If the Top 100 players All-time list is redone today, where does McDavid's career place him?

[vadim sharifijanov]

Please, give McDavid a prime Gretzky/Messier/Coffey and he wins just as much as Tikkanen. Tikkanen was a role player

the real question is give mcd a tikkanen and then see how he compares to gretzky and messier

the inverse is backwards thinking. there is no comparison between mcd and tikkanen because neither could contribute what the other does.

but at the same time this also shines a light on how vapid the “give ____ [superstar teammate]“ is because mcd obviously has a hart/ross winning teammate. what is keeping him from winning isn’t not having enough draisaitls, it’s not having any tikkanens or lowes.

 

[Habsfan18]

Here’s a question for everyone.

What would Connor McDavid have to do over the next 10-15 years to surpass, in your view, Jean Beliveau on an all-time historical ranking?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Here’s a question for everyone.

What would Connor McDavid have to do over the next 10-15 years to surpass, in your view, Jean Beliveau on an all-time historical ranking?

While Beliveau might still have the 1 year peak (depends on how you view 20-21 foe McDavid). But McDavid has the better 2-5 seasons.

Beliveau has such a strong and long prime, that McDavid would need maybe 2-4 more seasons in top 5 in Hart.

Additionally, Beliveau is a top 5 playoff performer all time. It would be hard for McDavid to overtake him without a Smythe and a couple more strong runs.

 

[wetcoast]

While Beliveau might still have the 1 year peak (depends on how you view 20-21 foe McDavid). But McDavid has the better 2-5 seasons.

Beliveau has such a strong and long prime, that McDavid would need maybe 2-4 more seasons in top 5 in Hart.

Additionally, Beliveau is a top 5 playoff performer all time. It would be hard for McDavid to overtake him without a Smythe and a couple more strong runs.

I know that Jean was 4th in the top 40 playoff performers of all time but that project is possibly the least "accurate" of the recent top projects and most would agree with that as well.

Also it's very hard to distinguish much if any separation from the individual playoff performances between Jean and Sid and in fact there is a strong case to have Sid over Jean and while that's the case the divergence of Sid being a top 5 playoff performer of all time would be quite a bit as well.

Isolating individual regular season performance for forwards is much easier to do than for playoffs is what I'm trying to say in a nutshell here.

Beliveau probably has lower lows in his resume than either McDavid or Crosby as well although some people will treat that differently in terms of importance.

 

[bobholly39]

I know that Jean was 4th in the top 40 playoff performers of all time but that project is possibly the least "accurate" of the recent top projects and most would agree with that as well.

Also it's very hard to distinguish much if any separation from the individual playoff performances between Jean and Sid and in fact there is a strong case to have Sid over Jean and while that's the case the divergence of Sid being a top 5 playoff performer of all time would be quite a bit as well.

Isolating individual regular season performance for forwards is much easier to do than for playoffs is what I'm trying to say in a nutshell here.

Beliveau probably has lower lows in his resume than either McDavid or Crosby as well although some people will treat that differently in terms of importance.

The playoff project may be the least accurate, but at the top Beliveau is pretty safely top 5 playoff performer all-time. I don't think Crosby is that high, though probably not too far off anymore.

 

[wetcoast]

The playoff project may be the least accurate, but at the top Beliveau is pretty safely top 5 playoff performer all-time. I don't think Crosby is that high, though probably not too far off anymore.

I respectfully suggest that you go compare their respective playoff resumes then as a case can be made for either guy having the better resume, although I think Crosby has a stronger case as Jean had by far the better supporting cast (line mates ect...).

 

[Habsfan18]

Currently at 23 points in 9.5 games and counting.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Only Gretzky and Lemieux have had more points than McDavid’s 23 thru 10 games in playoff history.

And it’s not one of those cases where he’s just collecting a lot points, right place/right time. He’s the driving force behind the vast majority of them.

He’s not going to have the longevity yet 7 seasons into his career, but what he’s accomplished so far in terms of scoring finishes and now peak play are undeniable. We’re witnessing history.

 

[FinProspects]

So this is how it must have been watching peak Gretzky/Mario/Orr.

 

[Rengorlex]

Only Gretzky and Lemieux have had more points than McDavid’s 23 thru 10 games in playoff history.

And it’s not one of those cases where he’s just collecting a lot points, right place/right time. He’s the driving force behind the vast majority of them.

