If you could choose between Bylsma or Shero?

[UnrealMachine]

Scuderi - Jury is still out. At the time everyone was in favor of it. He's been injured and not recovered. Remember when some were ready to burn Martin in effigy after his first season? How has that turned around?

Kobasew - No risk, moderate reward situation. Low cost option for a team that had it's forward depth gutted by FA.

Morrow - He was very productive after the trade and before he started playing on the injured knee. He's doing just fine in a similar role on the best team in the league. High price to pay for him, but you can't fault it.

Murray - I go back and forth on this one. We clearly needed a physical presence to clear the crease. But he's just awful at everything else.

Dupuis - He gets a ton of grief around here, but he is what he is. For the cost you're not likely to find a more versatile or productive player. Injury doesn't help the perception and he isn't what I would consider a 1st line winger in optimal circumstances but he has done fine playing with Sid.

Adams - No argument. Guy is done. But again, low cost.

Iginla - You'll never convince me that this situation was anything but Bylsma going full Bylsma and using the premier RW of the last 10/15 yrs out of position and hardly at all on a PP that absolutely needed a cannon shot from the left wall.

Bylsma - Agree. He should have been gone after '12.

Strait/Lovejoy - They weren't going to unseat anyone here anyway. Let's not kid ourselves.

Eaton - See Kobasew.

D'Agostini - See Eaton.

I don't understand the "low cost" argument seen multiple, multiple times above. It's like buying a heavily discounted and equally expired sandwich - when you get violently ill afterwards, you can't just shrug it off and pat yourself on the back for only paying half price.

 

[billybudd]

While I think Shero's better at his job than Dan is at his, if keeping Shero means 2 more full seasons of a completely shot Craig Adams and 5 more years of a rapidly washing up Brooks Orpik, I keep Dan and fire Ray.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I like Shero but both should go. This team has taken a complete 180 from what they were.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I don't understand the "low cost" argument seen multiple, multiple times above. It's like buying a heavily discounted and equally expired sandwich - when you get violently ill afterwards, you can't just shrug it off and pat yourself on the back for only paying half price.

And when you add up SEVERAL "low cost" players guess what you have??? Money for a legitimate player that could actually help the roster.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=6747078&postcount=3 from 2006

Hey I can play that game too..

meanwhile.. he goes on to score 29 goals as an 18 year old. A+ talent evaluation

alright, i'm done here. enough thread derailing for now.. lol. continue.

Staal needed to work on his skating and looked raw in training camp. I would say the exact same thing all over again. I'm not the one who said he would be a "beast" and compared him to Eric, then went on a Staal bashing crusade. The irony is pretty comical, but I find things like that amusing, especially when someone with a bad memory tries to call me out.

Just because I thought your Staal bashing was over the top, doesnt mean I never thought he should be traded or wanted him over Kessel. In fact, it's not hard to back myself up that Kessel is the guy I wanted. Here is the thread from when we found out the Pens would pick second:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=243962

Either way Pens will take Johnson or Kessel. Good day for Pen's fans.

No complaints here...happy for the Blues.

Kessel and Crosby playing off the half boards on their respective sides with Malkin working down low with his size...is fun to imagine.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You have two options:

A: Fire Bylsma in the offseason, but Shero keeps his job. Shero re-signs Orpik, Glass and Pyatt in the offseason and extends Adams for another year. Jacques Martin is the new head coach.

B: Keep Bylsma as a coach, but Shero gets fired. Orpik, Glass and Pyatt don't get re-signed. Adams doesn't get an extension.

These options both stink. If Bylsma's no longer the coach, why would Shero keep around his pets?

I'd still rather see Bylsma fired since at least there's a chance the new coach won't use those useless plugs in key roles. But that's just splitting hairs because neither scenario is a good one.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Keep Shero, Fire Bylsma. But if Bylsma goes his pets would too, the options are eh. Those two need to be separated, they're toxic together and Shero accomplished things before Bylsma, that's where it ends for me.

 

[Shady Machine]

Scuderi - Jury is still out. At the time everyone was in favor of it. He's been injured and not recovered. Remember when some were ready to burn Martin in effigy after his first season? How has that turned around?

Kobasew - No risk, moderate reward situation. Low cost option for a team that had it's forward depth gutted by FA.

Morrow - He was very productive after the trade and before he started playing on the injured knee. He's doing just fine in a similar role on the best team in the league. High price to pay for him, but you can't fault it.

Murray - I go back and forth on this one. We clearly needed a physical presence to clear the crease. But he's just awful at everything else.

Dupuis - He gets a ton of grief around here, but he is what he is. For the cost you're not likely to find a more versatile or productive player. Injury doesn't help the perception and he isn't what I would consider a 1st line winger in optimal circumstances but he has done fine playing with Sid.

Adams - No argument. Guy is done. But again, low cost.

