If Gordie Howe was born in 1995, would he be a top 50 player today?

If Gordie Howe was born in 1995, would he be a top 50 player today?


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WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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Yeah why wouldn’t he? It’s not like the other guys from his era didn’t want to be really good, he was just head and shoulders above his entire era. Generational talent would have thrived in any era and obviously assuming he comes up the same way any player that reaches the nhl born in 1995 did with all the extra stuff.
 

BagHead

Registered User
Dec 23, 2010
6,548
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Minneapolis, MN
impossible to know, but he gets the benefit of the doubt.

This is why I don’t like Gretzky dominance debates. Lot more parity nowadays, but people don’t wanna hear that.
This is an interesting topic to me. You're right that there is a lot more parity, because the "unskilled" players have become far more skilled than they once were. I was watching a Michael Mauboussin lecture recently, and the he talked about the "Paradox of Skill" (which he semi-stole from Stephen J Gould), which simply states that as skill increases, luck's effect on outcomes also increases.

What Gould had found was that batting averages of the top baseball players came down from one era to the next, as the skill level of the rest of the league rose. The result is that a player going on a batting streak is more luck based than it used to be. This means the most-skilled players are still the most skilled, but their results are lower than they would have been in a previous era, if the game itself doesn't change. And this is the case for baseball, a game which introduces far less luck-based results than hockey.

Another interesting point brought up by Mauboussin was reversion to the mean. Basically, the more skilled a player is, the slower their reversion to the mean is. This intuitively makes sense when we compare something like a highly skilled player who has scored 50 goals to a one-trick pony who scored 50 goals (in the same era), Ovechkin vs Cheechoo. The reversion to the mean was swift with Cheechoo, but has come much slower with Ovechkin. So, if this is true, and Gordie Howe's reversion to the mean was so slow that he was still a halfway effective NHL player in his 50's, it seems to me that there's a high chance he'd be an elite player today were he born in 1995 and given the same chances to succeed.

Combining these ideas, it seems to imply that Gordie Howe would, both, be an elite player today were he born in 1995, and not score as many points as he did in the 40's, 50's, and 60's... and 70's (Jesus)... and 1980 (Christ). In the Gretzky debate, this puts me firmly in the group that thinks he'd be the best player in the league (McDavid might be close), but would also not be scoring 200 points.
 
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Perfect_Drug

Registered User
Mar 24, 2006
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I think so?

I mean Howe was sublimely skilled, but that wasn't why he was the force he was.
He dominated 'violent goon hockey', where he was the most physically imposing menace ever to lace em up.

Back then you had to get past a maze of guys who were legally allowed to headshot you. Players could NOT skate with their heads down through the middle like they do now.

Todays game really closely resembles an evolution of European / Russian hockey where it's much more systems based. More reliance on speed and finesse.


Howe was more in the mold of Messier/Lindros, at a time when the game favored Messier/Lindros type players. It's really hard to place what Howe's impact would be.

Even if we could imagine Gordie Howe as someone like Tom Wilson but with the skills to score 50 goals 110 points (or whatever era-adjustment you want to make), I'm not sure his type of game suits the NHL today like it did back then.


If you showed todays highlights to an NHL fan back in Howe's era, they would probably think it looks more like Bandy than hockey.

 

Hanji

Registered User
Oct 14, 2009
3,164
2,660
Wisconsin
I think so?

I mean Howe was sublimely skilled, but that wasn't why he was the force he was.
He dominated 'violent goon hockey', where he was the most physically imposing menace ever to lace em up.

Back then you had to get past a maze of guys who were legally allowed to headshot you. Players could NOT skate with their heads down through the middle like they do now.

Todays game really closely resembles an evolution of European / Russian hockey where it's much more systems based. More reliance on speed and finesse.


Howe was more in the mold of Messier/Lindros, at a time when the game favored Messier/Lindros type players. It's really hard to place what Howe's impact would be.

Even if we could imagine Gordie Howe as someone like Tom Wilson but with the skills to score 50 goals 110 points (or whatever era-adjustment you want to make), I'm not sure his type of game suits the NHL today like it did back then.


If you showed todays highlights to an NHL fan back in Howe's era, they would probably think it looks more like Bandy than hockey.



Not exactly. The game of the 50s/60s was dirtier, but it wasn't more physical than today.

Watch a game from back then; there's more hacking, slashing and elbowing, but it's more wide-open with a distinct lack of high-impact collisions.

Equipment played a part in this. With flimsy low-quality padding, a player couldnt go flying into an opponent full-speed without hurting himself as well.
 
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Perfect_Drug

Registered User
Mar 24, 2006
15,566
11,908
Montreal
Not exactly. The game of the 50s/60s was dirtier, but it wasn't more physical than today.

Watch a game from back then; there's more hacking, slashing and elbowing, but it's more wide-open with a distinct lack of high-impact collisions.

Equipment played a part in this. With flimsy low-quality padding, a player couldnt go flying into an opponent full-speed without hurting himself as well.
I've seen quite a few of the most famous "Classic Games" they used to play on TV.
It already looked unrecognizable to the 80's hockey I grew up with (starting with nobody wearing a helmet).

Maybe it's the games I watched but it certainly seemed way more physical? like the post-save scrums weren't the hug-fests they are now. They were frequently started with a punch to the face of an un-helmeted player that broke out into bench brawls with 1 ref trying to manage everything.

I remember several bench-brawls growing up, but that stopped late 80s when they made it automatic 10 game suspension with a hefty fine.


But yeah, Gordie Howe was the king of 'that kind of hockey'. He was just imposing and intimidating.
It's so massively different than the kind of game today, it's hard to imagine the kind of impact he would have on todays game.
 

BadgerBruce

Registered User
Aug 8, 2013
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2,196
Gordie Howe’s career is the reason so many of us believe that the true greats would shine in any period of hockey history. That’s because he did — it’s not a hypothetical.

Rookie in 1946 playing against Dit Clapper, a 1920s player. Finishes up in 1980 playing against Gretzky and Bourque and all the young guns. By the end of the 1940s, Howe was a star. By the end of the 1950s, many judged him the greatest of all-time. By the end of the 60s, people could not believe that a man his age could still be one of the best in the game. And then to cap it off by playing with his sons in the 1970s, and to show that greatness doesn’t have the expiration date most people think by starring against the Soviets in the Summit Series II? Back to the NHL for a FIFTH decade at 51 years old and potting 15 goals?

The greats could star in any era. Gordie proves it. His greatest attribute was adaptability. It HAD to be for him to shine through so many consecutive eras.
 
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powerbomb

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Apr 6, 2013
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I can't wrap my mind around any argument that says he isn't. He's one of the pillars of hockey, famous for his indomitable spirit, yet... what, if he grew up in today's culture, he's weaker for it? Top 50 is a very wide lane to give an all-time great. Just a baffling question from the start.
 
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