IceArizona - Year One: Performance Evaluation

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CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
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Bay Area, CA
^^ Unbelievable. They folded up & fell apart like a cheap cardboard suitcase in the rain. Drop the Gauntlet & file suit, the bell rings and what do they do? Concede, give up the fight, put their tales between their legs & in leaving "There is no question the city didnt want the voters to get their say on this"...

My understanding was that the petitions were severely flawed. Not technical errors like the ones crooked Craig rejected and lost on. These were most likely fraudulent signatures. Lots and lots of fraudulent signatures. The more appropriate suit is probably lobbyist v petition collection company.

It's really kind of irrelevant though. If the electorate wants the tax repealed, all they have to do is flip the Knaack and Martinez seats to more honorable/ethical people and they can write it out of the charter just as easily as the Glendale Four wrote it in. It's not going to be as much fun observing this matter without Manny and Yvonne. They walk off the stage and directly into the Stupid & Corrupt Politician Hall of Fame. :handclap:
 

Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
7,276
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Outside GZ
My understanding was that the petitions were severely flawed. Not technical errors like the ones crooked Craig rejected and lost on. These were most likely fraudulent signatures. Lots and lots of fraudulent signatures. The more appropriate suit is probably lobbyist v petition collection company.

It's really kind of irrelevant though. If the electorate wants the tax repealed, all they have to do is flip the Knaack and Martinez seats to more honorable/ethical people and they can write it out of the charter just as easily as the Glendale Four wrote it in. It's not going to be as much fun observing this matter without Manny and Yvonne. They walk off the stage and directly into the Stupid & Corrupt Politician Hall of Fame. :handclap:

I'm sure when all is said and done, Knaack and Martinez will not be the only ones there... ;)

hall-of-shame.jpg
 

awfulwaffle

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
11,906
1,933
Dallas, TX
So I take it.... as a Coyotes fan.... you don't care if Glendale finances get so bad they can no longer pay the $15M annual costs of the AMF and default.... possibly triggering the franchise to move from Arizona??


:facepalm:

I'm not a Glendale resident, so why should I care about the taxes and public services? As a Coyote fan, I would like them to stay here in Phoenix. How that happens, I don't care. The only way it would affect me is through taxes in Phoenix itself.

Same as any other person that posts on this board that "cares" about Glendale citizens. In the end, nobody really cares.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,215
My understanding was that the petitions were severely flawed. Not technical errors like the ones crooked Craig rejected and lost on. These were most likely fraudulent signatures. Lots and lots of fraudulent signatures. The more appropriate suit is probably lobbyist v petition collection company...... It's really kind of irrelevant though.....

.... yes, I read that as well, ex-cons out running around with Petitions in hand & so on... and yes, I did imagine orange jumpsuited canvassers goin door~door with DOC in big black letters on the back... highly volatile 250 pound Torpedo's with ink all over their skulls instead of hair & 1000 yard stares, casing your house or condo from the front step.... really rather handy, keeping track of them, which houses & streets theyd covered I suppose..... would not put it past anyone involved or active for one minute that yes, they did mess up the Petition Big Time but still, to that degree?.... anyhoo, it is what it is..... and yep, irrelevant now.

I'm sure when all is said and done, Knaack and Martinez will not be the only ones there...

When exactly are the upcoming elections Llama?
 
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Tommy Hawk

Registered User
May 27, 2006
4,223
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I'm not a Glendale resident, so why should I care about the taxes and public services? As a Coyote fan, I would like them to stay here in Phoenix. How that happens, I don't care. The only way it would affect me is through taxes in Phoenix itself.

Same as any other person that posts on this board that "cares" about Glendale citizens. In the end, nobody really cares.

If I lived in Glendale I still wouldn't care.

You should care because this is how government operates. I could care less about the citizens of Glendale. They elected these idiots and don't care about their taxes going up and services being cut.

Those that do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

How do you Phoenix residents like paying for the albatrosses of MLB and NBA?
 
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Summer Rose

Red Like Roses
Sponsor
May 3, 2012
92,002
23,541
Gainesville, Florida
You should care because this is how government operates. I could care less about the citizens of Glendale. They elected these idiots and don't care about their taxes going up and services being cut.

