Is Quebec's berth in the Nationals obsolete?

[Hollywood3]

The RSEQ has never operated a hockey league. Neither has its predecessor, the QSSF. The last time a league operated in Quebec it was called the QUAA, two name changes ago!

It was 1987. It was a four-team league, which included Ottawa.

At one time Quebec had several university teams. Both Ontario and Quebec had teams spread amongst multiple conferences. Up until 1971, Ontario's teams were spread amongst the OSLC (Ottawa-St. Lawrence), OIAA (Ontario Intercollegiate), and QOAA (Quebec-Ontario). Quebec's teams were divided amongst the OSLC and QOAA. Starting in 1971-72 those three conferences were split along provincial lines as the OUAA and QUAA were born. There were occasions where some eastern Ontario teams would join the Q.

At its peak, the Q had 8 teams, with one being Ontario-based. Some former Quebec-based teams are Montreal, Laval, Bishop's, Sherbrooke, and Chicoutimi. By the end of the 1986-87 season the final four gave up and joined the OUA.

Budgets being what they are, it is hard to imagine any new Quebec teams coming about. They only have 3 teams, and it is possible that RMC, Queen's, Carleton, and Ottawa could join as they have in the past.

When the Q joined the O the CIS allowed them to take their berth in the national playoffs with them. They never did this when the GPAC joined the CWUAA, so this was not required. Quebec still operated leagues in other sports so I guess there was always the hope that they would one day return in hockey as well.

27 seasons have since been played. And in every one of those, the OUA was given two berths in the nationals based on their berth "adopted" from the former QUAA. McGill and UQTR have been consistent winners, and have often claimed a berth. However, that "Quebec" berth is also frequently given to an Ontario team.

The problem is that after 27 years, it has become an Ontario expectation that they are entitled to an extra berth. Since the announcement of an 8-team U-Cup, the OUA will get 3 berths and the CWUAA and AUS 2 berths each. The 8th berth goes to the host.

My thought is that Quebec should no longer have their automatic berth. Since it takes time to reorganize things, an announcement should be made that once they get to 30 years in the OUA their berth is gone.

How should the berths be allocated? I would say each conference gets 2 berths, plus one for the host. The last one could be subject to a playoff tournament amongst the semi-final losers from all conferences. Or it could be allocated to the non-host conference with the best accumulative record at the U-Cup over the previous 5 years.

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[WilcoxHound]

There are more teams in the OUA than in both Canada West and Atlantic combined. You will never the get the votes to take the cup berth away.

With your idea to give 2 berths to each division you sound like a politician trying to pull an end run hoping that the Bison's will make it to the U Cup more frequently than just when they or another western team hosts.

 

[Dutch]

4 seeds for 16 teams (Canada West and AUS)
3 seeds for 20 teams (OUA)

I don't see why the OUA would lose that spot. I never even knew that was a Quebec berth.

It's an accepted fact that the OUA has less talent than the other two conferences. I think that the fact that they get one less spot despite having four more teams (3 if Ottawa never comes back) covers that difference.

 

[AdamMcg83]

However, that "Quebec" berth is also frequently given to an Ontario team.

The Quebec berth has been given to an Ontario-Based team just once in the last 17 years - and that Ontario-based team was Ottawa in 2004, which came from the old Quebec league.

 

[Hollywood3]

The Quebec berth has been given to an Ontario-Based team just once in the last 17 years - and that Ontario-based team was Ottawa in 2004, which came from the old Quebec league.

Without the "Quebec berth" the OUA winner would still qualify. The "Quebec berth" allows the OUA runner-up to qualify as well. The runners-up have been:

2014: McGill (would otherwise have been rotating wild-card which instead went to Carleton)
2013: Waterloo
2012: Western Ontario
2011: Western Ontario
2010: Lakehead
2009: McGill
2008: Brock
2007: Laurier
2006: McGill (would otherwise have been rotating wild-card which instead went to Laurier)
2005: UQTR
2004: Ottawa
2003: York
2002: Western Ontario
2001: Western Ontario (would otherwise have been rotating wild-card which instead went to Laurier)
2000: Western Ontario
1999: Windsor (would otherwise have been rotating wild-card which instead went to York)
1998: UQTR
1997: York
1996: UQTR
1995: Guelph
1994: Western Ontario
1993: Guelph
1992: Laurier
1991: Waterloo
1990: UQTR
1989: York
1988: Western Ontario

That's 20 additonal berths for Ontario teams and 7 additional berths for Quebec teams.

