if the players are the product of the game...

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by myrocketsgotcracked, Mar 6, 2005.

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  1. ...and yet they cant bring in enough revenue to cover their own salary and expenses, does that mean they are overpaid?
    if yes, is the cap just a mean to pay the players (as a group) what they are worth?
    if no, where did my logic went astray?

    this is just an honest question and not meant to start any bashing, so please keep your insults to yourself, thanks.
     
  2. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    MAYBE the key is worth to each team ..

    The Leafs made 11 Mil profit last season on a 65 mil Team Salary ... So in Toronto they do bring more then enough revenue to cover all expenses and provide a great return on investment .. Now I can't speak for other teams but your first statement is not league wide as other teams made profit as well .. so you problem is based per city and not league wide .. Even if people think leaf players are over paid .. The leafs Organization is willing to do it and still make money ..
     
  3. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    The players should be on commision for the hockey revenue they bring in. 55% should do it.
     
  4. ScottyBowman

    ScottyBowman Registered User

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    Players should get as much as an owner in a market will pay them.
     
  5. shveik

    shveik Registered User

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    I can't say there is anything wrong with your logic, other than the (implicit) assumption that the cap is the only means of reducing the players pay. Normally the market would take care of that, and the NHL labor market is already restricted.
     
  6. iagreewithidiots

    iagreewithidiots Registered User

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    The NHL would be better off with a cap.

    I have a friend that is a Toronto fan. He got into hockey watching the Penguins. The Pens are still his favorite but he spends plenty of money on Leafs stuff. Weve been to the Hall of Fame and he is planning on taking a trip to Toronto to see a game. Without the Penguins this isnt likely to happen.

    The league as a whole would benefit if all fans thought their favorite team had a realistic chance of winning. I can tell you from MLB experience once fans lose that hope they will start tuning out entirely.

    With a cap some fans would stop watching. Id be willing to bet that there would be more then enough fans coming in to replace them.
     
  7. R0CKET

    R0CKET Registered User

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    They aren't the game IMO.

    I recall that it was some fairly crappy hockey when the replacement referees were in the NHL. Who drafts & develops the new players that come in and carry the game to higher levels? Is a photograph taken with Mike Modano as big of a deal as one holding the Stanley Cup?

    People don't show up to only see players in white play players in Blue.

    They do show up to watch the Leafs play the Rangers contending for the Stanley Cup.
     
  8. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    You mean they should take the $42.5m cap that the owners in the marketplace will pay them?
     
  9. shveik

    shveik Registered User

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    They will take whatever they can negotiate in the market. It will eventually boil down to something. But an alternative to losing 1+ season due to 30 teams negotiating with 700+ players at the same time would of course be each team negotiating individually with each player. That way we do not lose seasons worth.
     
  10. Wetcoaster

    Wetcoaster Guest

    Vancouver made a $30 million profit last year and $20 million the season before.
     
  11. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    That the precise point .. Vancouver makes a ton of money with no Cap and has 100 point regular seasons and just as much chance to win the Cup as any team ..

    Why does the league need to cap that .. If the Nucks spent even 5 mil more and went another round they would make even more profit ..

    A Hard Cap doesn't equal Parity for a Cup it triples Franchise Values and Owners Equity in the team .. Its just Bettman that tell Fans that the Cap Ceiling is reguired but without a Cap floor, some teams will always be rebuiling ..

    From a Business point a View If your Franchise with a Cap Triples in Value from 100 to 300 million, providing a 200 mil net increase in value .. yet everyone focusses on the 9 mil per team average loss that cost of doing business causes ..
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2005
  12. there was a time not too long ago when the canucks almost moved to portland (or some other american city). when a team is winning, everything looks great. even a small market team like calgary (with their cup run) will do well financially if they can make a deep playoff run with a relatively cheap roster. the key is to stay successful while keeping cost down. as a canuck fan, im always worrying that when our team is no longer competitive under the old CBA, we might lose our team.

    back to my original question. if the league as a whole is losing money, will revenue sharing solve the problem? to me, it seems like it'll just spread the loss around so every team lose money. in that case, it really doesnt matter what kind of revenue sharing plan is involved in the new CBA if the players wont agree to lower their cut of the total revenue.
     
  13. futurcorerock

    futurcorerock Registered User

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    The players aren't the product. The product is Ice Hockey. The players are workers who produce Ice Hockey in conjuction with management who organizes those players into a system to produce said product.
     
  14. Weary

    Weary Registered User

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    Then isn't it quite foolish of the owners to spend advertising dollars promoting their workers? Successful companies promote their products, not their workers.
     
