IIHF Referee Exchange Program

Discussion in 'International Tournaments' started by ES, Sep 12, 2005.

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  1. ES

    ES Registered User

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    I think this topic belongs to here, because it is related to seven European countries, and I don't want to have more than one topic about this.

    IIHF started this last season, and continue now. The amount of games is increased. Last year there was 20 games in each league with foreign referees, now 24.

    Each of the seven nations in the program is represented by two referees:
    Czech Republic: Milan Minar, Vladimir Sindler
    Finland: Timo Favorin, Aleksi Rantala
    Germany: Martin Reichert, Richard Schütz
    Russia: Vyacheslav Bulanov, Alexander Polyakov
    Slovakia: Peter Jonak, Juraj Konc
    Sweden: Thomas Andersson, Markus Vinnerborg
    Switzerland: Danny Kurmann, Brent Reiber

    The referees work with local linesmen in foreign leagues.

    What did the fans in other countries think about foreign refs last year. I saw three games, I think that none of them was doing bad job. Kurmann did great job in the game I saw (maybe best game by ref I saw in whole season)

    And what about your local refs who are in the program. Are they top referees of the league?

    About Finnish I would say that Favorin is along the best at the moment, while Rantala has been average so far. (well, he is only 27 so he could still work for 15 more years)
     
  2. 12# Peter Bondra

    12# Peter Bondra Registered User

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    I never noticed them to be honest so they probably didnt do a bad job.

    But these refs arent used for the Leagues playoff's, that must be said.
     
  3. espo*

    espo* Guest

    The exchange program that is required is for them to come over here to work games so they get a better feel for how a real hockey game is called.I've been wishing and crowing on this for years.They are awful refs on average,they need to learn how to call a proper game for the good of all our hockey viewing entertainment.Their biggest sin continues to be having no concept on how to properly call physical play.Until they learn how to do that they will remain terrible referees.Getting them to work junior games over here would go a long way to improving their game calling skills which as of right now are still atrocious.
     
  4. Riddarn

    Riddarn 1980-2011

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    I hope the refs that come over to the SEL are better than last year. :shakehead
     
  5. 12# Peter Bondra

    12# Peter Bondra Registered User

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    Well, most Europeans on the other hand think NA referees ref badly.

    I guess it depends on the point of view.
     
  6. Riddarn

    Riddarn 1980-2011

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    NHL refs = generally good.

    Rick Looker & the other amateur dolts they send over for the World Champs = baaaaad.
     
  7. 12# Peter Bondra

    12# Peter Bondra Registered User

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    But there are also good European refs.

    The one that reffed the 2002 WC Finals (a Swede, cant remember) was good for example.
     
  8. ES

    ES Registered User

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    In 2002 Finals there was Finnish referee Jukka Pakaslahti. He retired soon after that and concentrated on his main job.
     
  9. 12# Peter Bondra

    12# Peter Bondra Registered User

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    Well, I knew he was a Scandinavian ref. :innocent:
     
  10. espo*

    espo* Guest

    The point of view on my side being from the way hockey is supposed to be called from time immemorial.Europeans made up un-traditional ways to both play and call the game but it does'nt make it legitimate.When you get put in the box for a good clean hit it should be looked on as terrible referring no matter where you grew up because it's within the rule book and the way the game issupposed to be played.Sure,many Euro's think N.A refs fronm the nhl are no good,they think we should be in the penalty box when we nail one of their players with a clean open ice hit........................but of course the Euro fans are wrong because it's legal and the way hockey is supposed to be.

    All Euro fans need to do is read the rule book and maybe their complaints would stop.but it probably would'nt..............it's cultural and they will base their opinions on the hockey culture they grew up with.Only one problem with this................it was decided a long time ago how the game would and should be played,they can't go changing the rules to suit their preferred style of play.I've said it before and will say it a million times.................Canadians will never ask or tell Euro's to change the rules of football to suit our viewing desires.We could ask to change offside rules to create more scoring opportuinities and make football more contact oriented but will never do so,we respect that the game is the way it is by mutual decision of football loving countries long before we got involved.We'd like the same respect returned,Thanks :)
     
  11. Den

    Den Registered User

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    Well, the analogy with the soccer does not fly: the argument just repeats the old song of Canada owing the game. Rules of soccer and the calls have been changing over time under worldwide influences, so should it be with hockey.

    I actually think NA refs are fine, usually better then Euros. That is when one of the sides is not Canada or USA. On those memoriable ocasions it can be ugly. I was watching 3-d game of the 87 CC today for 10^9 time and I still can't stop loving that travesty of refereeing.
     
