It's about allocation of cap space. Rather than have an $8M third pair, I'd rather use that space on actual top-four RD, of which we currently have zero signed for next season.
Player Discussion Hronek, Zadorov, Cole, Myers — Who to keep?
- Thread starter LemonSauceD
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cc
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The player on the bottom of the 'keep' list is easily Ian Cole.
For the others, salary needs to be taken into consideration. If the rest can signed for team friendly deals, I'm not opposed to any of them
For the others, salary needs to be taken into consideration. If the rest can signed for team friendly deals, I'm not opposed to any of them
Snatcher Demko
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Shareefruck
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I'd sign Myers if he can be had for peanuts (like 1-2 M peanuts), but any more than that, even if you can get him under market value, I wouldn't go for it.
It's just too much of a ticking time bomb, where even when he plays really well (which he has for parts of this season), it always feels like it's only postponing the inevitable and terrifyingly giving the coaching staff more confidence to potentially overvalue him again in the future. Just don't think I could take that being a persistent thing, as a viewer.
I can acknowledge what he's done this year, but I would sooner overpay for Zadorov than underpay for Myers, personally.
It's just too much of a ticking time bomb, where even when he plays really well (which he has for parts of this season), it always feels like it's only postponing the inevitable and terrifyingly giving the coaching staff more confidence to potentially overvalue him again in the future. Just don't think I could take that being a persistent thing, as a viewer.
I can acknowledge what he's done this year, but I would sooner overpay for Zadorov than underpay for Myers, personally.
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They’ve used Soucy on the right side as well. If you let Cole walk, Zadorov takes his spot as the 4/5 LD while being a more longer term solution. Cole’s footspeed and decline over the course of the season has me very concerned. I don’t doubt he’s finished, I think he probably still has a year or two left in the tank, but I’m not sure I would fit him in as the 4/5 LD. I’m more than fine with him being a depth signing (like at $1-2M) but he is not my preferred resigning.
If you can sign Zadorov to $4.0M x 6 or $4.5M x 5, I think you do that any day of the week. He’s probably the best LHD free agent (excluding Skjei and Ghostisbehere) and is in his prime. Obviously if he’s asking for $5M+, reluctantly id let him walk. The thing is, as I’ve mentioned, most playoff teams aren’t going to be able to even afford him at $5M so if he wants to sign with a contender, he would have to prefer playing in a different market rather than with us. If he is simply chasing the money, then he signs with a crappy team, but I don’t think he’s actually the type to do that considering his vocal stance on wanting to play for a winning team.
Management has also been interested in Zadorov since the 2023 off season and were pretty damm public about wanting Zadorov’s services, Dhali mentioning they would’ve went after him as a free agent.
He’s essentially an Erik Cernak/Nicolas Hague/Brandon Carlo type of defenseman (less blocked shots) plays 1-2 minutes less (also takes significantly more minors and fighting majors) while having a more positive impact than those three guys (also produces more offense than them). Soucy IIRC averaged 16 minutes before he arrived here and is now effectively our top 4 defenseman. Take Cole out, and Zadorov naturally has more ice time to play.
I would not mind running a top 4 of:
Hughes(24)-Hronek(22)
Zadorov(19)-Soucy(20)
Guys take a step back. We have Hronek here who is a great #2. People keep forgetting Hronek barely plays in the PP, Hughes is usually out there for almost the entire 2 minutes, so it’s not surprising Hronek’s points total took a dip.
Lets not be stupid guys, how hard was it to get a stable D-men in the Benning years, we’ve finally won the division, basically just allocate some of that Chaos Giraffe money to Hronek.
Lets not be stupid here and let him walk. If you think Willander and Big EP can fill in Hronek’s shoes hah.. we can dream but reality hurts.
People considering trading our #2 are insane. There I said it. Where were you in the last 10 years of d-men mediocracy.
This would be as stupid as letting Tanev walk after the playoff bubble, thinking that said player wasn’t a contributing factor to our successfull season.
We make the playoffs once in almost a decade (not counting the playoff bubble) and you want to trade one of our contributing factors? No! That’s just some Jim Benning level of thinking. These type of players are not easily replacable.. who takes up his minutes? Zadorov? Hah..
Resigning Hronek is top priority. You keep the core players, and 26 year old Hronek is definately The Core.
Lets not be stupid guys, how hard was it to get a stable D-men in the Benning years, we’ve finally won the division, basically just allocate some of that Chaos Giraffe money to Hronek.
Lets not be stupid here and let him walk. If you think Willander and Big EP can fill in Hronek’s shoes hah.. we can dream but reality hurts.
People considering trading our #2 are insane. There I said it. Where were you in the last 10 years of d-men mediocracy.