To be clear, the CIS only guarantees berths at nationals for conference winners. The size of the conference does not have an impact.

In football, only conferences winners advance to national semi-finals (Bowl games). The AUS has 4 teams and the OUA has 11 teams.

In basketball, there are four conferences and the winners qualify. The other berths go by rankings. The OUA and CWUAA each had 3 berths last year with 1 berth each to the RSEQ and AUS.

In women's hockey, the RSEQ has a league (McGill, Concordia, Montreal, Ottawa, and Carleton). Ontario has 13 teams, the CW has 8, and the AUS has 7. Up to 2014, they had the 4 winners plus a host and a wild-card.

The problem in men's hockey is that there is no rational basis for the OUA to have adopted the berth of the now-defunct QUAA. Since there are more berths than conferences, spots have to be allocated somehow. Now the OUA "double dips", getting both the Quebec berth and one-third of the wild-cards.

We'll see what happens in 2 years when this is re-evaulated. Will they let the OUA get 4 berths when they host?

 

[AUS Fan]

"We'll see what happens in 2 years when this is re-evaulated. Will they let the OUA get 4 berths when they host?"

Timely question. A friend of mine from Thunder Bay (down East for a wedding) was just at my house for a BBQ and we were discussing that very question. Much the same as when T-Bay hosted and the wildcard went to AUS and CW. I can see the CIS change the rule should OUA host again.

 

[UNB Bruins Fan]

"We'll see what happens in 2 years when this is re-evaulated. Will they let the OUA get 4 berths when they host?"

Timely question. A friend of mine from Thunder Bay (down East for a wedding) was just at my house for a BBQ and we were discussing that very question. Much the same as when T-Bay hosted and the wildcard went to AUS and CW. I can see the CIS change the rule should OUA host again.

I can see them changing it as well. This is what I think we will see...

- OUA will always have 3 berths, AUS 2, and CW 2.
- When AUS hosts they get an extra berth, when CW hosts they get an extra berth.
- When OUA hosts the AUS and CW will rotate the extra berth (AUS one year and CW the other...if we continue to see two year hosting cycles...essentially what we seen in TBay).

 

[Hollywood3]

I can see them changing it as well. This is what I think we will see...

- OUA will always have 3 berths, AUS 2, and CW 2.
- When AUS hosts they get an extra berth, when CW hosts they get an extra berth.
- When OUA hosts the AUS and CW will rotate the extra berth (AUS one year and CW the other...if we continue to see two year hosting cycles...essentially what we seen in TBay).

That would seem alright. Although it would be nice to see the 6 semi-final losers face off for the last spot whilst the conference finals are taking place.

Good to hear about Thunder Bay. However, it would be good to hear about a bid from Windsor, Toronto, etc.

 

[MiamiHockey]

That would seem alright. Although it would be nice to see the 6 semi-final losers face off for the last spot whilst the conference finals are taking place.

Good to hear about Thunder Bay. However, it would be good to hear about a bid from Windsor, Toronto, etc.

You'll likely never see a bid from a Toronto school, and Windsor is unlikely as well with the Spitfires competing across town. In fact, it's hard to envision any OUA team bidding, with the exception of Lakehead, because there is simply not the level of fan interest in CIS hockey that you see in the AUS or at the U of Saskatchewan / U of Alberta.

Of course, those of you who want fewer OUA teams in the University Cup should take solace in that fact, because it means the OUA will have fewer Host Team berths over time.

 

[Hollywood3]

You'll likely never see a bid from a Toronto school, and Windsor is unlikely as well with the Spitfires competing across town. In fact, it's hard to envision any OUA team bidding, with the exception of Lakehead, because there is simply not the level of fan interest in CIS hockey that you see in the AUS or at the U of Saskatchewan / U of Alberta.

Of course, those of you who want fewer OUA teams in the University Cup should take solace in that fact, because it means the OUA will have fewer Host Team berths over time.

Ryerson had a bid last season.

 

[AUS Fan]

Ryerson had a 1 year bid for hockey and a 1 year bid for B-Ball. Won't happen....

 

[Hollywood3]

Ryerson had a 1 year bid for hockey and a 1 year bid for B-Ball. Won't happen....

Their basketball bid was successful!

IMO it would be nice to have the hockey at the former Maple Leaf Gardens.