Those that do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

How do you Phoenix residents like paying for the albatrosses of MLB and NBA?

Doesn't bother me in the least bit and I don't go to their games either.
 
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Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
7,276
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Outside GZ
When exactly are the upcoming elections Llama?

Same as the general election, November 4.

The primary only declares an outright 'winner' when someone receives 50% + 1.

No candidate in any of the three districts, Cholla, Barrel, and Ocotillo, did that.

In November, for each district, the candidate receiving the highest percentage of votes will be declared the winner.
 

Glacial

Registered User
Jan 8, 2013
1,704
116
^^ Unbelievable. They folded up & fell apart like a cheap cardboard suitcase in the rain. Drop the Gauntlet & file suit, the bell rings and what do they do? Concede, give up the fight, put their tales between their legs & in leaving "There is no question the city didnt want the voters to get their say on this".... like, duuuh. Thank you Captain Obvious. Maybe whats really going on is that Arizona Free Enterprise has gotten themselves into hot water over expenditures, having exceeded the legal maximums in the State yes? And that as a result of that, cant cover the legal fee's. So how about some candor on that subject Mr. LaSota. The real reason the case was dropped was because his fee's & that of the other Attorneys' wasnt going to be covered. Thats what Im thinkin. All that bark & no bite? Claimed they'd cross~referenced the signatories to the Petition with Glendale Voter Lists? Only 7000 of the app 21,000 collected claimed valid? What a farce. Complete joke. Everyone involved here & for years absolutely toothless. Goldwater, the AG's Offices, the State Bar Association, just everyone. And then they wonder why & how things like this can happen? How a municipality of less than 300,000 could be carrying a debt larger than some countries? Just crazy.

This saga has been utterly insane. What a cast of characters! :laugh: Seriously, they could make a movie, a miniseries of this and label it "based on a true story" and no one but mega-thread posters would believe it. I wonder if something else will happen and yet the team stays, like Glendale going bankrupt *and* Ice Arizona hitting $50M losses yet something strange happens and the team stays put because Fortress ends up in trouble or gets bought out by a Chilean billionaire or if the team does relocate, it ends up relocating further south.
 

CC96

Serious Offender
Nov 6, 2012
18,098
1,029
Mesa, Arizona
You should care because this is how government operates. I could care less about the citizens of Glendale. They elected these idiots and don't care about their taxes going up and services being cut.

Those that do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

How do you Phoenix residents like paying for the albatrosses of MLB and NBA?

Don't care.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,878
29,086
Buzzing BoH
I'm not a Glendale resident, so why should I care about the taxes and public services? As a Coyote fan, I would like them to stay here in Phoenix. How that happens, I don't care. The only way it would affect me is through taxes in Phoenix itself.

Same as any other person that posts on this board that "cares" about Glendale citizens. In the end, nobody really cares.

But we aren't talking about the citizens of Glendale... we're talking about the city as a whole.

If it weren't for Glendale stepping up and mortgaging their finances 12 years ago the Coyotes would have been in Portland, Oregon. And how should I put this........ because NO OTHER CITY IN THE STATE OF ARIZONA WANTED TO.

But I guess you don't care about that either.

Thanks for reaffirming the stereotype.
 

enarwpg

Registered User
Jun 21, 2011
706
7
Winnipeg
I'm not a Glendale resident, so why should I care about the taxes and public services? As a Coyote fan, I would like them to stay here in Phoenix. How that happens, I don't care. The only way it would affect me is through taxes in Phoenix itself.

Same as any other person that posts on this board that "cares" about Glendale citizens. In the end, nobody really cares.

Absolutely true and the reason why so many (at last count most everyone minus The Legend) want IA to fail, COG to implode, Coyotes to leave in the dark of the night, etc.

But the longer it takes the better, because basically the story is so overwhelmingly captivating .... back room deals, countless poorly heeled suitors, deals in which the city buys back rights to a parking lot they own, cupcakes, HUGE AMF's, faulty fax machines, Ice Edge Clowns ( HAhaHA ), etc.... It can't get better than this....

This whole saga really is mind boggling.... but ever so interesting.....
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
You should care because this is how government operates.

