I wish we missed the playoffs or lost 4-0 to Ana

[Flowah]

I agree with the spirit of this post.

I wish there was a way to issue a wakeup call to Holland about this team and its misuse of the talent it has down in the AHL. But I don't think missing the playoffs, or even making it and losing in a sweep to the Ducks would have been that wakeup call. He seems pretty stubborn about this whole thing.

I'm not upset about washed up vets. I'm upset about the sandbagging of the young talent.

 

[Heaton]

Just as a side to the anger, it's very hard to win these days. There's been two teams in the west the past few years who have won a round in the playoffs in consecutive years, LA and Nashville. Same thing in the East where the last two years the only team who won a playoff round in back to back years was the Rangers.

Holland needs to improve this team, no doubt. But I think the issue is Samulesson and Bertuzzi, not Cleary. Like it or not, Cleary did his job, but his spot looks bad because we have Samuelsson and Bertuzzi under contract.

 

[Heaton]

I agree with the spirit of this post.

I wish there was a way to issue a wakeup call to Holland about this team and its misuse of the talent it has down in the AHL. But I don't think missing the playoffs, or even making it and losing in a sweep to the Ducks would have been that wakeup call. He seems pretty stubborn about this whole thing.

I'm not upset about washed up vets. I'm upset about the sandbagging of the young talent.

We lost in 5 noncompetitive games against a Nashville team last year who got smoked by the Phoenix Coyotes who didn't even make the playoffs this year. There is no panic, the good teams aren't reactionary they're proactive.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

What facts are you referring to?

Ken Holland could have had a better team if he had played the prospects sooner. Instead he chose to bring in garbage washed up vetearns which prevented the prospects from gaining valuable experience and improving as NHL hockey players. See Brendan Smith. He was probably the biggest reason the Wings lost to the Hawks. Imagine if he had played his rookie year last year instead of wasting another year of his career in the AHL where he just coasted and learned nothing.

Hawks are in their second Stanley Cup Finals in four years. Their system is working.

The past five years have been abysmal. Since 08-09 Ken Holland has slowly dismantled a cup winning team and reduced it into a 1st/2nd round exit team. (Looking forward to hear about parity and how hard it is to win when the two teams in the SCF are about to play in their second Cup Finals in four years. Parity is a nice word lazy GM's can parrot off to their fan base to explain why he did a terrible job.

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!

There is no doubt in my mind that the Wings could have iced a better team this year if the prospects had been given more ice time.

 

[HTT3*]

Just as a side to the anger, it's very hard to win these days. There's been two teams in the west the past few years who have won a round in the playoffs in consecutive years, LA and Nashville. Same thing in the East where the last two years the only team who won a playoff round in back to back years was the Rangers.

Holland needs to improve this team, no doubt. But I think the issue is Samulesson and Bertuzzi, not Cleary. Like it or not, Cleary did his job, but his spot looks bad because we have Samuelsson and Bertuzzi under contract.

Yup, I touched on this in my last post

I'd be interested in hearing about a more consistent team the past 4 or 5 years who never had a top 15 draft pick. Can you name one?

• Chicago? Nope, 1st round exit in 2010 (and are stacked from tanking for 60 years)

• Penguins? Nope, 1st round exit in 2011 (and are stacked from tanking for 20 years)

• Boston? Nope, didn't they choke in 2009 and 2010, and 1st round exit 2012

• Canucks? Nope, 1st round exit in 2012 (and are stacked from sucking for so long)

 

[HTT3*]

Hawks are in their second Stanley Cup Finals in four years. Their system is working.

Jonathan Toews; selected 3rd overall, 2006 Chicago Blackhawks
Patrick Kane; selected 1st overall, 2007 Chicago Blackhawks
Brent Seabrook; selected 14th overall, 2003 Chicago Blackhawks

Yup, there system is working

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Jonathan Toews; selected 3rd overall, 2006 Chicago Blackhawks
Patrick Kane; selected 1st overall, 2007 Chicago Blackhawks
Brent Seabrook; selected 14th overall, 2003 Chicago Blackhawks

Yup, there system is working

It is working. The goal is to win the Stanley Cup. They are four games away.

How are the Wings doing?

My profile picture shows exactly how they are doing.

 

[ricky0034]

I honestly believe that someone like Landon Ferraro would get a legit chance at making the team out of camp on more teams than not(and when I say a legit chance I mean just that not a lip service "chance")

meanwhile the Wings probably won't even give him a lip service "chance" and hold down guys like Tatar until they literally can't be sent down anymore for the sake of keeping washed up old guys around

it just makes everything feel so....stale

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I honestly believe that someone like Landon Ferraro would get a legit chance at making the team out of camp on more teams than not(and when I say a legit chance I mean just that not a lip service "chance")

meanwhile the Wings probably won't even give him a lip service "chance" and hold down guys like Tatar until they literally can't be sent down anymore for the sake of keeping washed up old guys around

it just makes everything feel so....stale

Yeah, but they lost in seven games to the Hawks.

