Interesting Info: Part XV (All Jackets-related "tidbits" in here)

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Forepar

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Nov 6, 2011
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I'm not going to get into a big discussion about it, but, again, the Horton situation is very easy to judge - but there were a lot of factors involved. Decisions don't have to be 'bad' to not work out. Sometimes very sound decisions don't have the desired outcome. It's easy and apparently a lot of fun to criticize the Horton situation from afar with a limited amount of information, but I can't help but wonder how much differently people would feel if they either considered the complex situation a little more carefully.

Ultimately, the whole thing was unfortunate, of course. There's no denying that. The idea though, that the CBJ management, lawyers and so forth are all morons is difficult for me to grasp. Insurance of any kind is about risk and educated guesses. There are also limitations placed by the insurance process.

Did someone make the 'wrong' decision? In hindsight, I guess - but given the same information, odds and probabilities, it's doubtful to me that they'd do anything differently given the facts and restrictions they had to consider.

I agree with you that there is information that drove the decision that we posters won't ever have.

My understanding is that Horton's back problems arose BEFORE the window to insure for year 2 even opened (the back arose after the season ended during non-hockey workouts). CBJ could have insured him for year 1, with the exceptions for the shoulder, etc...), but there was little to insure since he wasn't going to be playing until late in season 1, and the exceptions to coverage for the most part would have swallowed the effective coverage. Some would have insured Horton in year 1 anyway, to avoid exactly what happened. Others would have rolled the dice a bit for year 1, given the unlikely event of a different injury to a different body part before they could get him insured, and used that insurance on a different player (as the Jackets presumably did).

Under the contract insurance offered by the league (at least as of 3 years ago), each team pays a premium based on the salaries of its five highest-paid players, but is free to allocate that coverage how it wishes (90% of salary is typically covered on any one contract). Further, the length of term covered by the insurance is limited to 5 years. NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly has said that "typically, a team will extend coverage to as many as seven players," meaning that the teams find ways of covering more than the top 5 salaries by insuring less than 90% of the salary). Insurance coverage kicks in when a player misses 30 or more games due to same injury. The cost of insuring a player under the league program costs about 5% of his salary. However, once you get beyond the league-provided coverage, the premiums to insure any one individual player beyond the league covereage skyrocket (purportedly 25%, but can't find a source). Hurricane's GM has stated that while he wished it was easier to get each player insured, he acknowledged that the 'Cane's couldn't afford to do that. Which begs this question - can the Toronto's of the NHL afford to cover every player, or at least every player not on an ELC, but this issue confronts smaller budget teams like Carolina (and CBJ?).
While individual teams are free to pursue additional coverage, the heavy premiums make it a losing proposition from a cost/benefit/risk analysis. Per the Canes GM - "Seeking private insurance to cover a longer deal is prohibitively expensive."
http://insurancenewsnet.com/article....7b000000c1027a


So for example assume that the top 5 contracts in 2013 for CBJ amounted to
$20M annually. The premim cost for the league-provided coverage would be approximately $1M based on the above. CBJ could have allocated that $20M across as many players as it wanted, and in less than full amounts, so as to spread the coverage beyond 5 players in a manner that made sense to the FO. The length of a contract term that is insurable is also limited to a 5 year term. Because of lower salaries and shorter terms, it apears to make little sense to insure a young player on an ELC. It is under this scenario that CBJ presumably decided to omit Horton from coverage - they presumably insured other veterans using the amount of insurance available because of Horton's salary (e.g. Dubi, Foligno, Bob, Wiz, JJ, Tyutin, etc...), thinking that if Horton ever went down permanently it would be due to the shoulder problem, which would have been excluded from coverage regardless of when it happened. Relatedly, because of the shoulder being uninsurable, the risk that some other insurable injury occuring that would end his career was low. In addition, the coverage on Horton would have been limited to 5 years - any amounts owed beyond 5 years would have fallen on CBJ 100% regardless of whether Horton was put on the league's disability policy or not. The cost of insuring Horton separately outside the league plan may have been 20-25%. At those supplemental insurance costs, you would be gambling that out of 4-5 players, 1 of them (statistically) will suffer a COVERED career-ending injury in order for supplemental insurance to make economic sense. There simply haven't been enough covered career ending injuries to make that bet worthwhile. The ratio is probably 1 career-ending injury for every 50 players, so other than the large-market/large revenue teams, the NHL teams typically stick to the league-required program. Thus, the greater INSURABLE risk (from an actuarial perspective) was to other players who were going to play the entirety of the 2013-14 season and subject themselves to potential injuries that were in fact coverable - so the CBJ used its mandatory coverage on those other players.