Iginla - You'll never convince me that this situation was anything but Bylsma going full Bylsma and using the premier RW of the last 10/15 yrs out of position and hardly at all on a PP that absolutely needed a cannon shot from the left wall.

Bylsma - Agree. He should have been gone after '12.

Strait/Lovejoy - They weren't going to unseat anyone here anyway. Let's not kid ourselves.

Eaton - See Kobasew.

D'Agostini - See Eaton.

The problem with these "low risk, moderate rewards" signings is that you have to know your coach. The coach always defaults to the veteran. Eaton was brought in as a low cost veteran to push the young guys and then he immediately became a top 4 staple on the team. Now we are a year removed and Despres and Bort aren't regulars. Maybe if we don't bring in Eaton, Despres' improves substantially and we don't need to go get Scuderi. Those are the types of risks you have to take if you want the benefit of drafting a zillion d prospects to pay off before Sid and Geno are 30.

 

[mpp9]

If DP makes an impact next season, Shero's earlier draft failures are forgotten. We'll have two stud D-men 1-2 seasons into their ELCs. And we can then spend money to address the awful depth up front.

I'd say the most damning evidence of Shero is that once Staal was traded, that should have been a green light for him to start building around Sid/Geno. You missed out on Parise? Ok, how about using your D prospects and/or expendable roster D to pick up wingers that fit in with the team for a few years.

If there have been no hockey trades out there using one of our many expendable D-men, then his philosophy of building a surplus on defense has failed. DB holding guys like Despres back where we can't rely on him in the playoffs or build up his trade value enough to warrant bringing in a top 6 winger is the icing on the cake.

 

[Pens1566]

I don't understand the "low cost" argument seen multiple, multiple times above. It's like buying a heavily discounted and equally expired sandwich - when you get violently ill afterwards, you can't just shrug it off and pat yourself on the back for only paying half price.

As in league minimum or close. You're going to pay someone at least that much anyway. There was no gamble involved. Kind of important when dealing with the cap on a roster that was close to the max before it went down by roughly 6mil last off season.

 

[Pens1566]

And when you add up SEVERAL "low cost" players guess what you have??? Money for a legitimate player that could actually help the roster.

No. Not even close. If you do that, then you run with a roster of 18 or maybe 20,21 depending on the cost of these supposedly easily available, obvious upgrades.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Become a Flyers fan....

 

[Whakahere]

After the roster Shero built last year for the playoff push I would have him. We had a awesome roster on paper ..... but our coach used them like crap. I couldn't believe how he used the roster players and the roles he gave players. It was head butting mad.

After the first few series where we were outplayed but did nothing to change ...I, for the first time in any playoff series since the Mario cup winning days, stopped watching when we starting playing boston. It was too clear we wouldn't win.

This year is the first year I haven't been into the pens like I normally do. I was more into the team even when we had our x-gen 18 game losing streak. This is on the coach. Nothing has changed with him and he has shown no personal progress. I want the coach gone.

 

[mpp9]

No. Not even close. If you do that, then you run with a roster of 18 or maybe 20,21 depending on the cost of these supposedly easily available, obvious upgrades.

I'd take a bottom six of Gibbons-Sutter-Megna and Sill-Vitale-Engelland. With the money left over being used purely for an upgrade for Sid's line at the deadline.

Gladams and Pyatt aren't necessary and never were. That's where the frustration lies. Kobasew didn't pan out, but I don't blame Shero for giving him a shot. At least he has a recent track record of being a good hockey player. And he may yet get another shot in the playoffs once Gladams prove themselves to be the **** players they are.

 

[Farnham4top6]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=6747078&postcount=3 from 2006


Hey I can play that game too..



meanwhile.. he goes on to score 29 goals as an 18 year old. A+ talent evaluation

alright, i'm done here. enough thread derailing for now.. lol. continue.

Keeping Staal in nhl as a 18-year old ruined much of staals development, he had the highest ceiling out of the players in the draft but because of pens ****ing up his development he is only going to become a decent 2nd liner instead of a big physical 2-way beast who scores 80+ point per season.

 

[Fire Shero*]

Keep Bylsma

Any competent GM would not have Adams, Pyatt, Orpik on their roster. A capable GM wouldn't have signed all of the dead weight.

He just never took advantage of having the two best players in the league. I'm sorry, this team would so much better if he'd stop signing terrible players.

They are both awful, if you fire Shero, the next GM would obviously fire disco. Disco's replacement couldn't fire Shero.

 

[Pens1566]

Keep Bylsma

Any competent GM would not have Adams, Pyatt, Orpik on their roster. A capable GM wouldn't have signed all of the dead weight.

He just never took advantage of having the two best players in the league. I'm sorry, this team would so much better if he'd stop signing terrible players.

They are both awful, if you fire Shero, the next GM would obviously fire disco. Disco's replacement couldn't fire Shero.

You do realize that he just can't sign any player he wants and that the player also has to agree to it as well?

