Is Kenny just done as a GM? Or is he tanking the team?

[sean3250]

I've come to the realization that we are the Vancouver Canucks of the Eastern conference, minus a potential franchise D which Vancouver may have just drafted 5th.

Holland and Benning are both terrible GM's. Both just signed guys over 30 to 6 years contracts. They have the Sedins. We have/had D&Z. Both teams are on the decline, and won't 100% commit to the rebuild. Both have no current #1D. I'm telling ya, the parallels between teams is striking. And unfortunately, Vancouver (and Calgary who we also resemble) is not a team I want to be emulating.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I've come to the realization that we are the Vancouver Canucks of the Eastern conference, minus a potential franchise D which Vancouver may have just drafted 5th.

Holland and Benning are both terrible GM's. Both just signed guys over 30 to 6 years contracts. They have the Sedins. We have/had D&Z. Both teams are on the decline, and won't 100% commit to the rebuild. Both have no current #1D. I'm telling ya, the parallels between teams is striking. And unfortunately, Vancouver (and Calgary who we also resemble) is not a team I want to be emulating.

Except we make the playoffs and we still have significantly better young talent than them.

 

[sean3250]

Except we make the playoffs and we still have significantly better young talent than them.

We have Larkin and Mrazek. That's about it for young talent. Mantha, Svech, and to a lesser extent AA(whom I think is going to be legit) have not proven anything at the NHL level or pro level on Svech's part. Our best D prospect is Russo who was drafted and developed by another team.

Vancouver has Tanev, Juolevi and Horvat. Tanev is instantly our best D. Horvat is 20 and eclipsed 40 points this year. Hutton is pretty good.

I'd say we are pretty even in terms of talent. We may have some better middle 6 wingers like Nyquist/Tatar but they actually know how to develop defenseman better than we have lately looking at Tanev, Edler and Hutton.

I think my comparison stands.

 

[Pavels Dog]

We have Larkin and Mrazek. That's about it for young talent. Mantha, Svech, and to a lesser extent AA(whom I think is going to be legit) have not proven anything at the NHL level or pro level on Svech's part. Our best D prospect is Russo who was drafted and developed by another team.

Vancouver has Tanev, Juolevi and Horvat. Tanev is instantly our best D. Horvat is 20 and eclipsed 40 points this year. Hutton is pretty good. Vancouver fans are high on Shinkaruk, who had a better season this year than Mantha btw.

I'd say we are pretty even in terms of talent. We may have some better middle 6 wingers like Nyquist/Tatar but they actually know how to develop defenseman better than we have lately looking at Tanev, Edler and Hutton.

I think my comparison stands.

Wasn't Shinkaruk traded? I personally think we are way beyond Vancouver both in young, established talent and in terms of what's coming up, especially on the forward side and goaltending. Tanev/Hutton/Juolevi is basically what they have going for them. Horvat is solid but doesn't look like someone to build around.

 

[Frk It]

We have Larkin and Mrazek. That's about it for young talent. Mantha, Svech, and to a lesser extent AA(whom I think is going to be legit) have not proven anything at the NHL level or pro level on Svech's part. Our best D prospect is Russo who was drafted and developed by another team.

Vancouver has Tanev, Juolevi and Horvat. Tanev is instantly our best D. Horvat is 20 and eclipsed 40 points this year. Hutton is pretty good. Vancouver fans are high on Shinkaruk, who had a better season this year than Mantha btw.

I'd say we are pretty even in terms of talent. We may have some better middle 6 wingers like Nyquist/Tatar but they actually know how to develop defenseman better than we have lately looking at Tanev, Edler and Hutton.

I think my comparison stands.

Outside of Juolevi, there's not really much to be envious about, and I don't think his ceiling is nearly as good as what you would usually get with the first defenseman in the draft.

They traded Shinkaruk, and also McCann who I liked a lot.

That team is ran way worse than ours. They should have much better young talent, considering they had top 10 picks in 3 of the last 4 drafts, and they still don't.

 

[sean3250]

Wasn't Shinkaruk traded? I personally think we are way beyond Vancouver both in young, established talent and in terms of what's coming up, especially on the forward side and goaltending. Tanev/Hutton/Juolevi is basically what they have going for them. Horvat is solid but doesn't look like someone to build around.

Shinkaruk was traded, totally forgot about that. My mistake. Horvat looks like he can be a Top6 C. Tanev is top pairing, and Juolevi has #1 potential. Hutton has Top4, if he isn't already a #4.

We have a potential 1C. A potential elite goalie and some 2nd/3rd line wingers. And maybe one or two potential top 4 guys, with no top pairing D guys.

If Juolevi becomes a #1, Vancouver gets the nod considering they'd have two young top pairing guys. None of us have any elite young players. People who put emphasis on D, might want the team with a top pairing guy, and a potential #1.