Totally worth it.

 

[Vladdy84]

Cleary has been really good for us and will continue to be good for us. I see no problem re-signing him, he's a big part of this team's success.

Are you real?

 

[HTT3*]

It is working. The goal is to win the Stanley Cup. They are four games away.

How are the Wings doing?

My profile picture shows exactly how they are doing.

How do you convince Babcock, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and all the other players "okay boys, we need a 1st pick this year, a 3rd pick next year and the 14th pick the year after, so go out there and suck!, because that is the HFboards way of doing things, just play to suck!"

Should Illitch give bonuses to Babcock, Datsyuk and Zetterberg for every game they lose, and charge them a $200,000 penalty for every game they win? How does this world of tanking work in your fantasy land?

I prefer Ken Hollands way of competing. You point to how Chicago is 4 wins away from winning it all, but they got a lucky deflection to even advance. Wings didn't get that lucky deflection so they have to go home. Bounces happen.

But your theory is tanking for 5 to 50 years for top draft picks. Interesting. Glad you have no authority in the franchise whatsoever. I am also sure Babcock, Zetterberg and Datsyuk (and even Lidstrom) are all happy you have no authority, you'd bankrupt the team.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

How do you convince Babcock, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and all the other players "okay boys, we need a 1st pick this year, a 3rd pick next year and the 14th pick the year after, so go out there and suck!, because that is the HFboards way of doing things, just play to suck!"

Should Illitch give bonuses to Babcock, Datsyuk and Zetterberg for every game they lose, and charge them a $200,000 penalty for every game they win? How does this world of tanking work in your fantasy land?

I prefer Ken Hollands way of competing. You point to how Chicago is 4 wins away from winning it all, but they got a lucky deflection to even advance. Wings didn't get that lucky deflection so they have to go home. Bounces happen.

But your theory is tanking for 5 to 50 years for top draft picks. Interesting. Glad you have no authority in the franchise whatsoever. I am also sure Babcock, Zetterberg and Datsyuk (and even Lidstrom) are all happy you have no authority, you'd bankrupt the team.

Wings got a mulligan and still lost the series. They managed to lose game seven against the Hawks TWICE.

It's real simple. Stop rewarding washed up veterans with roster spots and start playing the prospects.

Wings would have been a worse team this year if Bertuzzi and Sammy ended up being healthy.

Signing garbage washed up veterans is a one way ticket to mediocrity in today's NHL.

 

[bababooeyII]

I enjoyed the playoff run too much to wish it ended sooner. Having said all that, if Holland re-signs Cleary than he clearly has an issue with re-treads. Cleary was gassed as the season wore on, he could not keep up. how much does anyone believe he has left in the tank? And we have to sit around and watch him for another few seasons? The reason you keep your draft picks and develop is so when guys like Cleary's contract runs out you have a few guys who can replace him. What happens is that Holland's devotion to his veterans means that there is no room for the prospects at all. Then it becomes a situation where either they lose him for nothing, or play him on the fourth line to rot.

 

[Detroit Sports*]

Holland is probably inquiring about Justin Williams and Robert Lang right now.

 

[RayMoonDoh]

Its odd that the most vocal anti Holland folks are, generally, the most negative posters around here.

Nice of them all to jump in the same boat in this thread!

 

[HTT3*]

It's real simple. Stop rewarding washed up veterans with roster spots and start playing the prospects.

Wings would have been a worse team this year if Bertuzzi and Sammy ended up being healthy.

Signing garbage washed up veterans is a one way ticket to mediocrity in today's NHL.

It's real simple? Well **** man, why didn't you just say so! You should up the other 29 NHL General Managers and tell them how real simple it is. Why you still sitting on that couch, winning and going deep is real simple.

Who knows, maybe Wings would have been better if they sat Smith and played White instead, maybe Wings would have been better if Datsyuk performed, maybe Wings would have been better if they gave Cleary more ice time, maybe Wings would have been better if Bertuzzi and Sammy were both healthy and played all year. Your argument is ridiculous, just like you think Ken Holland should be able to predict injuries.

I provided facts, facts you refuse to acknowledge because it doesn't fit your straw man argument. No team since the Salary Cap has been consistently won or gone deep in the playoffs year-after-year; none! Zippo, zero, squat. None.....

To expect the Wings to do it, while rebuilding no less, is absurd expectations. Yet Ken Holland built a team capable of going to the WCF against all odds. One goal, DRWs move on. The $6.7 million dollar man didn't show up, don't blame Samulesson and Bertuzzi.

