil]

As someone who lives right next door to Danbury and who once worked for the Trashers I can tell you exactly what will happen: people will go to the FPHL games, nobody will go to the NAHL games. The market will not accept an amateur league (and especially one with no fighting).

Who said there was no fighting in the NAHL? It all depends on how each team is built. There are finesse teams and there are physical teams. Johnstown, Jamestown, Maine and Maryland all play a physical style in the East Division, and fighting among these teams is common. The only problem with playing a too much of a physical style, is that fact that you have young, inexperienced referees who tend to go overboard against the physical teams. If you want to also win hockey games, you have to tone down the physical play.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Who said there was no fighting in the NAHL? It all depends on how each team is built. There are finesse teams and there are physical teams. Johnstown, Jamestown, Maine and Maryland all play a physical style in the East Division, and fighting among these teams is common. The only problem with playing a too much of a physical style, is that fact that you have young, inexperienced referees who tend to go overboard against the physical teams. If you want to also win hockey games, you have to tone down the physical play.

I think what he meant is that the number of fights and level of physicality in the Fed far exceeds the number of fights and level of physicality in the NAHL.

The NAHL does have fights and a lot of physicality. But, the league starts handing out punishment when players accumulate more than 8 throughout the season. Few players get the punishment because few players accumulate that many fights. Players in the Fed regularly will have 8 fights in a 3 game weekend. You can check out the NAHL code of conduct: http://nahl.com/nahl/downloads/code-of-conduct.pdf. The Fed encourages what the NAHL cracks down on.

I think he also meant that the Fed is physical and fight-filled to the extent that it is detrimental to the skill-level present in the league. And certain markets, namely Danbury and Elmira, like that kind of hockey. And certain markets, namely Danbury and Elmira, would show up en masse for any league that does not provide that style of hockey. The NAHL is physical, but it is skilled hockey and most of their players end up advancing to play NCAA D1 or very high end D3 hockey. The Fed is a glorified beer league/WWE combination. Not that there is anything wrong with that, there are clearly markets that in enjoy it.

 

[Basil]

I think what he meant is that the number of fights and level of physicality in the Fed far exceeds the number of fights and level of physicality in the NAHL.

The NAHL does have fights and a lot of physicality. But, the league starts handing out punishment when players accumulate more than 8 throughout the season. Few players get the punishment because few players accumulate that many fights. Players in the Fed regularly will have 8 fights in a 3 game weekend. You can check out the NAHL code of conduct: http://nahl.com/nahl/downloads/code-of-conduct.pdf. The Fed encourages what the NAHL cracks down on.

I think he also meant that the Fed is physical and fight-filled to the extent that it is detrimental to the skill-level present in the league. And certain markets, namely Danbury and Elmira, like that kind of hockey. And certain markets, namely Danbury and Elmira, would show up en masse for any league that does not provide that style of hockey. The NAHL is physical, but it is skilled hockey and most of their players end up advancing to play NCAA D1 or very high end D3 hockey. The Fed is a glorified beer league/WWE combination. Not that there is anything wrong with that, there are clearly markets that in enjoy it.

The LNAH doesn't even have that much fighting anymore. I've seen some of the videos of the Fed league fights and I wouldn't even consider most of them fights. They'd be just roughing penalties a few years ago.

 

[sabremike]

I think what he meant is that the number of fights and level of physicality in the Fed far exceeds the number of fights and level of physicality in the NAHL.

The NAHL does have fights and a lot of physicality. But, the league starts handing out punishment when players accumulate more than 8 throughout the season. Few players get the punishment because few players accumulate that many fights. Players in the Fed regularly will have 8 fights in a 3 game weekend. You can check out the NAHL code of conduct: http://nahl.com/nahl/downloads/code-of-conduct.pdf. The Fed encourages what the NAHL cracks down on.

I think he also meant that the Fed is physical and fight-filled to the extent that it is detrimental to the skill-level present in the league. And certain markets, namely Danbury and Elmira, like that kind of hockey. And certain markets, namely Danbury and Elmira, would show up en masse for any league that does not provide that style of hockey. The NAHL is physical, but it is skilled hockey and most of their players end up advancing to play NCAA D1 or very high end D3 hockey. The Fed is a glorified beer league/WWE combination. Not that there is anything wrong with that, there are clearly markets that in enjoy it.

That's true, but the professional (even semi pro) vs amateur is more important. For example if you dropped a legit 5,000 seat arena in Danbury and put an ECHL team there it would thrive and probably outdraw both Hartford and Bridgeport.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

The LNAH doesn't even have that much fighting anymore. I've seen some of the videos of the Fed league fights and I wouldn't even consider most of them fights. They'd be just roughing penalties a few years ago.

The thing is the LNAH was averaging over three fights per game as of 2013. So a drop to one or two fights per game of course is going to be a considerable difference. The NAHL has .2 fights per game. The Fed has well over 1 fight per game. That is a huge drop off, that is less than 1/5 the number of fights. And I would watch some more FPHL fights if you think they are not fights, most of the ones I have seen are two guys dropping mitts and throwing haymakers. Hockeyfights.com would corroborate this.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

That's true, but the professional (even semi pro) vs amateur is more important. For example if you dropped a legit 5,000 seat arena in Danbury and put an ECHL team there it would thrive and probably outdraw both Hartford and Bridgeport.