Outside of Juolevi, there's not really much to be envious about, and I don't think his ceiling is nearly as good as what you would usually get with the first defenseman in the draft.

They traded Shinkaruk, and also McCann who I liked a lot.

That team is ran way worse than ours. They should have much better young talent, considering they had top 10 picks in 3 of the last 4 drafts, and they still don't.

Forgot they traded Shink. My mistake. Not sure why you aren't a fan of Juolevi. If he was on Detroit he'd be everyone's savior. He'd be penciled in as our future franchise D from day one. Vancouver is currently run worse than Detroit is, but with all of these terrible contracts, terrible roster management, and lack of trades, Holland is clearly trending in that direction.

 

[Frk It]

Forgot they traded Shink. My mistake. Not sure why you aren't a fan of Juolevi. If he was on Detroit he'd be everyone's savior. He'd be penciled in as our future franchise D from day one. Vancouver is currently run worse than Detroit is, but with all of these terrible contracts, terrible roster management, and lack of trades, Holland is clearly trending in that direction.

It's not that I'm not a fan of Juolevi. I just don't think it was the strongest year for defenseman, which is kind of reflected where you saw them taken compared to other years.

I'd be very happy with Juolevi in our prospect pool. A lot of others would too, but some on here don't really have their own opinions on prospects, they just hope Holland picks the right one. I liked Sergachev the best out of defenseman in this draft (in the long run), followed by Chychrun, but Chychrun and Juolevi are like a coin flip for me. I think Juolevi's numbers and status were somewhat inflated from playing on a stacked team. Think he will be like a better skating version of Maatta though, which is still a heck of a player.

 

[14ari13]

Gotcha I didn't realize going to the finals didn't count for anything

He might have done a very good or even great job, yet a realgud/great GM is the one that handles the team well after winning the cup.

 

[SoupNazi]

While we do not officially know that these are the goals of the franchise, if that were made official, I'd be happy to lead a demonstration asking Illitch to sell the team and boycott it until he did so.

But we don't know. All we know is what the organization makes public. Much of which is made public by Ken Holland, including things like, "We like our team." So when he's essentially the face of the front office these days, he's the biggest target of any criticism that people have about the direction the franchise is going in.

But here's to hoping that they miss the playoffs, and there's one less crutch for anybody to cling to.

Aren't you already boycotting the team?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Wow, we sure are moving the goalposts to suits agendas

Kh is great gm because of x, y and z but if he makes bad decisions he is just a puppet

I never geard of anyone calling ken holland a puppet by anyone before

New low for excuses..

 

[Shaman464]

All I want is a top pairing dman. That's it. I would put anyone on the roster sans Larkin, AA, and Mrazek with whatever picks were required on the table to get a Trouba, Fowler, Shatenkirk.

I don't know how this is even a debate without having anything close to resembling a top pairing, young defenseman. This is just my opinion of course, and I know a lot of people on here will disagree - and that's fine. But until he grows a sack and makes a move for even a potential top pairing d I don't think there is a debate. It's been our most glaring deficiency since the departure of Lidstrom, and I know Lidstrom can and never will be replaced, but cmon man. At least make it look like you're trying.

Meh, trading Nyquist+AA+Pick for a top pairing young d-man would be a major win for Detroit.

 

[jkutswings]

Aren't you already boycotting the team?

Mostly. I cut the cord on cable 3 years ago, partly because I didn't think the team was worth watching anymore. I still keep up on results and commentary via other outlets here and there, and of course I watch the off season moves closely.

But I'd think that signing petitions and publicly advocating for the sale of the franchise would be another level altogether.

 

[Retire91]

Except he was gifted a team. The guy joined the team when St Louis and Lecavier were still good and he had a #1 C and #1 D to build a future around. They made a huge playoff run right off the bat before he had much real impact. That's like the definition of being gifted a team.

Give Holland Stamkos and Hedman and we would be in the ECF every year. It's much easier when u have a core already put together to build around.

I'd argue Nill has had a bigger challenge than Yzerman and his record is more impressive in my mind.

No one is refuting that Yzerman had some gems taking over that job what they are arguing is that Yzerman would have done a better job over this course than Holland has done if Yzerman were the GM for the wings. He has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is expert at drafting, free agents, contracts, and trades. All of which have been failures on Holland's part over the same course. They are actually completely diametrically opposite in their abilities and the comparison is clear even when comparing apples to oranges. Yzerman pure win, Holland pure fail. The only thing that can come to Holland in his defense is that he was forced into the moves he made by management. If that is true then Holland has 0 power as the GM and this is all on management but its still fair to make Holland the wiping boy. Its his job to answer the tough questions.

People keep arguing that we are in some kind of tank camp and its not that simplified. People just want to see a clear strategy and then be good at executing it. Holland has failed at drafting, signing, and trading to the point where a perennial contender has been reduced to barely a pretender.