To me, the insurance decision seems very defensible - business savy even.

What I don't know is whether the CBA and the free agent market in 2013 made giving Horton a 7-year deal in 2013 a smart move because only 5 years would have been covered even if he had been insured/insurable. But in looking at other long-term contracts around the NHL, many teams do just that (Crosby, Kane, Toews, etc.). It may be that a 7-year term is what it took to get a player of Horton's caliber to sign with CBJ (big-market teams were offering that). The guarantied contract in the NHL is what makes term almost as important as the annual salary. It also is somewhat unique to our American sports world that is programmed to see many players cut from NFL teams all summer long, and with only the proven stars with guarantied money (and many of those partially guarantied).. The NHL teams with contract terms longer than 5 years are either 100% on the hook for those excess years, or have enough revenue to purchase additional disability insurance (at 20-25%) or have enough revenue to in effect self-insure such circumstances (although they can't get insurance for something like Crosby's concussion syndrome). Maybe this is the unspoken larger reason why small market teams struggle with getting the big FA signings or trades - or in retaining bigtime stars. Admittedly high-end talent strains the salary cap. But the cap isn't a huge issue for teams like CBJ (yet). The annual salary is doable as long as the player is playing. But smaller-budget teams can't afford the risk of a Horton situation blowing up in their face - they can't afford to pay the injured player AND replace him with a similarly talented veteran player, they can't afford the supplemental insurance to cover beyond the 5 year term limit, they have to use a large portion of their allocable NHL disability insurance on that one player (assuming that all body parts are in fact insurable). Even if Horton had been insured, CBJ would have been on the hook for 10% of first 5 years, and 100% of any years beyond 5. That's a bit hit to a smaller market team like CBJ whose year-to-year profitability is based in large part on ticket sale fluctuations and playoff revenues, as opposed to larger established market teams who have essentially guarantied full houses 41 nights a year, large local TV contracts, and cash stashed from prior years, etc....

CBJ gambled by signing Horton in the first place; had it worked, FO would be lauded for having foresight to commit to a stud FA long-term and to pry him away from big-market team like Bruins (or others who were pursuing him - thought most thought he would stay with Bruins). The gamble FO could see was whether his shoulder would mend and stay healthy enough for him to play. They had medical opinions that the shoulder would be fine, so they rolled the dice. The back issues arose in a short gap period after year 1 and before year 2 insurance could be decided. Vegas won that bet. Had a monied team made this gamble, no one would have blinked because the $5M+ per year would have meant little. It means a lot to a budget-concious team like CBJ - as in $5M+ from a bottom line that is already thin. Toronto proves that theory by being able to afford to pay Horton not to play and not to count against their cap, and to ship us Clarkson not because of cash flow but because his play was dead in the water in Toronto and they get to replace Clarkson with whomever they can fit under the cap. And NO ONE but CBJ would have taken Clarkson (it was a good move under bad circumstances). Toronto is a cap team with excess cash beyond the cap. Several other teams fit that description. CBJ does not - partly why some of us love them so much.

Given these circumstances, the question is whether CBJ is in a position to make a Horton-type bet in the future. If it's a star with a 3-5 year window, that may be doable, as the player isn't looking for term beyond 5, and CBJ insures it. But if you are looking at the blockbuster pickup of a player for the next 7-10 years (which is how the Horton deal was viewed around the league, in terms of talent, leadership and off-ice poise), that may be a gamble that CBJ can't make again. While the risk may be low of getting burned, if you do get burned, it's 5-alarm fire.