Oh, and Smith sucked in Grand Rapids before coming up the NHL, that's why he didn't play sooner. If he was as solid as Danny Dekeyser, he would have been in the NHL 2 years ago. Smith might be as good as Kyle Quincey some day, but he's got a long way to go...

 

[Brick Top]

I'd be interested in hearing about a more consistent team the past 4 or 5 years who never had a top 15 draft pick. Can you name one?

• Chicago? Nope, 1st round exit in 2010 (and are stacked from tanking for 60 years)

• Penguins? Nope, 1st round exit in 2011 (and are stacked from tanking for 20 years)

• Boston? Nope, didn't they choke in 2009 and 2010, and 1st round exit 2012

• Canucks? Nope, 1st round exit in 2012 (and are stacked from sucking for so long)

There are four top teams that had bigger garbage runs than Detroit. The difference is, Detroit is rebuilding, those teams were going-all-in for a cup.

Guess facts just blew up your theory

I hear what you're saying here, but apart from the Canucks, the other 3 teams have won Cups more recently than the Wings. And one of Boston or Chicago is going to win a 2nd Cup since Detroit won it (and either team will be the first with 2 Cups in the salary cap era). I'd take either of those runs over what the Wings have put up in that span.

The Hawks deserve credit for winning the Cup in 2010, retooling their roster, and getting back to the Finals this year. The B's had an unexpected first round exit last year, but could win a 2nd Cup in 3 years- also pretty impressive with a good mix of young guys and vets. I don't really see Detroit as winning some sort of moral victory over these teams for just making the playoffs each year when they haven't gotten past the second round of the PO's since 2009.

 

[ricky0034]

It's real simple? Well **** man, why didn't you just say so! You should up the other 29 NHL General Managers and tell them how real simple it is. Why you still sitting on that couch, winning and going deep is real simple.

Who knows, maybe Wings would have been better if they sat Smith and played White instead, maybe Wings would have been better if Datsyuk performed, maybe Wings would have been better if they gave Cleary more ice time, maybe Wings would have been better if Bertuzzi and Sammy were both healthy and played all year. Your argument is ridiculous, just like you think Ken Holland should be able to predict injuries.

I provided facts, facts you refuse to acknowledge because it doesn't fit your straw man argument. No team since the Salary Cap has been consistently won or gone deep in the playoffs year-after-year; none! Zippo, zero, squat. None.....

To expect the Wings to do it, while rebuilding no less, is absurd expectations. Yet Ken Holland built a team capable of going to the WCF against all odds. One goal, DRWs move on. The $6.7 million dollar man didn't show up, don't blame Samulesson and Bertuzzi.

Oh, and Smith sucked in Grand Rapids before coming up the NHL, that's why he didn't play sooner. If he was as solid as Danny Dekeyser, he would have been in the NHL 2 years ago. Smith might be as good as Kyle Quincey some day, but he's got a long way to go...

it always amuses me how you unconditionally defend every single Wings player and every single part of Wings management except for Brendan Smith

did he run over your dog or something?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

It's real simple? Well **** man, why didn't you just say so! You should up the other 29 NHL General Managers and tell them how real simple it is. Why you still sitting on that couch, winning and going deep is real simple.

Who knows, maybe Wings would have been better if they sat Smith and played White instead, maybe Wings would have been better if Datsyuk performed, maybe Wings would have been better if they gave Cleary more ice time, maybe Wings would have been better if Bertuzzi and Sammy were both healthy and played all year. Your argument is ridiculous, just like you think Ken Holland should be able to predict injuries.

I provided facts, facts you refuse to acknowledge because it doesn't fit your straw man argument. No team since the Salary Cap has been consistently won or gone deep in the playoffs year-after-year; none! Zippo, zero, squat. None.....

To expect the Wings to do it, while rebuilding no less, is absurd expectations. Yet Ken Holland built a team capable of going to the WCF against all odds. One goal, DRWs move on. The $6.7 million dollar man didn't show up, don't blame Samulesson and Bertuzzi.

Oh, and Smith sucked in Grand Rapids before coming up the NHL, that's why he didn't play sooner. If he was as solid as Danny Dekeyser, he would have been in the NHL 2 years ago. Smith might be as good as Kyle Quincey some day, but he's got a long way to go...

What facts did you provide? You basically said it's OK to suck because everybody else sucked. Wings sucked because it was their GM's fault. Puck luck or bad bounces had nothing to do with the Wings sucking. It was because their GM is far too passive and loves veterans far too much which hurts the deveopment of their prospects.

Hawks and Bruins are about to be in their second Cup Finals in the past four years and their core is still in their early mid 20's. (Chara is the exception)

Ken Holland did not build a team capable of going to the Western Conference Finals. Your entire argument is hypothetical situations and a bunch of almost's. You are basically the HFBoards equivalent of Ken Holland.