To heck with tanking, just do something well. Larking and Mrazek are outstanding finds but they don't make up for the mile long list of mistakes and purely bad moves that mean a future solidified in struggling to compete.

He might have done a very good or even great job, yet a realgud/great GM is the one that handles the team well after winning the cup.

Exactly what Holland hasn't done. This team slid downhill slowly but the moves made over the last several seasons have been like a drowning man flailing his arms. Thank goodness for cap problems so we still had our picks instead of 35+ year old rentals last season. We almost had the cap problems to avoid this offseason's mess but instead he found the space by "surprise!!" trading down in the draft

 

[Bench]

Mostly. I cut the cord on cable 3 years ago, partly because I didn't think the team was worth watching anymore. I still keep up on results and commentary via other outlets here and there, and of course I watch the off season moves closely.

But I'd think that signing petitions and publicly advocating for the sale of the franchise would be another level altogether.

The franchise isn't going to listen until season ticket holders bail. That's the big measuring stick.

 

[Henkka]

No one is refuting that Yzerman had some gems taking over that job what they are arguing is that Yzerman would have done a better job over this course than Holland has done if Yzerman were the GM for the wings. He has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is expert at drafting, free agents, contracts, and trades. All of which have been failures on Holland's part over the same course. They are actually completely diametrically opposite in their abilities and the comparison is clear even when comparing apples to oranges. Yzerman pure win, Holland pure fail. The only thing that can come to Holland in his defense is that he was forced into the moves he made by management. If that is true then Holland has 0 power as the GM and this is all on management but its still fair to make Holland the wiping boy. Its his job to answer the tough questions.

People keep arguing that we are in some kind of tank camp and its not that simplified. People just want to see a clear strategy and then be good at executing it. Holland has failed at drafting, signing, and trading to the point where a perennial contender has been reduced to barely a pretender.

To heck with tanking, just do something well. Larking and Mrazek are outstanding finds but they don't make up for the mile long list of mistakes and purely bad moves that mean a future solidified in struggling to compete.



Exactly what Holland hasn't done. This team slid downhill slowly but the moves made over the last several seasons have been like a drowning man flailing his arms. Thank goodness for cap problems so we still had our picks instead of 35+ year old rentals last season. We almost had the cap problems to avoid this offseason's mess but instead he found the space by "surprise!!" trading down in the draft

Kind of irony that Holland is the only GM who has rebuilded a tanking Cup winner to win 3 more Cups.

 

[jkutswings]

The franchise isn't going to listen until season ticket holders bail. That's the big measuring stick.

Which is unfortunate in terms of timing, since the new arena likely buys them at least another year or two, no matter how awful the roster gets. But so be it.

 

[sean3250]

The franchise isn't going to listen until season ticket holders bail. That's the big measuring stick.

Never gonna happen. That is why Ilitch is content just making the playoffs every year. Sell the fans on the streak and "sustained success", top that off with being an Original 6 team and you'll always have enough fans in the stands.

 

[jkutswings]

Kind of irony that Holland is the only GM who has rebuilded a tanking Cup winner to win 3 more Cups.

Not even a wink can justify that stretch of logic.

The changes from 97 to 98 were losing Vladdy and moving Osgood from backup to starter. Not exactly a rebuild.

The 2002 roster was the biggest reload of the modern era, but 1) I wouldn't call that rebuilding, and 2) it's not like that strategy can ever happen again, so it's no longer worth much as a template going forward.

2008, sure. But that's ONE rebuild, not 3, and it mostly consisted of hitting big on two forwards, and getting a decent defenseman to go with them (while still having Lidstrom). So we can expect things to improve once they find another Larkin-esque forward and a top pairing defenseman.

 

[Winger98]

Not even a wink can justify that stretch of logic.

The changes from 97 to 98 were losing Vladdy and moving Osgood from backup to starter. Not exactly a rebuild.

The 2002 roster was the biggest reload of the modern era, but 1) I wouldn't call that rebuilding, and 2) it's not like that strategy can ever happen again, so it's no longer worth much as a template going forward.

2008, sure. But that's ONE rebuild, not 3, and it mostly consisted of hitting big on two forwards, and getting a decent defenseman to go with them (while still having Lidstrom). So we can expect things to improve once they find another Larkin-esque forward and a top pairing defenseman.

I think Holland deserves more credit than you're giving him for 2008. He had to dump half the team's salary coming out of the lockout, and he quickly retooled and put together a cup winner. What's frustrating is that he didn't seem to learn from it that you could replace the depth of a team pretty quickly and cheaply.

 

[AD1066]

I think Holland deserves more credit than you're giving him for 2008. He had to dump half the team's salary coming out of the lockout, and he quickly retooled and put together a cup winner. What's frustrating is that he didn't seem to learn from it that you could replace the depth of a team pretty quickly and cheaply.