However, the reason I started to post was just to laugh/speculate that the next time a similar situation arises, I'd bet that the FO takes the more conservative approach and insures over it, even if it has to purchase insurance outside what the league offers, just to keep HF off its tail. :laugh: Then I started analyzing (again).
Ultimately the FO won't put great weight on what the fanbase thinks about the Horton situation, but it does affect the FO somewhat - they are human and want to avoid repeating a mistake, and want to salve wounds that could have cost them some goodwill (a few season tickets). They will look at such a deal, but gunshy might be the descriptive phrase.

EDIT - Sorry, I got bored!
 
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blahblah

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Nov 24, 2005
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Zito wasn't here for that and I don't think McFarland handled this stuff so probably Jarmo.

Zito was certainly here for the fiasco of the Horton situation. The actual signing, no - but the fiasco part? Yes.

As far as Super Genius's comments; leaving your top contract uninsured it moronic - especially if the name of your team doesn't contain a really large city. That was a financial decision, for all we know it was someone on JD's team that was responsible for that decision.
 

DarkandStormy

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Apr 29, 2014
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Zito was certainly here for the fiasco of the Horton situation. The actual signing, no - but the fiasco part? Yes.

As far as Super Genius's comments; leaving your top contract uninsured it moronic - especially if the name of your team doesn't contain a really large city. That was a financial decision, for all we know it was someone on JD's team that was responsible for that decision.

Wasn't Zito an agent until joining the CBJ in AUGUST of 2013?
 

CBJWerenski8

Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
Jun 13, 2009
42,355
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Ah, understood. But the key question there is when do those insurance decisions need to be made? Is there a deadline?

I believe I read from the Dispatch that they could have insured anything but Horton's shoulder when he signed here, and then they could have insured the shoulder when he came back from injury from it in JAnuary of 2014
 

Fro

Cheatin on CBJ w TBL
Mar 11, 2009
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I believe I read from the Dispatch that they could have insured anything but Horton's shoulder when he signed here, and then they could have insured the shoulder when he came back from injury from it in JAnuary of 2014

ugh...this argument again???

yes, I'm fairly certain you're correct, and IMO, they were smart to have held off and insure everything then...it just backfired...
 

Forepar

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Nov 6, 2011
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South-Central Ohio
Zito was certainly here for the fiasco of the Horton situation. The actual signing, no - but the fiasco part? Yes.

As far as Super Genius's comments; leaving your top contract uninsured it moronic - especially if the name of your team doesn't contain a really large city. That was a financial decision, for all we know it was someone on JD's team that was responsible for that decision.

It wasn't as if Horton's contract was/is astronomically above all others annually.
Pretty close to current contracts for Foligno & Dubi (and Wiz), less than Bob's, and with the 5 year cap on insurance, it would be a wash today.

CBJ can only insure $X under the league-required policy.
Forgetting names, if they insured the top 5 salaries only, and if 5 were all in the $5M range, and if the 6th-salaried player with $4M per year for 5 years goes down long-term, then it would look moronic in hindsight not to have insured at least part of the 6th salary, and reduced the coverage on the top 5, or better yet to have not covered one of the top 5 at all because the FO should have known that player 6 was more susceptible to a career-ending injury that was coverable.

When Horton was added in 2013, the CBJ salary looked something like this:

Gaborik $7,500,000,
Bob $5,625,000
Wiz $5,500,000
Horton $5,300,000
Umberger $4,600,000
Tyutin $4,500,000
Dubinsky $4,200,000
JJ $3,357,000
Nikitin $2,150,000
Anisimov $3,283,000
Foligno $3,083,000

Who do you insure? Not Gaborik, he was UFA following that season, so not enough term to worry about. But from there, the choices weren't as easy, given the term on Wiz's and Umby's contracts, and the climbing amounts coming on Dubi's, Foligno's and Bob's contracts...It's easy to say not insuring Horton's contract was moronic, but the fact is that he mostly wasn't very insurable (shoulder and head excluded). Even if you covered the rest of Horton's body, you'd still have to decide which contracts not to insure - who? There was no indication that any one player was more likely to sustain a career ending injury that was COVERABLE.

