How to build a successful NHL franchise and not to Dorion it up.

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,297
3,696
Ottabot City
Each GM tries to put his own stamp on things, and Dorion has been making wholesale changes from Murray's many rebuilds. When Dorions time is done, the next GM will do the same...
Or they would isolate the good players on the roster and build around them. Not too many GM's get to trade away a roster with core stars they helped build over a decade only to try and be as successful a second time around. He sacrificed the vets on our team and let the children run the asylum the first time around. Now he's brought in garbage vets with no affiliation to this team or city to nurture our budding "stars". This is going to be a great experiment.
 

Rand0m

Registered User
Oct 2, 2011
1,272
987
I agree with a poster above, some of these off season “veteran” acquisitions were needed, but not this many.

So far, considering price paid and on-ice result, I like Watson and Gudbransson. I find the price was fair and they legitimately help the team in their own way. I think Dadonov is a waste of a roster spot, I don’t see anything he does that one of the younger (and cheaper) players already knocking at the door can’t do. Worst part is that it’s a 3yr contract, I give it a 0.0% chance he’s here by year 3 of that contract. They’ll either buy him out or trade him for scraps.

Stepan would have been my 3rd choice, but I feel like the price paid was too high, the tank is empty there and paying a 2nd for what we see on the ice is a horrible overpayment, a 4th would have been fair IMO. Luckily it’s only 1 year and maybe some team will panic and give up “something” for him st the deadline to recoup some of the loss.

I also think Murray was a good move by Dorion, he’s just been playing behind one of the worst D in the league.
 

lancepitlick

Registered User
Nov 20, 2016
377
411
Insulate young players from the score sheet

Like I get that if you are talking about Dadynov. To a much lesser extent Stepan.

But the rest of the guys acquired are barely even NHL players, at best. I doubt most of them are playing in the NHL at all in 2 years time. It is like getting a whole 5 man crew of Johnny Oduya's. What's the point exactly?
 

Stylizer1

SENSimillanaire
Jun 12, 2009
19,297
3,696
Ottabot City
I agree with a poster above, some of these off season “veteran” acquisitions were needed, but not this many.

So far, considering price paid and on-ice result, I like Watson and Gudbransson. I find the price was fair and they legitimately help the team in their own way. I think Dadonov is a waste of a roster spot, I don’t see anything he does that one of the younger (and cheaper) players already knocking at the door can’t do. Worst part is that it’s a 3yr contract, I give it a 0.0% chance he’s here by year 3 of that contract. They’ll either buy him out or trade him for scraps.

Stepan would have been my 3rd choice, but I feel like the price paid was too high, the tank is empty there and paying a 2nd for what we see on the ice is a horrible overpayment, a 4th would have been fair IMO. Luckily it’s only 1 year and maybe some team will panic and give up “something” for him st the deadline to recoup some of the loss.

I also think Murray was a good move by Dorion, he’s just been playing behind one of the worst D in the league.
It is the illusion that the team is moving into a new direction and making moves. Murray was the only signing moving in the right direction.
 
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Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,856
9,793
Montreal, Canada
Like I get that if you are talking about Dadynov. To a much lesser extent Stepan.

But the rest of the guys acquired are barely even NHL players, at best. I doubt most of them are playing in the NHL at all in 2 years time. It is like getting a whole 5 man crew of Johnny Oduya's. What's the point exactly?

It was 100% meant as a joke but I am the only one who find it funny unfortunately
 

Cosmix

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Jul 24, 2011
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I think we’d all agree the Jets are an excellent team with good depth and assets.

Jets missed the playoffs 5 out fo their first 6 years back. Built through the draft. Have a culture now that everyone knows is legit. No faking or shortcuts they did it the right way.

Ottawa is on the same course. It wasn’t easy being a Jets fan for a long time.

“Excellent”? Jets appear to be a “good” team, not excellent. The Senators are a “poor” team. They were made poor by this GM.
 
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DrSense

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
783
899
The biggest challenge for the franchise right now is we are very weak at center in general in terms of foundational pieces, and this has been compounded by the play of the veteran centers, most of which are cast offs and playing below rather modest expectations. It's really hard to build a team around a group of elite wingers, let alone good but not elite wingers. And even if you have one elite center, it's still hard to even make the playoffs. Winnipeg is in the process of trying to solve that problem with their trade. We're like Chicago, Detroit and Arizona right now in terms of being really weak up the middle.