 

[MiamiHockey]

Their basketball bid was successful!

IMO it would be nice to have the hockey at the former Maple Leaf Gardens.

Ryerson has, hands down, the best arena in the CIS ... and it would perfect for the University Cup, except for that fact that attendance would be pretty low.

I'm surprised to learn that Ryerson bid for it, given the treatment they've traditionally given to their hockey program.

 

[Hollywood3]

Ryerson has, hands down, the best arena in the CIS ... and it would perfect for the University Cup, except for that fact that attendance would be pretty low.

I'm surprised to learn that Ryerson bid for it, given the treatment they've traditionally given to their hockey program.

Their bid was different from the rest. The rest sought to host in two-year periods, as has become custom. Ryerson bid one year for basketball and one year for hockey. The problem with hockey was that there was a joint bid from SFX and SMU in Halifax where each would host once. That bid could not be severed. I suspect Ryerson will soon be a host, either by going for two years or finding a partner for the other year in the set.

Acadia and UPEI also bid for 2015 and 2016.

http://english.cis-sic.ca/sports/cis_news/2013-14/releases/20130927-cis

 

[WilcoxHound]

Great fan support for Nipissing in North Bay. Hey Dutch: Do you think Trois Rivieres could host a UCup?

 

[11111]

Their bid was different from the rest. The rest sought to host in two-year periods, as has become custom. Ryerson bid one year for basketball and one year for hockey. The problem with hockey was that there was a joint bid from SFX and SMU in Halifax where each would host once. That bid could not be severed. I suspect Ryerson will soon be a host, either by going for two years or finding a partner for the other year in the set.

Acadia and UPEI also bid for 2015 and 2016.

http://english.cis-sic.ca/sports/cis_news/2013-14/releases/20130927-cis

Speaking as a Ryerson alum and a member of the Rams broadcast team for the last few years, I can tell you the basketball and hockey bids didn't have too much to do with each other. Ryerson bid for hockey for only 2016 because of where the team was at. Coming off 8th place in the east and a first round exit at this time last year, there was no way they could guarantee that by 2015 they'd be on the verge of an OUA title. But 2016 on the other hand, was more realistic for them to be competing at that level, and I think after watching this past season unfold we can all see they're now on their way there.

As for attendance, I'm not so sure it would be a complete failure. Sure, games not involving the Rams will be a tough sell, but if the student nights the athletic department have put on are any indication, I'm willing to bet they could get a great crowd. In the past, those nights have been heavily promoted for a couple weeks prior and have had $3 beers - and usually the MAC has been 80-85% full with a real great atmosphere.

The partnership idea is interesting - I do wonder if the Rams and their bitter rival from Varsity Arena would ever consider it for a future bid.

 

[Hollywood3]

Speaking as a Ryerson alum and a member of the Rams broadcast team for the last few years, I can tell you the basketball and hockey bids didn't have too much to do with each other. Ryerson bid for hockey for only 2016 because of where the team was at. Coming off 8th place in the east and a first round exit at this time last year, there was no way they could guarantee that by 2015 they'd be on the verge of an OUA title. But 2016 on the other hand, was more realistic for them to be competing at that level, and I think after watching this past season unfold we can all see they're now on their way there.

As for attendance, I'm not so sure it would be a complete failure. Sure, games not involving the Rams will be a tough sell, but if the student nights the athletic department have put on are any indication, I'm willing to bet they could get a great crowd. In the past, those nights have been heavily promoted for a couple weeks prior and have had $3 beers - and usually the MAC has been 80-85% full with a real great atmosphere.

The partnership idea is interesting - I do wonder if the Rams and their bitter rival from Varsity Arena would ever consider it for a future bid.

For a "partner" it need not be somebody local. Anybody happy to host for one year would do. I know Regina put forth a bid when Saskatoon won. Maybe since they are also a "Tier II" program, the CIS would be happy for them to host once and Ryerson once.

 

[AUS Fan]

Problem is, you can't do "student nights" at the Nationals. You need to sell $20 tickets for each and every game to cover expenses. Looking at past events I've been at, the crowds have been in the 3000 - 4000 range. Alberta and Sask were higher than that. The exception was both years in Kitchener. Can't see that happening in Toronto.

 

[11111]

Problem is, you can't do "student nights" at the Nationals. You need to sell $20 tickets for each and every game to cover expenses. Looking at past events I've been at, the crowds have been in the 3000 - 4000 range. Alberta and Sask were higher than that. The exception was both years in Kitchener. Can't see that happening in Toronto.