Look at next year's apparent roster.
Approximate salaries (not cap hit), terms and insurable amounts (5 yr limit) are:
Bob $8.5, 4 yrs $29.7
Dubi $5.85, 6 yrs 29.2
Foligno $5.5, 6 yrs 27.5
Clarkson $5.5, 5 yrs 27.5
Hartnell $5.0, 4 yrs 17.5
Tyutin $5.0, 3 yrs 13.75
JJ $5.0, 3 yrs 15.0
RyJo $4.0, 2 yrs 8.0 (2016-17, assume 6 yrs at $8.0 =$40M insurable then
Anisimov $4.0, 1 yr 3.2
Atkinson $2.5, 3 yrs 10.5
Bourque $2.5, 1 yr. 2.5
Boll $1.7, 2 yrs 3.4
Letestu ??? (gone or 2-3 yr extension)
Calvert ???

Which of those contracts do you insure for 2015-16?

Because of the 5 yr limit on insurance, it looks like Bob, Dubi, Foligno and Clarkson (yes Clarkson) are, on the surface, no brainers based on insurable amounts , and maybe for maximum 90% as to all 4. But are there any exclusions from coverage for any of them (groins, heads, etc..) that would affect that decision? We don't know...we also don't know if the decision is to insure parts of their salaries, to spread the risk a bit wider. If you simply insure the top 4, then you only have Hartsy's $4.75 M in coverage to manuever with -- do you put it all on Hartsy's contract? None? Some on Tyuts and/or JJ's contract? What about Atkinson?

Looking out 2 years, RyJo's next contract will put him in Bob range, if not higher and for longer term. If you decide in 2017 only to insure top 5 salaries, that would put Bob and Joey at the "must insure" range (although Bob's term would only have 2 yrs left). Assuming we pick up the #1 RW in the next 18 months, that's another $6M+ in annual salary for presumably some term. If you insure Bob, Joey and #1RW, that leaves only 2 insurable contract numbers - if you insure the top 5 in full, then as between Dubi, Foligno and Clarkson, which contract do you NOT insure the following year? Maybe Clarkson, due to declining salary in last 2 years of term, but that still leaves zero insurance on Hartnell's contract and anyone below - including young kids who will have large extensions or bridge contracts by then (Murray, Jenner, Savard, Wennberg, Dano, etc...).

The business model we most work from is that if you think there's risk, insure it. The cap on this insurance through the league and the astronomical costs of insurance beyond the league program don't jive with most of our own experiences. The CBJ is a repeat player in the insurance business, so that what looks like rolling the dice on one player is actually rolling the dice on a number of players. Assume that CBJ has 5 contracts at $4M annual contract (and consistent 5 yr term so $20M left on each contract). If supplemental insurance beyond the league program costs $800K per year on each of the 5 contracts (20%), then you would only buy the insurance if the incidence of a player sustaining a long-term or career-ending injury were higher than 1 in 5 for that year. I say that because if CBJ insured 5 contracts for 5 years, the team would be out 5yrs x 5 contracts x $800k per year = $20,000,000 in paid premiums. If any one of the five insured contracts (and it could change identity from year to year)sustains a career ending injury in year 1, and if the team had decided not to insure, then the team is out $20,000,000. A wash, other than needing to obtain a replacement player (presumably a prospect at $1M per year). Dollars to doughnuts, the incidencie of career-ending injuries is much less often than 1 in 5 players. Probably less than 1 in 200, given that there are approximately 30 teams x 25 players = 750 players and I have not heard of any career ending injuries to a player in his prime this season (other than Horton). Unless the incidence approaches 1 in 10, then mathematically you would never buy supplemental insurance at 20% rates, as over time the insurance company wins and the team loses. Factor in questions like whether Bob's groin is insurable (and does that matter because is a groin a potential career-ending or long long-term injury)? If they re-sign Calvert, not sure the amount will be enough to worry about covering, but the concussion issue may not be insurable. There is even some talk in the industry of not covering concussions for anyone, history or not.

The same is true for the league-sponsored insurance. You obviously get the insurance (you don't have a choice), but assuming that career-ending injuries are random events, you either insure only the 5 largest insurable risks, and take your lumps as the randomness occurs, or you try to beat the odds by analyzing what/who is insurable, and who is more susceptible to injury, and allocate the insurance accordingly.