This would be as stupid as letting Tanev walk after the playoff bubble, thinking that said player wasn’t a contributing factor to our successfull season.
We make the playoffs once in almost a decade (not counting the playoff bubble) and you want to trade one of our contributing factors? No! That’s just some Jim Benning level of thinking. These type of players are not easily replacable.. who takes up his minutes? Zadorov? Hah..
Resigning Hronek is top priority. You keep the core players, and 26 year old Hronek is definately The Core.
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Nick Lang
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- May 14, 2015
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Yeah I wonder about the general respect to budgeting from some on this matter. It seems like an odd decision, especially when cash strapped, to neglect securing a necessity in order to purchase a backup of a less important item. Even if it is a nicer color and more sleek, you're are limited by your income and practical necessity.
Playing Soucy or Zadorov on the RD is a non-starter imo. Ideally you want a righty there. As far as I recall Tocchet is strongly against playing people on the wrong side too.
We're also in that group of contenders that can't afford him really. He's in a position to make bank and term. Good chance someone opens the space. I don't think it's something we should be involved in.
It goes without saying a lot obviously rides on performance in the playoffs though. Both Myers and Zadorov have a lot to play for.
mriswith
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- Oct 12, 2011
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The biggest problem with letting Tanev walk was that Benning was the one tasked with finding his replacement.
A ton of excellent top 4 dmen moved around over the last decade and we spent enough resources on defense to acquire more than enough of them. Unfortunately we had a complete idiot in charge of choosing who to target and how much to pay. In hindsight we should have kept Tanev but also in hindsight we should have been able to replace him and more in the years since he walked.
A ton of excellent top 4 dmen moved around over the last decade and we spent enough resources on defense to acquire more than enough of them. Unfortunately we had a complete idiot in charge of choosing who to target and how much to pay. In hindsight we should have kept Tanev but also in hindsight we should have been able to replace him and more in the years since he walked.
As much as I want to bring Zadorov back, I could be convinced that the 4th highest paid defenseman on the team needs to play big 2nd pairing minutes behind Hughes and Hronek and we wouldn't be able to do that with Zadorov and Soucey both being lefties. If they're anchoring the second and third pairing each the coach won't have the option load up the 2nd pairing and ride the top 4 defense hard in big moments.
Are there any RHD out there we could turn around and hit a homerun with using the 4.5 - 5 million that would have gone to Zadorov?
Are there any RHD out there we could turn around and hit a homerun with using the 4.5 - 5 million that would have gone to Zadorov?
LickTheEnvelope
Time to Retool... again...
Wry n Ginger
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I would be ok with qualifying Hronek and treating him like 'show what you can do' rental. This season is his outlier. He needs to duplicate this year's numbers to have a chance at the big pay-day he wants. Unless he is willing to take a team friendly deal then let it play out.
Zadorov I would give a bit of a raise to if you can get him for 3-5 years.
No to Cole...no no no.
No to Myers...no no no.
That leaves you with Hughes, Zadorov, Soucy and Juulsen. I have faith that this mgmt team can find value via free agency, promotion or trade to fill in last spots.
Zadorov I would give a bit of a raise to if you can get him for 3-5 years.
No to Cole...no no no.
No to Myers...no no no.
That leaves you with Hughes, Zadorov, Soucy and Juulsen. I have faith that this mgmt team can find value via free agency, promotion or trade to fill in last spots.
Soucy on the right side simply isn't as effective, and shouldn't be a primary option. A Zadorov-Soucy L/R pairing is not a credible top-four pairing to me, they can't be used in as difficult minutes.
Zadorov slotted at 3LD, on a $4+M AAV is just incredibly inefficient cap allocation. If he wants to sign the same contract that Soucy did (~$3.25M x 3), then I'll take him back. But he is not going to do that, because he and Milstein know this is their only chance at a big bag.
IMO your evaluation of Z is just wrong. He is not a Cernak (in his prime) or Carlo-esque player. He's never played the tough matchup minutes in his career, as those guys have (and they still produced strong defensive impacts). Tocchet doesn't trust Z in those minutes (per PuckIQ, he plays the lowest % of his icetime against "Elite" competition of any regular Canuck defenseman other than Juulsen). Carlo plays the toughest minutes. Cernak plays the toughest minutes. And Soucy plays the toughest minutes for the Canucks! Z is not that kind of player. He's a guy that ideally is on the bottom-pair, and I don't want to pay him much more than a bottom-pairing salary.
I've said it many time before, but this is correct: If you're projecting another $4.5M cap hit on a defenseman, it makes waaaaay more sense to allocate that cap hit toward a true, top-four RD. Not your luxury 3LD. If you sign Zadorov to what you're projecting, you are basically conceding that the Canucks will have to run Tyler Myers, age 34, another season in top-four RD minutes.