I don't know, I mean, nobody is required to care. I think that I would stop far short of telling anyone what they should or should not care about. Besides, being apathetic about Glendale's financial situation seems perfectly reasonable. For me, the more fascinating human element has been the cognitive disorders of some observers. When someone drops in to promote the Coyotes as economically beneficial to Glendale, that's when the Wow-Meter gets pinned in the red. Confirmation bias is really fascinating - especially when it means getting economic input from the demonstrably corrupt (Beasley, Tindall, Sherwood) or demonstrably ignorant (Clark, Sherhammer, Martinez) or a combination of the two (Knaack, Frate, Chavira).

Anyway, I think it's fair for anyone to take the "I don't really care how much Glendale flushes on this franchise. I like watching hockey so I'm cool with it." It's the people who claim the Coyotes relationship with Glendale is economically beneficial to the city that are psychos.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,075
33,132
I don't know, I mean, nobody is required to care. I think that I would stop far short of telling anyone what they should or should not care about. Besides, being apathetic about Glendale's financial situation seems perfectly reasonable. For me, the more fascinating human element has been the cognitive disorders of some observers. When someone drops in to promote the Coyotes as economically beneficial to Glendale, that's when the Wow-Meter gets pinned in the red. Confirmation bias is really fascinating - especially when it means getting economic input from the demonstrably corrupt (Beasley, Tindall, Sherwood) or demonstrably ignorant (Clark, Sherhammer, Martinez) or a combination of the two (Knaack, Frate, Chavira).

Anyway, I think it's fair for anyone to take the "I don't really care how much Glendale flushes on this franchise. I like watching hockey so I'm cool with it." It's the people who claim the Coyotes relationship with Glendale is economically beneficial to the city that are psychos.

There's an interesting progression that I've observed in the perspectives of the most ardent supporters...

Stage 1 - The Coyotes and Arena will be a huge boon to Glendale, bringing in more than $500 million.

Stage 2 - It is financially wise, on balance, for the COG to support the Coyotes.

Stage 3 - Well, even if it costs them money, supporting the Coyotes will lose less money than the alternatives.

Stage 4 (after the deal is done) - Who cares if Glendale suffers crippling financial losses, as long as they subsidize my hockey fandom.
 

jetfan77*

Guest
You guy's last year averaged just over 5000 a game you lose between 45-50 million every year. STOP THE MADNESS ALREADY.
 

Bonsai Tree

Turning a new leaf
Feb 2, 2014
9,243
4,583
I don't know, I mean, nobody is required to care. I think that I would stop far short of telling anyone what they should or should not care about. Besides, being apathetic about Glendale's financial situation seems perfectly reasonable. For me, the more fascinating human element has been the cognitive disorders of some observers. When someone drops in to promote the Coyotes as economically beneficial to Glendale, that's when the Wow-Meter gets pinned in the red. Confirmation bias is really fascinating - especially when it means getting economic input from the demonstrably corrupt (Beasley, Tindall, Sherwood) or demonstrably ignorant (Clark, Sherhammer, Martinez) or a combination of the two (Knaack, Frate, Chavira).

Anyway, I think it's fair for anyone to take the "I don't really care how much Glendale flushes on this franchise. I like watching hockey so I'm cool with it." It's the people who claim the Coyotes relationship with Glendale is economically beneficial to the city that are psychos.

So tell us what you really think! That's quite a generalization. Some might say that the relationship is beneficial out of trust that the city and hockey team know what they're doing. Some might be privy to information not publicly available. Some might even be disingenuous. Some might even take that position out of annoyance with what they read on this board.

As for me, I really don't know if the relationship is, or even can be beneficial to both side. I have a nagging suspicion that Glendale might have gotten too deep to simply cut the rope and now looks for the least negative outcome. What I do know that I cannot trust what is published in the media.
 

ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
30,112
277
So much rhetoric going around over the years about the "doom and gloom" Glendale is supposedly facing, but yet, the City is still showing to hold its own without resorting to extreme drastic measures at this time. I'm not saying the worst will never happen but until I see more concrete examples that the city is going to be destroyed, this doom and gloom talk spin just becomes more and more laughable.
 

Tommy Hawk

Registered User
May 27, 2006
4,223
104
Doesn't bother me in the least bit and I don't go to their games either.