Babcock wanted Smith up last season. Instead he was sent down to the AHL for another year thanks to Ken Holland.

It doesn't take a genius to predict that 35+ year old players are far more likely to get injured than say a 24-25 year old player.

The 6.7 million dollar man was playing with garbage like Justin Abdelkader.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I hear what you're saying here, but apart from the Canucks, the other 3 teams have won Cups more recently than the Wings. And one of Boston or Chicago is going to win a 2nd Cup since Detroit won it (and either team will be the first with 2 Cups in the salary cap era). I'd take either of those runs over what the Wings have put up in that span.

The Hawks deserve credit for winning the Cup in 2010, retooling their roster, and getting back to the Finals this year. The B's had an unexpected first round exit last year, but could win a 2nd Cup in 3 years- also pretty impressive with a good mix of young guys and vets. I don't really see Detroit as winning some sort of moral victory over these teams for just making the playoffs each year when they haven't gotten past the second round of the PO's since 2009.

Moral victories are for loser franchises who are OK with losing and expect it .

You play to win the game.

The Hawks core isn't going anywhere. The Red Wings core is on the wrong side of 30 and we have a GM who still doesn't want to play the prospects to see what the future holds for this team.

 

[HTT3*]

I hear what you're saying here, but apart from the Canucks, the other 3 teams have won Cups more recently than the Wings. And one of Boston or Chicago is going to win a 2nd Cup since Detroit won it (and either team will be the first with 2 Cups in the salary cap era). I'd take either of those runs over what the Wings have put up in that span.

The Hawks deserve credit for winning the Cup in 2010, retooling their roster, and getting back to the Finals this year. The B's had an unexpected first round exit last year, but could win a 2nd Cup in 3 years- also pretty impressive with a good mix of young guys and vets. I don't really see Detroit as winning some sort of moral victory over these teams for just making the playoffs each year when they haven't gotten past the second round of the PO's since 2009.

Maybe after Zetterberg and Datsyuk retire, Wings can tank like the almighty teams you mentioned in your post. It seems the way to success is being the worse possible team in the NHL for 10+ years, however, Ken Holland is proving this isn't the rule. In fact, Detroit Red Wings are the only team in the NHL that has won anything since lockout without getting top picks, and #1, #3, and a million top picks.

People are mad because the Red Wings weren't good enough in the playoffs, despite giving the president trophy team all they could handle, now these same people are mad because Red Wings don't tank for 1st rounders. It makes no sense.

Most people have this fantasy that all it takes is skill to win. There are no bounces, no luck, no health or injury issues, just skill. Ken Holland is proving that it takes more than skill. It takes luck, bounces, good goaltending, and depth. Having players like Tatar, Nyquist, Andersson, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Samuelsson, Brunner, all give Babcock depth. If there was no CC when Danny Dekeyser got injured, Wings lose in round #1 against the Ducks. Ken Holland had the foresight to recognize that depth is very, very important. And people here are pissed off about it

 

[HTT3*]

Moral victories are for loser franchises who are OK with losing and expect it .

You play to win the game.

Priceless! This is coming from the guy who wants the Detroit Red Wings to tank for 1st rounders so they can follow the Chicago Blackhawks winning strategy? Hilarious!

 

[Frk It]

It's hilarious to me people are defending Cleary just based on his over-inflated playoff stats. If you broke down most of those stats most of his points are from BS secondary assists or irrelevant goals.

Also let's not forget that he started this season with 1 pt in 15 games.

As far as the eyeball test goes the guy failed absolutely miserably. It's hard for me to believe that anyone that watched the guy over the course of this entire season would support bringing him back, including management.

He's not getting any younger, and the guy is always battling some sort of ailment, and boy does it show. The guy is only 34, but if he was a car he would have well over 200,000 miles on him.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the guy's compete level and his toughness. But this is a business, and some times you have to make business decisions. I get it, Cleary is a great "locker room" guy. But you win games on the ice, not in the locker room.

I think it's time for us to move on, but Im 99% sure he will be back.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Nothing would have changed regardless. Holland and co. have their plan whether they miss the playoffs or win the cup.

This.

Nothing was changing except maybe if we were a lottery team.

Coming in 9th, 10th, 1st round loss, West Semis loss, etc wasn't making a difference.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Priceless! This is coming from the guy who wants the Detroit Red Wings to tank for 1st rounders so they can follow the Chicago Blackhawks winning strategy? Hilarious!

Never said that.

Ken Holland has currently constructed a team that is not good enough to win a cup, but not bad enough to win the draft lottery. That is the real death sentence for any pro sports franchise. I simply want Holland to do his job. He sits on the fence and makes excuses why the team failed.

Ian White is about to walk and Holland held onto him.

Flip is gonna walk.

Zero return for any of those players and Holland didn't trade them because he doesn't like making any moves.