  12. espo*

    espo* Guest

    What changes in soccer have we called for and brought to that slow as maple sap game? That's right..............NONE!!Also,checking is allowed in the hockey rule book(the European one also)So,they are basically calling the game incorrectly!!There have been no official changes to dis-allowing or allowing hitting in hockey,simply put......it's in the Book!!........... Give it up,you've got no case.They are just bad refs who can't call a proper game.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2005
  13. jekoh

    jekoh Registered User

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    That's ridiculous. There's been a lot of changes in the way football is reffed.
     
  14. Den

    Den Registered User

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    I am sure FIFA would consider any Canadian proposal if you try. They will of course reject it if there is a majority against it. In Euro hockey a majority has voted the IIHF rules in and the majority thinks the current style of refereeing is appropriate.

    What Book? If you mean the IIHF rules - that's exactly how Euro's referee and play. Of course chechking is allowed but anything that resembles boarding or interference, stuff that would never be punished in Canada, is whistled down. This is an interpretation of the rules. I don't get your gripe about "the Book" - the Euro rules have been adopted by all Europeans and 61 out of 63 IIHF membes play by these rules. If Canada came up with something in soccer that was supported by all FIFA members with the exception of two - that rule would be there the next day...
     
  15. espo*

    espo* Guest

    Negative partner.The book i'm talking about is the book they do use in the iihf,a book they don't call by the book.Meaning,hits of all kinds(especially the open ice variety) get called with regularity yet it's legal.In these parts we call it...."two minutes for being Canadian" When Euro's get called on it we call it...."two minutes for acting like a Canadian" and we all have a great laugh yet are pissed off at the same time.There is no rule book interpretation on those hits..................just cultural interpretation.Check it out if you wish,look it up..............you'll see they simply don't call the game on physical play according to the rule book,and of course that's whats wrong and why their reffereeing is considered so God awful.If this was an issue of interference as you say....................the Czechs would spend half the game in the box....................but they don't.
     
  16. cyclops, you're talking as if every bodycheck is penalized in Europe, and that's nothing but pure bull****.

    Lets talk about "the book" for a minute....

    From the IIHF Rulebook...

    520 - BOARDING
    A player who bodychecks, elbows, charges or trips an opponent in such a manner that it causes the opponent to be thrown violently into the boards, shall be assessed at the discretion of the referee, a Minor Penalty or Major Penalty and a Game Misconduct.

    Key words: Thrown violently into the boards. This is determined by referee's judgment. What you think is clean might not be according to any given referee's standards. Just because your opinion might differ does not mean the referee sucks.


    528 - FISTICUFFS OR ROUGHING
    If a player is deemed guilty of unnecessary roughness, he shall be assessed, at the
    discretion of the Referee, a Minor Penalty, Double Minor Penalty or Major Penalty and a Game Misconduct.

    Key words: Deemed guilty. This means that what is and is not roughing is up to every individual referee. See above about difference of opinion.

    European referees are trained to call tight, tight games (much like we're about to see in the NHL this season), especially when it comes to rough play, and checks to the head. This means that under IIHF Rules, Scott Stevens' hits on Kariya and Francis would have had him sitting 12 minutes in the box (2 + 10), and his hit on Lindros would have had him kicked out of the game and likely suspended.

    European referees simply have a much tighter standard on Boarding, Charging, Checking From Behind, and Roughing than most North American leagues do. They also have a rule (like Hockey Canada) forbidding any checks to the head. All of these rules can be broken on any given bodycheck. Open ice hits also give the possibility of kneeing penalties. When a check happens, referees don't simply judge if it's clean or not, they have to think about any possible rule that might have been breached, and they have to think about it in a split second.
     
  17. espo*

    espo* Guest

    Go way,i'm not saying every check is being called in Europe,just clean,legal ones that Euro refs are brought up as thinking are too "violent"..................it's absolute ******** they let this kind of game calling go on.You watch the worlds next year and watch the first time a clean open ice body check gets delivered(especially is the "offender" happens to be wearing a uniform with a Maple Leaf on it) and i'll bet you all the money in my savings account(admittedly not that much) that he get's sent to the sin bin.

    Just watch our games next year...............just watch,you'll see.There is a diffrence between an illegal open ice check or any check for that matter and a legal one..............but Euro refs don't make the distinction 8 times out of ten and that's the problem and why i say they have to go back to officiating school or check their biases at the door or both(both probably) because they suck at calling that part of the game and that's that. Turn your tube on next year and watch for it and you'll see it.......................they are dreadful and need to get their act together.I'm sorry,that's just the way it is.