Outside of Tierney right now, I'm don't think we have one center playing well. And Tierney is an above average 3rd liner, or below average 2nd liner, depending on your perspective.

Stepan has received gobs of scoring line ice time, and looks like a depth center at best. I'm most concerned about his lack of effectiveness. His productivity rate is basically last among Senators forwards used thus far.
Norris has been ok, but more the beneficiary of his two linemates creativity and driving play. He looks fine long-term, but he isn't the reason for that line's success by any stretch. And having a top line center winning less than 40% of their draws isn't sustainable. That line's corsi rating while being so poor on draws is pretty amazing, actually.
Anisimov has been the beneficiary of linemates in spots more than driving play, and has been a deserved healthy scratch.
White has been relatively invisible, when not a healthy scratch.
Both White and Anisimov have also been bad on draws, compounding puck possession woes for them.

We need at least one other center to step up. Obviously most of us hope it will be Norris and/or White, or that Logan Brown and Chlapik will at least get the chance to show what they can do. But even just one of the veterans turing it around to allow the team to be patient and roll out White and Norris and take the lumps would be better.

But right now, I'm still most concerned about our center ice position long-term. Stutzle hasn't played center in a long time, including for his WJC team. We might be rushing Norris a tad, although he's surviving fine. Still a question of whether he can be a top 6 center on a contender. Logan Brown has been so woeful in training camp he can't even play for us. We basically exposed Chlapik for free. Pinto looks good, but is still a bit of a project that will take a few years and needs to still improve his skating.

Franchise centers are tough to come by and to be a contender you generally need two of them. We've got a ways to go still.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,814
60,183
Ottawa, ON
Building an offence-first franchise is not sustainable and ultimately not feasible in the Ottawa market.

All of those goals and points lead to dollars on the spreadsheet.

Yes, we had cap trouble with all of our stars - when the cap was $37M.
 

DrSense

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
783
899
Don't forget Defence, very big challenge!

On the NHL roster, I generally agree. But at the same time, if we had the equivalent of Chabot as one of our centers to build around, that would make a huge difference in the outlook at center, but we don't. But at least we have a franchise #1 defenceman to build around, which lifts so much pressure off of this position. Plus, in the system, there is reason to be bullish with the likes of Sanderson, Brannstrom, JBD, Thompson and others, in addition to already having Chabot for 23-25 minutes a night for perhaps the next decade.
 

Cosmix

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The biggest challenge for the franchise right now is we are very weak at center in general in terms of foundational pieces, and this has been compounded by the play of the veteran centers, most of which are cast offs and playing below rather modest expectations. It's really hard to build a team around a group of elite wingers, let alone good but not elite wingers. And even if you have one elite center, it's still hard to even make the playoffs. Winnipeg is in the process of trying to solve that problem with their trade. We're like Chicago, Detroit and Arizona right now in terms of being really weak up the middle.

Outside of Tierney right now, I'm don't think we have one center playing well. And Tierney is an above average 3rd liner, or below average 2nd liner, depending on your perspective.

Stepan has received gobs of scoring line ice time, and looks like a depth center at best. I'm most concerned about his lack of effectiveness. His productivity rate is basically last among Senators forwards used thus far.
Norris has been ok, but more the beneficiary of his two linemates creativity and driving play. He looks fine long-term, but he isn't the reason for that line's success by any stretch. And having a top line center winning less than 40% of their draws isn't sustainable. That line's corsi rating while being so poor on draws is pretty amazing, actually.
Anisimov has been the beneficiary of linemates in spots more than driving play, and has been a deserved healthy scratch.
White has been relatively invisible, when not a healthy scratch.
Both White and Anisimov have also been bad on draws, compounding puck possession woes for them.

We need at least one other center to step up. Obviously most of us hope it will be Norris and/or White, or that Logan Brown and Chlapik will at least get the chance to show what they can do. But even just one of the veterans turing it around to allow the team to be patient and roll out White and Norris and take the lumps would be better.

But right now, I'm still most concerned about our center ice position long-term. Stutzle hasn't played center in a long time, including for his WJC team. We might be rushing Norris a tad, although he's surviving fine. Still a question of whether he can be a top 6 center on a contender. Logan Brown has been so woeful in training camp he can't even play for us. We basically exposed Chlapik for free. Pinto looks good, but is still a bit of a project that will take a few years and needs to still improve his skating.

Franchise centers are tough to come by and to be a contender you generally need two of them. We've got a ways to go still.

