If Gretzky Started 10 Seasons Earlier

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Guys like Lafleur, Perreault and Dionne were allowed to play 'their game' in the 70's. None of them were expected to be physical and fight because those roles were filled by their teammates. Gretzky would have been able to do the same, and being more more talented than those three would have beat them in the scoring title races about as handily as he buried the competition until Lemieux came around. Whether he gets the MVP's and 200pt seasons would largely be based on the team he ends up on, but IMO he beat's Espo, Lafluer and Dionne's best scoring seasons handily just like he did in the 80's.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Interesting concept. My gut reaction is that he would dominate like he did and rewrite the record book. However, I believe that the Russians had a huge impact on how Gretzky developed his game. I think his father taught him about the Russian way to play. Gretzky was 11 in 1972 so he also had the benefit of applying the skills he saw in the 72 Series to his developing game. So would we have seen the same Gretzky in 69-70? Probably, but...

I don't believe this is true.

In fact, as I recall, when most Canadians were surprised by the practice drills used by the Russians, Gretzky was ho-hum because he had been doing drills similar to that since he was a toddler.

Walter was a bit ahead of his time.

 

[stanleyorbust]

How come no one has brought up the fact that Gretzky was what.. 9 years old in 69/70.. he would have been killed

... Gretzky is a true talent, and its fair to say he changed the game for everyone. If you were to magically drop him into any other decade.. I think he would be just as dominating. At 37 years old he finished the season with 90 pts on a very weak NYR team.. in the middle of the clutch and grab era. To those who suggest he wouldn't survive in the league today, they said the same thing when he was coming into the league. Sure the league has changed, fitness, and goal prevention has taken the lead.. so maybe he doesn't hit 2857 career points.. but I doubt it would all that far off.

 

[Topshelf88]

Exactly. Scotty Bowman was successful because he was Scotty Bowman and not Ken "dump it in even on a 2-on-1" Hitchcock. Only a fool would stifle Gretzky. Besides, the running joke on Lafleur was that he was a natural and even if the Habs were practicing the power play he would be the first one to screw it up because it wasn't his style to be robotic

I think Dryden makes mention of this in his book. Something along the lines of whenever they did go to practice the powerplay, it usually didn't last too long because of what you mentioned.

As for Gretzky starting 10 seasons earlier...I think his numbers would be equal to, if no greater than what they already are now. How often did Lafleur fight? I would imagine that if anybody laid a finger on Gretzky there would've been somebody on his team back then to protect him. He is a once in a generation, maybe even a once in a lifetime talent...it is highly unlikely he would have spent his career in the minors.

Seeing him play against Orr would have been unreal by the way.

 

[85highlander]

Guys like Lafleur, Perreault and Dionne were allowed to play 'their game' in the 70's. None of them were expected to be physical and fight because those roles were filled by their teammates. Gretzky would have been able to do the same, and being more more talented than those three would have beat them in the scoring title races about as handily as he buried the competition until Lemieux came around. Whether he gets the MVP's and 200pt seasons would largely be based on the team he ends up on, but IMO he beat's Espo, Lafluer and Dionne's best scoring seasons handily just like he did in the 80's.

Maybe the others on your list, but no way is he lapping Espo like the others. I'm not saying Gretzky wouldn't win the Art Ross, but not over the same % as he did in the eighties. He would have to DOUBLE his production.

Why? Because Espo actually scored AT A HIGHER % over his positional peers than even Gretzky did in the eighties.


When looking at the top percentage leaders over their positional peers (using adjusted stats) from the center position, Gretzky holds 2 of the top four spots, but Esposito holds the top spot overall:

1) Esposito Phil 1970-71 147 pts 79.27%
Ullman Norm 1970-71 82 pts

2) Gretzky Wayne 1983-84 164 pts 72.63%
Stastny Peter 1983-84 95 pts

3) Gretzky Wayne 1986-87 157 pts 70.65%
Lemieux Mario 1986-87 92 pts

4) Esposito Phil 1973-74 135 pts 66.67%
Clarke Bobby 1973-74 81 pts


Of course, if you flip Espo with Gretzky, then all bets would be off, as Orr would be feeding Gretzky and vice versa...

 

[shazariahl]

I don't believe this is true.

In fact, as I recall, when most Canadians were surprised by the practice drills used by the Russians, Gretzky was ho-hum because he had been doing drills similar to that since he was a toddler.

Walter was a bit ahead of his time.

Correct. Gretzky mentions this story on the Ultimate Gretzky DVD set, during his interview.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Maybe the others on your list, but no way is he lapping Espo like the others. I'm not saying Gretzky wouldn't win the Art Ross, but not over the same % as he did in the eighties. He would have to DOUBLE his production.

Why? Because Espo actually scored AT A HIGHER % over his positional peers than even Gretzky did in the eighties.

Thanks for the analysis. I didn't mean he'd win by the exact same percentages, but I can see where you'd get that from my post. I certainly think he'd win the scoring title for most of the 70's and by alot in most years, but he probably doesn't win his first until 71-72 if the hypothetical start date to his career is 69-70.