To suggest that the decision was moronic, or just that it's a simple decision, ignores the multiple variables and the imposed limitation on insurance. We buy a truck, we get more insurance. CBJ doesn't have that luxury - the get a veteran player with term, they have to decide whether and how to shift the insurance, they can't just add more insurance. They don't have the cash flow to pay that much in premium on every veteran contract with a signficant term and can't absorb the cash hit of a Horton situation. But if they don't gamble on the Horton-type player, or offer an long-term contract beyond insurable (Joey's next contract?), then do they ever get to SC? That's the balancing act they go through regularly in the business office - how do we become more successful, more profitable, more winning, while minimizing risk and holding costs at a reasonable level. I trust they do, because any good business (even mine!) does.
 

SuperGenius

For Duty & Humanity!
Mar 18, 2008
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EDIT - Sorry, I got bored!

No way. I dig the reply, and not because we agree. I get tired of the cheap shots and one liners about this thing when there is obviously so much more to it. It's nice to see someone put some thought into it.
 

We Want Ten

Make Chinakov Great Again
Apr 5, 2013
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No way. I dig the reply, and not because we agree. I get tired of the cheap shots and one liners about this thing when there is obviously so much more to it. It's nice to see someone put some thought into it.

If you can't insure a guy that represents 20% of the total value of your franchise, you don't sign the guy. Period. Its not that deep IMO.
 

JacketsDavid

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Jan 11, 2013
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Simple business strategy says you insure what you can't afford to lose.
You can debate that they did the right thing but the CBJ came out and said "We couldn't afford to pay him to sit in the stands".
Key word is AFFORD.

It's as simple as you go out and buy too big of house (or car, boat, RV, etc) and decide to skimp on the insurance. Then the thing breaks and you can't afford to replace it.

So again it's a dead horse, but it's because of that move that we now have a $5.5M 4th line forward for several more years. I don't think it can be justified, may you can try to figure out why they made the decision but once they said they couldn't AFFORD to pay him to sit in the stands it was clear it was a huge mistake.
 

Skraut

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Jul 31, 2006
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Enter city here

zelbell

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@LoriSchmidt: Ryan Johansen to TSN on Ryan Murray: "My nickname for him is 'Norris.' I honestly think he can be one of the best defenseman in the league."

@LoriSchmidt: Ryan Johansen to TSN on Columbus, "I tell everyone it's the hidden gem in the NHL...I hope I can be there as long as possible."
 

CBJx614

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May 25, 2012
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@LoriSchmidt: Ryan Johansen to TSN on Ryan Murray: "My nickname for him is 'Norris.' I honestly think he can be one of the best defenseman in the league."

@LoriSchmidt: Ryan Johansen to TSN on Columbus, "I tell everyone it's the hidden gem in the NHL...I hope I can be there as long as possible."
If he can stay healthy I agree. Ahh. Just imagine a Murray-Provorov pairing for the next 10 years.
 

SuperGenius

For Duty & Humanity!
Mar 18, 2008
4,639
200
http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/fox-sports-laying-off-writers-regional-networks.html

No more CBJ writing from Fox Sports Ohio

(or any writing from any Fox Sports affiliate, I know the Preds guy lost his position as well)

More here as well
http://www.crainscleveland.com/arti...s-digital-strategy-lays-off-freelance-writers

I don't read many of the threads here, so if it has already been discussed elsewhere, mods feel free to delete.

Too bad. I enjoyed reading the features, particularly in the last year. With all of the junk 'news' sites like fansided out there, this is a real loss.
 

Arch City Zach

Registered User
Jun 10, 2011
458
6
Columbus, OH
archcityarmy.com
http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/fox-sports-laying-off-writers-regional-networks.html

No more CBJ writing from Fox Sports Ohio

(or any writing from any Fox Sports affiliate, I know the Preds guy lost his position as well)

More here as well
http://www.crainscleveland.com/arti...s-digital-strategy-lays-off-freelance-writers

I don't read many of the threads here, so if it has already been discussed elsewhere, mods feel free to delete.

Gonna miss Gethin's articles, they were always fun to read.
 
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