Too much sense here, Doc. :)

I agree with you about Tierney being a good third line Center who can play second line if required. Unfortunately the team does not have any Center’s who can be rated good or better on the 1st or 2nd line. We have a few Center prospects such as Stutzle, L. Brown, Pinto, Norris and Grieg; however, I doubt any of those players will develop into 1st Line Center’s except maybe Stutzle, and most of them might turn out to be bottom 6 forwards. We need more top prospects at the wing too.

And then there is the defensemen. Chabot is a 1st pair D man but has issues related to physical play and risk-taking with the puck. Sanderson appears to have potential to become a top 4 D man but I am not sure if he will develop into a top pair D man. Bernard Docker appears to have potential to be a top 4 D man, but not quite the level of Sanderson. We need more D prospects with high potential.

In goal, we have Murray and a few prospects with good potential. Hopefully one of the prospects develops into a top goaltender over the next few years. Whoever is in the net is going to gain a lot of experience over the next few years as Shots Against will continue to be higher than they should be.
 
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Beech

Cicc' a porta
Nov 25, 2020
2,876
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Dorion drafts alright. And I don’t mind the idea behind his trades. He does one thing pretty consistently though...he acquires players that are not good. Our pro scouting has been an issue for a long while. And I think it still is.
he has been a full time GM since 2017, pre draft. So the 17 draft was his
He was director of player personnel and then assistant GM in 2009 and 2016
He was chief armature scout in 2007.

So the 08-11 drafts. depending who the final decision maker was, is Him or Murray. They were homeruns. Bad management by Murray and crazy antics by Melnyk screwed things up.

2012, 13, 14, 15 and 16..he was director of player personnel...Those drafts should have been his... I see Thomas Chabot ..one guy only..

The 17 and outward draft is?????? Formenton in minors. Batherson..here, but is almost 23 and in year 1 officially..and hardly a star. the 18 draft; Brady T,,,I get you a star...but no one else, even though most of those guys are now 21. The 19 draft, No one..even though they are 20 years old. The 20 draft is a TDB.

I disagree with your analysis of his drafting, or influence on the draft. Since 2011 nothing to be overly proud of.

All I hear is how he is good at drafting..tell me who? 3 players, all chosen fairly high (the last 10 years..chabot, Brady and Stutzle)...Look at draft picks around them.. Many have achieved similar success. So, its not like he outdid anyone. I would kill to have a reputation so un-deserved like he and his drafting. He deserves credit for one brilliant move. Identifying Karlsson and getting him at the 08 draft..One great move in 14 years.
 

Burrowsaurus

Registered User
Mar 20, 2013
42,448
16,068
he has been a full time GM since 2017, pre draft. So the 17 draft was his
He was director of player personnel and then assistant GM in 2009 and 2016
He was chief armature scout in 2007.

So the 08-11 drafts. depending who the final decision maker was, is Him or Murray. They were homeruns. Bad management by Murray and crazy antics by Melnyk screwed things up.

2012, 13, 14, 15 and 16..he was director of player personnel...Those drafts should have been his... I see Thomas Chabot ..one guy only..

The 17 and outward draft is?????? Formenton in minors. Batherson..here, but is almost 23 and in year 1 officially..and hardly a star. the 18 draft; Brady T,,,I get you a star...but no one else, even though most of those guys are now 21. The 19 draft, No one..even though they are 20 years old. The 20 draft is a TDB.

I disagree with your analysis of his drafting, or influence on the draft. Since 2011 nothing to be overly proud of.

All I hear is how he is good at drafting..tell me who? 3 players, all chosen fairly high (the last 10 years..chabot, Brady and Stutzle)...Look at draft picks around them.. Many have achieved similar success. So, its not like he outdid anyone. I would kill to have a reputation so un-deserved like he and his drafting. He deserves credit for one brilliant move. Identifying Karlsson and getting him at the 08 draft..One great move in 14 years.
Well I said drafts alright.

As director of player personnel I don’t believe he’s head of the draft. That would have be Lowe to start and now Mann.

but there is a reason why our prospect pool is seen as one of the 5 best in the NHL. That takes 5-6 years of good drafting.
 

AchtzehnBaby

Global Matador
Mar 28, 2013
15,181
9,026
Hazeldean Road
he has been a full time GM since 2017, pre draft. So the 17 draft was his
He was director of player personnel and then assistant GM in 2009 and 2016
He was chief armature scout in 2007.

So the 08-11 drafts. depending who the final decision maker was, is Him or Murray. They were homeruns. Bad management by Murray and crazy antics by Melnyk screwed things up.