    Two minutes for being and acting Canadian,let's get rid of it................the game will be all the better for it.For both me..............and you!!

    You'll get a more kick-*** game............your hockey veiwing senses wil thank you for it and you'll enjoy the game like never before,why would'nt you want that? Don't stick up for those bo-zo's that are the zebras over there man..............they rip you off.
     
  18. Don't you get it? That's how they are trained to call the game over there. It's not that they suck, are biased, or whatever else you can come up with. The European game is much different than that North American game. The only times this issue is brought up is when Canada or the USA is playing with a European referee at the helm. If it's two European teams playing, this is a non-issue. Coincidence? I don't think so.
     
  19. espo*

    espo* Guest

    Don't you get it? That's why they suck!!!!!!!!!

    You just answered your own question and don't seem to notice :dunno:

    I don't get your argument that it is a matter of perception why i think they suck.If someone told me that in their country they have been taught that the best way to get from point A to point B is to go in a circle i'd still know the best way to do it is in a straight line not walking around in rings.Just because someone is taught to do something a certain way does'nt mean it's the proper way and the way they call the games sure as heck ain't the proper way!!!

    I KNOW they suck because that is the way they were taught to call the game,that's what i was saying all the time.I agree with you here.....they suck because of the way they were taught to call the game.............which is the wrong way.That's my point.

    And it is an issue with Euro fans when their teams meet............they say the Euro refs are fine until their team loses a damn game.......................then they are terrible and can't call a game to save their own soul.You should have been around here last worlds when a thread got banned because N American fans were saying the exact same things i have been saying here and the Euro fans were quick to get all hot and bothered swearing the Euro refs were fine.Then the games started..................and the very same guys who were defending the incompetent boobs were crying bloody murder and saying they were the worst refs they had ever seen.And i agreed with them...................but i already knew that anyway.

    They suck and they suck because of exactly just what you mentioned in this post that i am replying to.They can't ref save for a few exceptions................period!!!!!

    I can't go much further then this with this issue,95% of them are incompetent,case closed and we don't need Perry Mason to close it......just two good eyes with working rods and cones.When it changes..............i'll come back here and say they've improved.I wonder when or if it will ever happen though.I'm losing faith,if i ever had any.

    After watching them for the last 30 years,they don't inspire much confidence they ever will.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2005
  20. There is no right and wrong way to call a game when it comes to Europe and North America. It's an entirely different style. European players aren't taught the "bang and crash" (for lack of a better term) game that North Americans are, thus the European game is officiated differently. Why do you think European linesmen could never handle a pro North American game? It's because a fight occurs in a European game barely more often than Haley's Comet orbits Earth.

    If you agree that they officiate the way they are taught, that means that you are saying they are competent in their jobs, which is following instruction given to them by their supervisors. Your beef is not with European referees, it is with how the European game is taught to players and officials.
     
  21. espo*

    espo* Guest

    yeah,i guess you're right when you put it that way.I suppose there is nothing intrinsicly wrong with them,i guess it's the way they are taught to call the game.

    Apologies to all European officials out there,you are not all inherently terrible,it's not that you are genetically predisposed to be terrible,you are just made that way by how you are taught to call the game(the wrong way) When Van lays the card on the table and explains the situation as it appears it's clear it's nurture not nature behind your God awful game calling.

    Now the question becomes........................what can International hockey or the IIHF as a collective body do to turn this around? This will take years to root out i'm sure but it can be done and will be worth the effort for sure.................any one with any suggestions?
     
  22. Riddarn

    Riddarn 1980-2011

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    Holy incoherent semipsychotic ramblings, batman! :shakehead
     
  23. espo*

    espo* Guest

    it's a pretty easy post to figure out if you've gone past grade 2 or 3.I say they suck.......................you having a hard time disciphering that? Well.........whose fault is that? Not mine that's for sure :dunno:

    You can't blame me if you don't understand the english words..."they suck" Just take more ESL classes viking.
     
  24. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay Registered User

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    The thing that european (or atleast swedish refs) are worst at calling is the infamous obstruction, hooking and interference.

    The reason why you dont see as many hits in europe vs. the NHL is rink size, not the refs.
     
  25. To put it plain and simple, it's likely never going to happen. There will always be major differences between the European game and the North American game.

    Even in soccer, easily the world's biggest and most popular sport and where every country plays under the same rules (unlike hockey), the style and quality of the game still changes from region to region.
     
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