PavelBure10
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Hronek likely not getting to 50 points is very interesting to me. His offensive game has been very neutered in the second half of the season yet his role hasn’t changed.
12 points, a +1 in the second half of the season. 40 games.
I really wonder how much of a jump there will be from the Canucks side given Allvin stating he felt the first contract offer was fair. Obviously some posturing involved there but the reports were that Hronek’s camp scoffed at it and they still have Seravelli parading around that he’s getting 8 million per year somewhere.
12 points, a +1 in the second half of the season. 40 games.
I really wonder how much of a jump there will be from the Canucks side given Allvin stating he felt the first contract offer was fair. Obviously some posturing involved there but the reports were that Hronek’s camp scoffed at it and they still have Seravelli parading around that he’s getting 8 million per year somewhere.
I think these are separate discussions. The team shouldn't make a decision on Hronek based on what they want to do with Zadorov or Cole. Based on the rumoured offer, the team wants to keep Hronek long term at what IMO is a premium price. Now it's important to note that the Canucks made a 7-8 year $7M+ offer to Horvat too before trading him and at one time the preference was to trade Miller. It's going to be how far are the Canucks willing to go to extend Hronek, otherwise, what do the Canucks do in terms of keeping him or trading him before he hits UFA?
With Zadorov, I've maintained that it comes down to fit. He's not signing for Soucy money unless he overestimates his value again. I think he will sign for $4-$4.5M AAV but he'll be looking for a 5-6 year deal. Maybe you can get him for 4 years at a bit over $4M AAV which is very reasonable but again that's not good depth Dman money. It's a similar situation to what we had with Myers. In a top 4 and top PK role on a good team, there's value in the overpayment. In a bottom pairing role on a bad team? It's terrible value.
Cole, I really liked him at the beginning of the season but it seems the results have been similar at the end by the past 3 seasons. I think we move on. At most you sign him to compete for that #6/#7 role. He's 35 and isn't a great skater to begin with. In comparison, Edler's final NHL season was a stark difference to his first year as a King. Expectations need to be adjusted and Cole will go to the highest bidder.
With Zadorov, I've maintained that it comes down to fit. He's not signing for Soucy money unless he overestimates his value again. I think he will sign for $4-$4.5M AAV but he'll be looking for a 5-6 year deal. Maybe you can get him for 4 years at a bit over $4M AAV which is very reasonable but again that's not good depth Dman money. It's a similar situation to what we had with Myers. In a top 4 and top PK role on a good team, there's value in the overpayment. In a bottom pairing role on a bad team? It's terrible value.
Cole, I really liked him at the beginning of the season but it seems the results have been similar at the end by the past 3 seasons. I think we move on. At most you sign him to compete for that #6/#7 role. He's 35 and isn't a great skater to begin with. In comparison, Edler's final NHL season was a stark difference to his first year as a King. Expectations need to be adjusted and Cole will go to the highest bidder.
I think if the Canucks pencil in Juulsen as a #6 they need a good #5. This team should be looking to contend now. They can't afford to go in the season "promot[ing] from within" and penciling in Juulsen as a regular.
After a significant raise for Hronek, Petey's raise and trying to keep some of the other existing players like Joshua, there may not be enough cap space to add a pretty good #5. We'll see but promoting from within may be their wisest solution depending... If they have the cap space next summer, then bringing in a new contract makes the most sense.
ameselare
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- Mar 30, 2024
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When you say promote from within, who else are you thinking of besides Juulsen? Let's say we accept your premise that we keep Hronek, don't keep Cole, and don't end up keeping Zadorov due to price. Let's say Myers re-signs. Juulsen replaces Cole. Who else are you thinking of in terms of promoting from within?
The Canucks likely went into this season with two of Juulsen, Friedman, Irwin, Breezebois, and McWard/Hirose having spots. The Canucks went out and got Friedman (who will be a UFA) and Zadorov. Who is going to play with Juulsen on the bottom pairing and who is going to be the#7 Dman from within?
If they don't resign Zadorov, then they can afford another Cole level salary or best just to keep him then. My suggestion didnt have them filling 2 spots in the top 6 from within.
As far as a number 7 goes, let the players you listed and DPetey battle it out in camp along with invites and new depth signings. More or less what they did last camp/pre-season
Well when I said we needed a good #5 to pair with Juulsen you said we can't afford it and should promote from within. So you're suggesting that if Z doesn't sign, you fill the #5 spot with a $3M player, Juulsen as #6 and "promote from within" to fill the #7 spot?
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