He’s not going to have the longevity yet 7 seasons into his career, but what he’s accomplished so far in terms of scoring finishes and now peak play are undeniable. We’re witnessing history.

I wonder how it looks like adjusted for era scoring or opponent goals against average in regular season. Calgary was elite and Kings a good defensive team.

His start to these playoffs may be as impressive as any in NHL history.

 

[bobholly39]

I wonder how it looks like adjusted for era scoring or opponent goals against average in regular season. Calgary was elite and Kings a good defensive team.

His start to these playoffs may be as impressive as any in NHL history.

I think he's definitely up there in terms of most impressive starts ever.

But LA no one gave a chance to, and Calgary are notorious playoff chokers so i wouldn't exactly call either/or a super strong opponent.

In 2018 (lower scoring era):

Crosby & Guentzel 21 points in 12 games
Pastrnak 20 points in 12 games

Closest recent examples i can think of. I think McDavid this year is better than any of those, but somewhat close. Not sure how he compares to the best of Gretzky or Lemieux though

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't get trying to explain these teams away...

The Oilers have a terrible roster. It's way worse than LA's and Calgary's...except for 97 and the hobbled 29.

Calgary being playoff chokers in the 90's has nothing to do with this team...

Guentzel went against Philadelphia and Washington in those playoffs - it's tough not associate playoff collapses with those franchises, right? He also got to shoot on Elliott and Neuvirth...why is there no adjustment for that? Just because it didn't happen last night?

And that's just this era...let's not even get into Gretzky having a 90 point series against Murray Bannerman...

 

[The Macho King]

I've said all along what McDavid was missing was a signature playoff run. I don't care about Cups, but I do care about elevating your own game.

He's having a John Handcock moment right now. Got damn.

 

[wetcoast]

Currently at 23 points in 9.5 games and counting.

I'm really surprised that the record was current and not in the 80s.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't get trying to explain these teams away...

The Oilers have a terrible roster. It's way worse than LA's and Calgary's...except for 97 and the hobbled 29.

Calgary being playoff chokers in the 90's has nothing to do with this team...

Guentzel went against Philadelphia and Washington in those playoffs - it's tough not associate playoff collapses with those franchises, right? He also got to shoot on Elliott and Neuvirth...why is there no adjustment for that? Just because it didn't happen last night?

And that's just this era...let's not even get into Gretzky having a 90 point series against Murray Bannerman...

i think there’s no explanation that discredits what we are plainly seeing, which is that a generational talent is hitting a new level

but the kinds of context that time forgets, we haven’t forgotten yet. and just because i can’t go series by series and tell you which defenders were hurt when gretzky or mario or even crosby and malkin had their hottest runs, that doesn’t mean that LA and calgary both playing without by far their best defenders is meaningless info.

 

[tabness]

i think there’s no explanation that discredits what we are plainly seeing, which is that a generational talent is hitting a new level

but the kinds of context that time forgets, we haven’t forgotten yet. and just because i can’t go series by series and tell you which defenders were hurt when gretzky or mario or even crosby and malkin had their hottest runs, that doesn’t mean that LA and calgary both playing without by far their best defenders is meaningless info.

LA played McDavid generally real well despite injuries (and Quick was up and down a bit but generally in good form at the end of the series), he still dominated. I've been far less impressed with Calgary, Markstrom actually wasn't that bad last game (except maybe the first goal), but their team defense is making the rest of the Oilers cocky enough to try to be cute and they're succeeding lol

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

i think there’s no explanation that discredits what we are plainly seeing, which is that a generational talent is hitting a new level

but the kinds of context that time forgets, we haven’t forgotten yet. and just because i can’t go series by series and tell you which defenders were hurt when gretzky or mario or even crosby and malkin had their hottest runs, that doesn’t mean that LA and calgary both playing without by far their best defenders is meaningless info.

Keep moving those goalposts.

Doughty hasn't played like a top D in 4 years at this point. Kopitar didn't miss a minute and got abused all series. Oh, and yeah...Im sure the mighty Chris Tanev being out is why McDavid is going off against Calgary.

I don't care if he's doing it against beer leaguers, the man is scoring at a 2.30 PPG rate in the playoffs. Not even accounting for eras, that's not far off Gretzky's best of 2.61 PPG in a playoff

 

[The Macho King]

i think there’s no explanation that discredits what we are plainly seeing, which is that a generational talent is hitting a new level

but the kinds of context that time forgets, we haven’t forgotten yet. and just because i can’t go series by series and tell you which defenders were hurt when gretzky or mario or even crosby and malkin had their hottest runs, that doesn’t mean that LA and calgary both playing without by far their best defenders is meaningless info.