Don't care.

So you don't care that you pay more money in taxes (sales, etc.) higher COL, etc. to subsidize professional sports teams that you do not even go and see? Great. Since you don't care about paying more in taxes I will send you my tax bills. :)


I don't know, I mean, nobody is required to care. I think that I would stop far short of telling anyone what they should or should not care about. Besides, being apathetic about Glendale's financial situation seems perfectly reasonable. For me, the more fascinating human element has been the cognitive disorders of some observers. When someone drops in to promote the Coyotes as economically beneficial to Glendale, that's when the Wow-Meter gets pinned in the red. Confirmation bias is really fascinating - especially when it means getting economic input from the demonstrably corrupt (Beasley, Tindall, Sherwood) or demonstrably ignorant (Clark, Sherhammer, Martinez) or a combination of the two (Knaack, Frate, Chavira).

Anyway, I think it's fair for anyone to take the "I don't really care how much Glendale flushes on this franchise. I like watching hockey so I'm cool with it." It's the people who claim the Coyotes relationship with Glendale is economically beneficial to the city that are psychos.

Nobody is required to care about paying more in taxes but they should. If they do not care about government spending whatever they want on whatever they want and making the citizens pay for it and the citizens don't care, oh well, but they SHOULD care.


So much rhetoric going around over the years about the "doom and gloom" Glendale is supposedly facing, but yet, the City is still showing to hold its own without resorting to extreme drastic measures at this time. I'm not saying the worst will never happen but until I see more concrete examples that the city is going to be destroyed, this doom and gloom talk spin just becomes more and more laughable.

So significantly cutting city services is not extreme drastic measures? significantly raising costs for other city services is not extreme drastic measures? What do you consider extreme drastic measures? Plopping a significant sales tax increase? Filing for bankruptcy? Laying off city workers?

:sarcasm:
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,878
29,086
Buzzing BoH
Someone gave the actual figures on attendance at least. Are you just making up numbers as you go along?

IMNSHO it's a byproduct of all the current rumor mongering over expansion/relocation talk.

As a Coyotes fan, I can either look at this from a head-in-the-sand perspective.... as in "I don't care if Glendale becomes a ghost town as long as I can still have my hockey team".

Or..... I can look at it from a blind faith perspective that "They aren't moving because they're going turn this all around... you wait and see".

Or I can look at it from a realistic perspective that "They've finally got the three things needed to succeed (stable ownership, facility, decent on-ice product) but there are a ton of factors involved in this equation, of which any one can cause it all to come crashing down."

For the moment I'm choosing the latter.
 

ClassLessCoyote

Staying classy
Jun 10, 2009
30,112
277
So significantly cutting city services is not extreme drastic measures?

If you ask me, such services should be cut anyways all throughout the United States. Libraries are pretty much useless today due to the rise of internet use and cheaper ability for others to get their hands on a computer. Firefighting? Even cities who are properly run are relying on other fire departments to put out fires more and more. Police? Police are all over the place thanks in part to the growing police state and the police becoming militarized so it's not like the city needs to even have its own city force. In fact many cities and town don't even have their own police but rely on either the state or county police for law enforcement. Malibu California for example relies on the LA County Sheriff for protecting and serving the city.
What do you consider extreme drastic measures? Filing for bankruptcy?


:sarcasm:

Yes and trying to get either the county or state to take over control. The state taking over control could happen if we see a major political shift in the next few or even couple of elections for that matter.
 

jetfan77*

Guest
you mean Fugu the 14000 tickets the averaged last year come on i'm talking about real butts in the seats. Arizona last year gave away 2500 free tickets a game and sold 8000 corporate tickets .Last year they added these 10500 tickets to their attendance records. last year they averaged just over 5000 actual people a game last year.
 

Desert Ice 11

I'm here!
Aug 9, 2012
3,472
96
Tempe
you mean Fugu the 14000 tickets the averaged last year come on i'm talking about real butts in the seats. Arizona last year gave away 2500 free tickets a game and sold 8000 corporate tickets .Last year they added these 10500 tickets to their attendance records. last year they averaged just over 5000 actual people a game last year.

Feels like some fuzzy math

 
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