I should probably clarify what I meant by student nights - the primary promotion for getting students to pack the rink was the $3 beers, not discounted or free tickets. Tickets to all Ryerson home games have always been free for students by showing your student card. But we'll see how the CIS basketball tournament goes next spring and perhaps if successful, they'll bid again for hockey.

 

[Hollywood3]

I should probably clarify what I meant by student nights - the primary promotion for getting students to pack the rink was the $3 beers, not discounted or free tickets. Tickets to all Ryerson home games have always been free for students by showing your student card. But we'll see how the CIS basketball tournament goes next spring and perhaps if successful, they'll bid again for hockey.

That would be nice.

How is Ryerson perceived in the local community? Is it a "weak sister" to York and U of T?

 

[MiamiHockey]

That would be nice.

How is Ryerson perceived in the local community? Is it a "weak sister" to York and U of T?

Most certainly not. In fact, academically, York is the weakest of the three.

Toronto is, by most measures, the top university in Canada. UBC and McGill are trying to compete to be the top comprehensive university, and Alberta and Western are not far behind, but Toronto is the best.

Ryerson is an excellent school, but it has traditionally been very specialized. For instance, its Journalism program is far and away the best in Canada.

York is large, and has some fine programs (e.g., the Schulich School of Business), but in Ontario it's clearly behind Queen's, McMaster, and Waterloo, and arguably behind Ottawa and Guelph depending on the program of interest.

 

[Dutch]

Great fan support for Nipissing in North Bay. Hey Dutch: Do you think Trois Rivieres could host a UCup?

Not gonna happen, University hockey doesn't fly in Trois-Rivières, with crowds at around 400 per games.

They hosted one in 1985 I think... total disaster attendance wise.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Drift

This has drifted a long way from the original topic.

Either get the discussion back on the tracks or a distinct thread about the qualities required for hosting the CIS Nationals will be started.

 

[Drummer]

Not really 'Quebec'

I don't see it as a Quebec Entry. We call it the a Quebec entry because it seems McGill or UQTR are always getting it.

It's the OUA-East Entry - which is one(1) of 10 teams (2 teams larger than the AUS or CW) and only 3 of these teams are in Quebec.

So, they are actually under-represented when you look at it (10 teams only getting 1 guaranteed entry while the 8-team AUS and CW getting 2).

If, and it's a big 'IF', the OUA was to find 1 more team, they would be at three groups of 7 (East, West and Central) - then how do you decided who gets a ticket? Why should and 8-team conference get 2 while a 7-team conference gets 1.

Don't get me wrong - I like the current approach (clean and easy) and you always need a host. Maybe - they should block the AUS/CW conference from having a wild-card in the years they host - that extra ticket could go to the OUA to give them 4 - 2+2.

 

[Hollywood3]

I don't see it as a Quebec Entry. We call it the a Quebec entry because it seems McGill or UQTR are always getting it.

It's the OUA-East Entry - which is one(1) of 10 teams (2 teams larger than the AUS or CW) and only 3 of these teams are in Quebec.

So, they are actually under-represented when you look at it (10 teams only getting 1 guaranteed entry while the 8-team AUS and CW getting 2).

If, and it's a big 'IF', the OUA was to find 1 more team, they would be at three groups of 7 (East, West and Central) - then how do you decided who gets a ticket? Why should and 8-team conference get 2 while a 7-team conference gets 1.

Don't get me wrong - I like the current approach (clean and easy) and you always need a host. Maybe - they should block the AUS/CW conference from having a wild-card in the years they host - that extra ticket could go to the OUA to give them 4 - 2+2.

They don't give berths to divisions within a conference.

There might be some merit to using number of teams in a conference as a measure of berths to be allocated. However, that is not used with other sports. Also, due to the existence of the BCIHL and ACAC, lots of "second tier" teams in the west do not play in the CW the way they have to in the OUA.

The problem, as pointed out in your opening sentence, is that since it has been 27 years it is no longer looked upon as a Quebec entry. Ontario has grown used to an extra berth. Hence, my point that the Quebec berth is obsolete.

If Quebec has no intentions of re-starting its league then the CIS should be allocating that berth to either a playoff winner or developing a selection process as in basketball and volleyball. I suspect that the criteria would be affected but not determined by the number of teams. The strength of conference and performance at nationals would also be of relevance.