  15. LordHelmet

    LordHelmet Registered User

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    Your point is riduculous. By that logic, the beer league that I play in produces the same product that the NHL produced...

    Oh but wait, we don't get 15,000 fans showing up at our games.. Why? Because we aren't NHL quality players... Why don't minor league teams get 15,000 fans at their games? Because they aren't NHL quality players..

    You can go on and on all you want saying that the players aren't the product, but if 'the product' is only produceable by 700 people, then they are as good as the product..
     
  16. SENSible1*

    SENSible1* Guest

    The product is producable by a heck of alot more than 700 people.
     
  17. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    i hate the argument that the players are the product.

    the product is the game of hockey. the NHLPA simply represents the best employees in the world for this industry, which thus creates the best product. one of the main issues is the fact that the players view themselves in this light, and the arrogance of it is absolutely astounding. it is a view that suggests without them there is no sport of hockey, which is absolutely false, you just need to look around to see this.

    part of the problem is obviously the fact that with all the endorsements and everything else, the line between employee and product have been blurred some. certainly in the sphere of individual endorsements and advertising, the players are a product. however, what they should figure out pretty quick is that without the NHL they won't be getting any money from those avenues... maybe that will make the light bulb go off? probably not, they've proven to be pretty stupid throughout this whole thing.

    in any event, we will see the product of hockey in the fall with or without the NHLPA. it will be a lesser product, but the product is still there and hopefully people will pay to see them play because that is about the only voice we the fans have to express to the NHLPA that the crest means more than they do.
     
  18. LordHelmet

    LordHelmet Registered User

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    Actually, I'd say that the product is produceable by a lot LESS than 700 people - I'd say more like 150-200. That represents the cream of the NHL crop, the players that fans recognize and talk about, the players with names that people will pay $100 to wear on their back..

    The rest of the players are essentially filler, along for the ride, and easily replaceable.. Without that top tier though, the product of "Ice Hockey" is a far less valuable than the product of "NHL quality ice hockey"...
     
  19. tantalum

    tantalum Registered User

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    Orca Bay made those profits not the canucks. They are different entities. Canucks profit is part of it but not the only part of it in a relatively busy building.
     
  20. SENSible1*

    SENSible1* Guest

    In a very real sense we are making the same point, but coming at it from different angles.

    After the top 150-200 players, there are likely 1,000+ players who are more or less interchangable.

    I do agree that the product would suffer without the top players, but the league would only be without them for a limited period, as they would return or be replaced by the next generation of stars.
     
  21. dakota

    dakota Registered User

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    the product is the whole event surrounding NHL Hockey,

    the teams... this history of the franchise...
    the arena... its an event going to a major league arena...
    the players...
    if your team is a winning team it becomes the "in" thing to goto...
    this makes up the product...

    i know some people that goto games just because of the networking capabilities... they dont even like hockey...
     
  22. LordHelmet

    LordHelmet Registered User

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    I do agree with that assesment. By no means do I believe that the product is ONLY the players.. If you take away any of those components - the team/history, the arena, or the players - your product (and therefore your profit-generating potential) suffers..

    That's why my opinion is that the NHL with replacement players will fail miserably. Arenas will be half full and fans will expect serious cuts in ticket prices..
     
  23. Homer_J

    Homer_J Registered User

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    I agree with everything you wrote Jester. Very well said.

    If the league were to bring in replacements there would still be a product. The quality of that product would most likely be inferior to what we've seen in previous seasons, but it's safe to say that owners would set ticket prices accordingly. Would I pay NHL prices ($100) to watch replacement hockey? No. But I would pay AHL prices, as I'd expect the product to be on par with that level of hockey.

    I would pay money to watch guys give it their all in a replacement NHL product, long before I'd watch all-stars float around the ice in an NHLPA league.
     
  24. dakota

    dakota Registered User

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    i think it would work as long as the prices are a bit lower... people would support the new players imo ... especially if your team gets on a winning streak... its amazing how we as fans forget things when your team is winning... many goto the games as a form of entertainment as well not just for the hockey... its a night out. I went to the Rogers House Charity event with Kirk Muller and Lindros playing in January at the Corel Centre and it was a fun night out with some buddies... the hockey as so so but it was still a good night out.
     
  25. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Thats right the NHL called the player Auto Workers implying your exact thought that they are interchanable assembly line workers ..

    You know the NHLPA is going to want the NHL to prove that by succeeding with Replacement workers .. They don't believe the NHL will prosper without the stars ..

    THIS IN NOW about PRIDE by the players and NOT MONEY ...
     
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