 

[Coastal Kev]

No. Not even close. If you do that, then you run with a roster of 18 or maybe 20,21 depending on the cost of these supposedly easily available, obvious upgrades.

NOT if you trust your prospects you don't. Play prospects mixed with one or two solid Free Agents. Money spent on Adams, Pyatt, Scuds, Kobasew, Dags and Glass. Add all of that up and see how much money you would have to spend. The Pens already have players better than each of the players I listed.

 

[Pens1566]

NOT if you trust your prospects you don't. Play prospects mixed with one or two solid Free Agents. Money spent on Adams, Pyatt, Scuds, Kobasew, Dags and Glass. Add all of that up and see how much money you would have to spend. The Pens already have players better than each of the players I listed.

They're still taking up one of up to 23 roster spots at (most likely) more than league minimum. It's simple math.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Shero's made some dumb ****ing decisions, and has had a tough time drafting/developing NHL caliber talent, but Bylsma has had his fingerprints ALL OVER every major embarrassment this team has suffered since it won the Cup.

Give me Shero over Bylsma 11 times out of 10.

 

[MtlPenFan]

NOT if you trust your prospects you don't. Play prospects mixed with one or two solid Free Agents. Money spent on Adams, Pyatt, Scuds, Kobasew, Dags and Glass. Add all of that up and see how much money you would have to spend. The Pens already have players better than each of the players I listed.

They're all cumulative. Add letting go Orpik like they should have as well, and suddenly you've got some money to play with. I remember someone blasting me in October because i wanted Raymond over Kobasew, so there's that too. I wonder how nice that guy would look on this team right now...

Both Shero and Bylsma go hand in hand. The entire organization has been living in a bubble since the '09 playoffs, refusing to evolve even though their "plan" has blown up in their faces in humiliating fashion time and again. We can thank the Isles for not having a Vokoun type backup, or else there WOULD have been changes and we wouldn't be having these discussions.

I at least kinda saw the logic behind Scuderi's signing, even though it hasn't panned out, but it was the Adams signing that killed me. Are you going to tell me that you were so afraid of losing that guy that you actually gave him a 2nd year???

 

[3074326]

I like the moves Shero has made in terms of trades.. I don't think some of them were used correctly (Iginla, specifically).

What I don't like about the Pens' management is that this team went from a gritty, pain in the ass team to a finesse team. The Pens need to get their grit and toughness back in the bottom six. Stop being small and soft, get bigger and tougher. The top six would be perfect with that combination. As it stands, the bottom six is pretty soft, we have d-men that don't fit the current system, and our stars are being relied upon way too much. So much that if they don't score, we lose. Simple as that.

I can't say I want Shero fired because I think he's put Bylsma in situations to succeed multiple times, but we have a million d-men and no forward depth. We have no toughness. Our version of toughness is to cheap shot the other team when we're losing. A Cup was in Pittsburgh not so long ago, and this team isn't even close to the same type of team that was. I don't understand why management would get away from what was very successful in the postseason.

Didn't vote because both options are horrible.

 

[joeyjake5]

Any one who supports Scuds uses injury for his bad declining play. If it is due to injury, WHY IS HE PLAYING.

 

[Coastal Kev]

They're all cumulative. Add letting go Orpik like they should have as well, and suddenly you've got some money to play with. I remember someone blasting me in October because i wanted Raymond over Kobasew, so there's that too. I wonder how nice that guy would look on this team right now...

Both Shero and Bylsma go hand in hand. The entire organization has been living in a bubble since the '09 playoffs, refusing to evolve even though their "plan" has blown up in their faces in humiliating fashion time and again. We can thank the Isles for not having a Vokoun type backup, or else there WOULD have been changes and we wouldn't be having these discussions.

I at least kinda saw the logic behind Scuderi's signing, even though it hasn't panned out, but it was the Adams signing that killed me. Are you going to tell me that you were so afraid of losing that guy that you actually gave him a 2nd year???

I agree with everything except the Scuderi signing. The one thing that the Pens have is an abundance of D talent. Can anyone here make the argument that SCUDS is drastically better than Depres this year??? Also, by taking away playing time from Depres, we are stunting his growth as a player. And lastly, I wouldn't have liked the signing for the reason stated above even if it was for only one year. BUT 4 YEARS????? If ownership were involved like we think they are, they should have nixed the signing and fired Shero on the spot. Combine that with Adams, Duper and Kunitz all getting multi year deals, last offseason was a train wreck.

 

[DoktorZaius]

The difference, to me, is that Ray Shero is probably a smart guy. So he's made some mistakes, but we've also seen strokes of genius.

Dan Bylsma, while a nice guy, seems pretty dumb. He's wracking his brain trying to figure out a way to turn things around, and he can't come up with anything. Coupled with his stubbornness, that's a recipe for the type of ignominious defeats we've seen from the Pens in the postseason & Team U.S. in the medal round more recently.