I would not go anywhere near that far. Danbury is not a very big city, and really isn't much bigger than some bigger suburbs like Hamden and West Hartford. They are not filling up their 3000 seat arena and never have on a regular basis. Adding 2000 seats and pushing the team up from 'low A' to 'AA' is not going to change anything. They have only ever averaged in the low 1000s. That is nowhere near even SPHL levels of support, let alone ECHL levels.

 

[sabremike]

I would not go anywhere near that far. Danbury is not a very big city, and really isn't much bigger than some bigger suburbs like Hamden and West Hartford. They are not filling up their 3000 seat arena and never have on a regular basis. Adding 2000 seats and pushing the team up from 'low A' to 'AA' is not going to change anything. They have only ever averaged in the low 1000s. That is nowhere near even SPHL levels of support, let alone ECHL levels.

In the early days of the FHL Danbury was drawing such big crowds that they were essentially carrying the league before the people running the team screwed up royally and left a real bad taste in people's mouths in their wake. They are still trying to regain the credibility in the market but it's not easy (hiring the guy who burned the market so bad to be the front man of the new team was not a good idea). If you gave fans in this area ECHL (Which is a million times more of a legit and credible league than FPHL) they'd support it. I should know: I was there in the UHL Trashers days and even with the 3k capacity we were in fact regularly outdrawing both AHL teams in the state ( particularly weeknight games. I remember playing on the same night as Bridgeport numerous times where our building would be close to full and I'd see pics of Bridgeport where there were > 1k in the place).

 

[210]

I would not go anywhere near that far. Danbury is not a very big city, and really isn't much bigger than some bigger suburbs like Hamden and West Hartford. They are not filling up their 3000 seat arena and never have on a regular basis. Adding 2000 seats and pushing the team up from 'low A' to 'AA' is not going to change anything. They have only ever averaged in the low 1000s. That is nowhere near even SPHL levels of support, let alone ECHL levels.

According to the numbers on Hockeydb, the lowest the Whalers averaged was 1,648. The Titans were a lot lower. The Hat Tricks don't have anything listed on Hockeydb yet, but the league says it was 1,169.

For non-FHL, the Trashers lowest average was 2,408

 

[Ratitude]

I would not go anywhere near that far. Danbury is not a very big city, and really isn't much bigger than some bigger suburbs like Hamden and West Hartford. They are not filling up their 3000 seat arena and never have on a regular basis. Adding 2000 seats and pushing the team up from 'low A' to 'AA' is not going to change anything. They have only ever averaged in the low 1000s. That is nowhere near even SPHL levels of support, let alone ECHL levels.

While not a large city in itself Danbury certainly draws from a wide area of the region. Hockey in Danbury is essentially the adopted home of what I call displaced or orphaned fans from New Haven lol. To say that they never have filled up the DIA is really not entirely accurate. In the early Trashers days I had the pleasure of attending a few games down that way. Fans traveled from all over, including many others from New York. I always wondered what a return to Trashers hockey in a LNAH hockey might look had the LNAH put a team in Glens Falls NY that they had their eye on. Danbury definitely has a wide geographical footprint to pull from.

 

[mk80]

As someone who lives right next door to Danbury and who once worked for the Trashers I can tell you exactly what will happen: people will go to the FPHL games, nobody will go to the NAHL games. The market will not accept an amateur league (and especially one with no fighting).

Being in that area I don't doubt your knowledge of the local fan base. However, in terms of quality of play I think more fans would enjoy it if they give it a chance. The NAHL has a nice mix of skill teams, and physical teams, I've seen plenty of good fights in the league too.

Not that I am very well plugged in at all, but I heard it was the main reason there wasn't NAHL expansion into Elmira and Danbury, until now. They are two markets that (to put it nicely) prefer the type of hockey that the FPHL provides: a fairly low skill level with plenty of physicality, fighting, and plenty of goals.

The FPHL doesn't have the greatest administration or representation in the broader hockey community, but it does fill a great niche.

That could be an additional assignment, not a change of jobs.

Perhaps, and that's a point I hadn't considered, but to play devils advocate a bit (discounting people declining certain positions in the following scenario): why not give that assignment to your NA3HL coaching staff who put together a 49 point, 2nd place finish in their division (albeit one of the weakest divisions in the league) and who also bring relevant experience to the table Staff

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

Fed's outdrawing the NWHL in Danbury? They're missing some good hockey. I know if Cleveland had an NWHL team, I'd prioritize their games ahead of the Ice Breakers.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Fed's outdrawing the NWHL in Danbury? They're missing some good hockey. I know if Cleveland had an NWHL team, I'd prioritize their games ahead of the Ice Breakers.

FPHL Danbury has higher attendance than the highest drawing NWHL team. Comparing purely skill, they have fairly close skill levels and I would still give the edge to the Fed. And mind you, that’s the best women’s hockey league in the world and 5th tier semi professional hockey.