 

[Stephen]

Considering that the NHL was diluted from the WHA rivalry, I'm pretty sure Gretzky would have torched the NHL in the 70s.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Maybe the others on your list, but no way is he lapping Espo like the others. I'm not saying Gretzky wouldn't win the Art Ross, but not over the same % as he did in the eighties. He would have to DOUBLE his production.

Why? Because Espo actually scored AT A HIGHER % over his positional peers than even Gretzky did in the eighties.


When looking at the top percentage leaders over their positional peers (using adjusted stats) from the center position, Gretzky holds 2 of the top four spots, but Esposito holds the top spot overall:

1) Esposito Phil 1970-71 147 pts 79.27%
Ullman Norm 1970-71 82 pts

2) Gretzky Wayne 1983-84 164 pts 72.63%
Stastny Peter 1983-84 95 pts

3) Gretzky Wayne 1986-87 157 pts 70.65%
Lemieux Mario 1986-87 92 pts

4) Esposito Phil 1973-74 135 pts 66.67%
Clarke Bobby 1973-74 81 pts


Of course, if you flip Espo with Gretzky, then all bets would be off, as Orr would be feeding Gretzky and vice versa...

Why are you omitting wingers from the analysis?

 

[85highlander]

Why are you omitting wingers from the analysis?

Because Espo's scoring was more remarkable than any of the stated wingers. And I stated it was strictly positional.

I think Esposito's feats were nearly as impressive from a % perspective as Gretzky's were...at least from an adjusted viewpoint. I am not claiming Esposito is the better player, only that Gretzky's Herculean scoring feats were foreshadowed by Esposito for a couple of years.

Gretzky obviously sustained it for much longer. And if he had Orr as a teammate he would have surpassed it.

 

[canucks4ever]

Gretzky vs 1979 Trottier would have been an interesting hart race.

 

[Up the Irons]

what if... 99 haters stopped trying convoluted and round about ways to discredit Gretz and just admitted that Wayne Gretzky was WAY MOTHERF---KING better than their hero and anyone before or after?

 

[Dalton]

LOL

Despite finishing thirteenth in GP, 300 behind Howe, Messier and Francis, He had the highest PPG at 1.92, Howe next at 1.88 and then Dionne at 1.31 when it begins to tighten up. First in points at 2857, next up Messier at 1887, when it begins to tighten up. Goals 894, then Howe at 801, Brett Hull at 741 when it begins to tighten up a bit. Finally assists at 1963. More than the next guys point total. Exactly what he did just about every season he played. More assists then the next guy in the Art Ross competition had points.

The guy was a maniac.

Only Messier has more playoff points than Gretzky has playoff assists. Yet Gretzky is 15th in PO GP.

At some point reasonable people have to acknowledge that this attempt to place Gretzky at the level of today's top three, five or ten players is somewhat ridiculous if not outright absurd. Trashing an entire generation (more actually) of players just to minimalize the great one begins to look petty at worst and argumentative at best.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Maybe the others on your list, but no way is he lapping Espo like the others. I'm not saying Gretzky wouldn't win the Art Ross, but not over the same % as he did in the eighties. He would have to DOUBLE his production.

Why? Because Espo actually scored AT A HIGHER % over his positional peers than even Gretzky did in the eighties.


When looking at the top percentage leaders over their positional peers (using adjusted stats) from the center position, Gretzky holds 2 of the top four spots, but Esposito holds the top spot overall:

1) Esposito Phil 1970-71 147 pts 79.27%
Ullman Norm 1970-71 82 pts

2) Gretzky Wayne 1983-84 164 pts 72.63%
Stastny Peter 1983-84 95 pts

3) Gretzky Wayne 1986-87 157 pts 70.65%
Lemieux Mario 1986-87 92 pts

4) Esposito Phil 1973-74 135 pts 66.67%
Clarke Bobby 1973-74 81 pts


Of course, if you flip Espo with Gretzky, then all bets would be off, as Orr would be feeding Gretzky and vice versa...

No offense but put the 4 guys that were 2nd in a group and which one does not belong? Yes that's right Norm Ullman

Bottom line is that statistical oddities like this don't add much to the conversation IMO and should be viewed as trivia.

Now if you want to take the average % over the 2nd place guy over time, and no one did this more than Wayne either, which would be more important by a ton. I'll take each players 5 best year peak and run a quick comp.


Gretzky 82-86 1036 points 71.5%
Peter Statsny 604

Phil 71-75 687 52.3%

Bobby Clarke 451

See the difference here?

 

[Jets4Life]

Gretzky would have run over the league easily in the 70's. With the WHA as competition, the talent pool was diluted. 30 teams in the mid 70's? Gretzky would have had a few 100+ goal seasons if he was playing on Boston, Philly, Buffalo, Montreal, or the Islanders.

Esposito, Lafleur, Clarke, etc. Were ok. However, they never came close to Gretzky in his prime.