I don't think that context really matters. McDavid can't control who is out on the ice against him. If he scores a goal because the Flames third pair was caught out there on an icing, does that somehow negate the goal?

McDavid is producing. That's all you can ask of him.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think there’s no explanation that discredits what we are plainly seeing, which is that a generational talent is hitting a new level

huh?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

huh?

The problem is you had to stick that "yeah, but" in there to try to devalue what McDavid has done so far in these playoffs. A "yeah, but" that is incredibly weak and irrelevant.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't get trying to explain these teams away...

The Oilers have a terrible roster. It's way worse than LA's and Calgary's...except for 97 and the hobbled 29.

Calgary being playoff chokers in the 90's has nothing to do with this team...

Guentzel went against Philadelphia and Washington in those playoffs - it's tough not associate playoff collapses with those franchises, right? He also got to shoot on Elliott and Neuvirth...why is there no adjustment for that? Just because it didn't happen last night?

And that's just this era...let's not even get into Gretzky having a 90 point series against Murray Bannerman...

This idea that the Oilers have a terrible roster needs to go away. Their roster looks very similar to the 2009 Penguins. And Smith is playing way better than Fleury did that year.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I mean, the '09 Penguins were no prize either...that's not the formula for success, it was just Crosby, Malkin, Gonchar, and Fleury (yes, Fleury - who only had one bad series in that run, after a Smythe-worthy run the year before) willed us there.

The Oilers shape up like this basically...
Streak n' score top-six winger - Best player on planet - German Gretzky
Complementary winger - 2C - 3RW
3/4LW - 4C - 2/3RW
4RW - 4C - 4RW

Low IQ 4D - 6D
Old 5/6D - Young, Low IQ 4D
6D - 2/3/4D

Old, inconsistent 1B/2
Fringe NHLer

That defense is ghastly and the goaltending is unreliable. Their execution shows that.

##

The '09 Penguins were:

Complementary winger - Best player on planet - Old top 6 winger
3LW - Russian Lemieux - 4C
3LW - 2C - 3RW
4LW - 4C - 2/3RW

4D - 1D
6D - Young 3D (soon 1D)
6D - 6D

1G
2G

The key difference with the Penguins is the lack of low IQ players. Really, just Kennedy was far below the mark on hockey sense - he was easy to insulate and with only one poor IQ player on the rink at any one time, it's easy to figure out for teammates.

Meanwhile, Bouchard and Nurse being on the rink for most of the game is unreal to watch...that's probably why 97 has to try to go coast to coast so much, I wouldn't trust most of that Oilers defense to get me a glass of water...

I look at this Oilers roster as more parallel with the '01 Penguins...

- Two superstars.
- One unpredictable, but very talented winger.
- Quality second line pieces.
- Very unreliable depth pieces that are designed to just go out there and hold on for dear life while 97 gets a drink.
- A generally inept defense, where no great combination of players can even get you to 30 sound minutes, much less 60

Also, this team featured the rarity of forwards out pacing their D in ATOI. 97 leads this team in ATOI. Drai would be there too if he didn't get hurt.
- A goalie who is cold a little more than he is hot

 

[VanIslander]

How many HHOF greatest goalies and greatest defensemen are in the game today? The quality of opposition is driven more by coaching strategy these days than by player excellence.

It is a totally different game today than the 1990s. That is obvious to us in our fifties.

To be clear: A Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman and Messier played against the likes of Bourque, Lidstrom, Roy & Hasek, as well as Pronger, MacInnis, Stevens, Brodeur,... today's crew is more Belfour and Niedermayer kind of defending. HHOFers, but a tier or two below. The era is different.

 

[JackSlater]

McDavid undoubtedly the best player ever - TSN.ca

#1 baby.

 

[Regal]

Keep moving those goalposts.

Doughty hasn't played like a top D in 4 years at this point. Kopitar didn't miss a minute and got abused all series. Oh, and yeah...Im sure the mighty Chris Tanev being out is why McDavid is going off against Calgary.

I don't care if he's doing it against beer leaguers, the man is scoring at a 2.30 PPG rate in the playoffs. Not even accounting for eras, that's not far off Gretzky's best of 2.61 PPG in a playoff

Doughty was a top 10 defenseman this year before he was injured