Not only has he experienced it firsthand, but we've recently seen the Hawks do the same thing en route to winning 3 Cups.

Granted, Bickell was a mistake, but for the most part they aren't shy about walking away from depth players who become overvalued by the market, and replacing them with other young, cheap guys.

Contrast that with Holland's absurd loyalty to someone like Cleary when he was well beyond his effectiveness as a player. Or giving an injury-prone, declining Helm another five years. Those aren't the moves a winning organization makes.

 

[Heaton]

I think Holland deserves more credit than you're giving him for 2008. He had to dump half the team's salary coming out of the lockout, and he quickly retooled and put together a cup winner. What's frustrating is that he didn't seem to learn from it that you could replace the depth of a team pretty quickly and cheaply.

We need another lockout to drop the salary cap by 30m to get Holland out of this mess.

 

[jkutswings]

I think Holland deserves more credit than you're giving him for 2008. He had to dump half the team's salary coming out of the lockout, and he quickly retooled and put together a cup winner. What's frustrating is that he didn't seem to learn from it that you could replace the depth of a team pretty quickly and cheaply.

Sorry, it came off more cavalier than I intended. I just meant to underscore the importance of those draft picks (and that claiming 3 rebuilds was ridiculous).

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not only has he experienced it firsthand, but we've recently seen the Hawks do the same thing en route to winning 3 Cups.

Granted, Bickell was a mistake, but for the most part they aren't shy about walking away from depth players who become overvalued by the market, and replacing them with other young, cheap guys.

Contrast that with Holland's absurd loyalty to someone like Cleary when he was well beyond his effectiveness as a player. Or giving an injury-prone, declining Helm another five years. Those aren't the moves a winning organization makes.

You can not, I repeat, you can not compare a team re-tooling around star players in their prime compared to a team re-tooling around aging star players and preparing to transition to a new core.

Wings did just fine in the 90s and 00s at re-tooling around their prime core, and they were even able to replace most of the core smoothly due to having a guy like Lidstrom bridging the gap. Chicago has yet to really be forced to replace ANY of their core players, they're still operating with the same core much like Detroit was between 97-02.

How competitive will Chicago be now that Kane and Toews earn 10 million each and Hossa is fading? Keith and Seabrook are getting older and sooner or later they'll decline. They're coming up on the time when they can't simply throw away any depth players because their core is better than everyone elses. They may already be there. With Hossa declining their forward group is not as imposing anymore, and they only have 1 more year of Panarin being on a steal contract.

Lets see if Chicago makes the hard decision people think Holland should have done. Best thing for Chicago currently would be to get rid of Hossa/Keith/Seabrook and tank the team in order to re-stock on young talent to get another period of contending with Toews and Kane.

 

[Winger98]

We need another lockout to drop the salary cap by 30m to get Holland out of this mess.

or three or four more expansion teams so that eventually their might be enough to take at least a couple of our bad contracts.

Sorry, it came off more cavalier than I intended. I just meant to underscore the importance of those draft picks (and that claiming 3 rebuilds was ridiculous).

Yeah, I don't see the other two ""rebuilds" either. I really don't get how Holland didn't learn he can turn over the support players on this team, though. On top of that he claims to follow the Patriots, and they wouldn't hang onto guys like Helm, either. It's the exact opposite of what they'd do.

 

[AD1066]

You can not, I repeat, you can not compare a team re-tooling around star players in their prime compared to a team re-tooling around aging star players and preparing to transition to a new core.

Wings did just fine in the 90s and 00s at re-tooling around their prime core, and they were even able to replace most of the core smoothly due to having a guy like Lidstrom bridging the gap. Chicago has yet to really be forced to replace ANY of their core players, they're still operating with the same core much like Detroit was between 97-02.

How competitive will Chicago be now that Kane and Toews earn 10 million each and Hossa is fading? Keith and Seabrook are getting older and sooner or later they'll decline. They're coming up on the time when they can't simply throw away any depth players because their core is better than everyone elses. They may already be there. With Hossa declining their forward group is not as imposing anymore, and they only have 1 more year of Panarin being on a steal contract.

Lets see if Chicago makes the hard decision people think Holland should have done. Best thing for Chicago currently would be to get rid of Hossa/Keith/Seabrook and tank the team in order to re-stock on young talent to get another period of contending with Toews and Kane.

Good point, and I'm as happy as anyone to see the wheels beginning to fall off in Chicago.

Obviously we are in different situations at present, but regardless of the state of our core or our status as contenders I don't see any circumstances in which overpaying for bottom-six, injury-prone players is good management. During the transition to a new core, which we still have yet to identify, I'd still rather allocate that money/ice time to a guy like AA or Mantha.