2012, 13, 14, 15 and 16..he was director of player personnel...Those drafts should have been his... I see Thomas Chabot ..one guy only..

The 17 and outward draft is?????? Formenton in minors. Batherson..here, but is almost 23 and in year 1 officially..and hardly a star. the 18 draft; Brady T,,,I get you a star...but no one else, even though most of those guys are now 21. The 19 draft, No one..even though they are 20 years old. The 20 draft is a TDB.

I disagree with your analysis of his drafting, or influence on the draft. Since 2011 nothing to be overly proud of.

All I hear is how he is good at drafting..tell me who? 3 players, all chosen fairly high (the last 10 years..chabot, Brady and Stutzle)...Look at draft picks around them.. Many have achieved similar success. So, its not like he outdid anyone. I would kill to have a reputation so un-deserved like he and his drafting. He deserves credit for one brilliant move. Identifying Karlsson and getting him at the 08 draft..One great move in 14 years.

Sending EK packing was a stellar move. Unrivalled in the NHL.

Pumping up a mortally wounded soldier for some excellent returns.

PD made away like a bandit.
 

Agent Zub

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
14,540
11,801
Well I said drafts alright.

As director of player personnel I don’t believe he’s head of the draft. That would have be Lowe to start and now Mann.

but there is a reason why our prospect pool is seen as one of the 5 best in the NHL. That takes 5-6 years of good drafting.


Ottawa is easily the most overrated drafting team in the league. We have drafted one forward since 2001 to hit 70 points with the team, and have drafted only two top 4 defenders since 2000. That's a span of 20 years.

our prospect pool is seen as one of the best because we literally sold off anyone with value for picks and have been tanking for 3 years. And still we only have one elite forward prospect in Stutzle to show for it.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,859
31,079
We have drafted one forward since 2001 to hit 70 points with the team
Why do they cease to count when we trade them to another team? Are Hoffman Stone and Zibanejad all bad picks because we traded them?

If you're talking strictly about drafting, whether we trade the guy or not isn't relevant, dropping guys that we traded just so that you can use a lower number to try and embellish your position is intellectually dishonest.
 
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Agent Zub

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
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Why do they cease to count when we trade them to another team? Are Hoffman Stone and Zibanejad all bad picks because we traded them?

If you're talking strictly about drafting, whether we trade the guy or not isn't relevant, dropping guys that we traded just so that you can use a lower number to try and embellish your position is intellectually dishonest.

Sure we can include them. Though I don't really consider Hoffman a 70 point player/1st line talent, and Zibanejad was a lotto pick in a top heavy draft, so not much draft acumen needed there. Stone was a great pick. Still a trash drafting record overall even if you include all three.
 

SensontheRush

Never said it was Sunshine
Apr 27, 2010
4,747
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Ottawa
Sure we can include them. Though I don't really consider Hoffman a 70 point player/1st line talent, and Zibanejad was a lotto pick in a top heavy draft, so not much draft acumen needed there. Stone was a great pick. Still a trash drafting record overall even if you include all three.

:moves the goalposts even further:

It also incorrect to say we have only drafted and developed two top four Dmen in the last 20 years.

Are you unfamiliar with Sen history? Maybe you should go on Hockeydb and check out our draft picks.
 

Agent Zub

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
14,540
11,801
:moves the goalposts even further:

It also incorrect to say we have only drafted and developed two top four Dmen in the last 20 years.

Are you unfamiliar with Sen history? Maybe you should go on Hockeydb and check out our draft picks.

I have Karlsson, Chabot, and Volchenkov since 2000. maybe you can include Ceci, Gleason, and Meszaros but those guys were more bottom 4 D than top 4 to me. There are other defenceman we drafted that you could say played top 4 like Borowiecki, Cowen, Weircioch, but they only played top 4 because of how bad Sens management has been at drafting them.
 

Beech

Cicc' a porta
Nov 25, 2020
2,876
982
Well I said drafts alright.

As director of player personnel I don’t believe he’s head of the draft. That would have be Lowe to start and now Mann.

but there is a reason why our prospect pool is seen as one of the 5 best in the NHL. That takes 5-6 years of good drafting.
the 2011-2012 prospect evaluation . Notice the second spot.
https://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/team-rankings-2011-2012/5/.
upload_2021-1-26_13-41-47.png


Pumpel..flamed out
Noesen..flammed out
The Mik..a star, but not here
David Runblad..flamed out
Da Costa..flamed out
Jim O'Brien...flamed out
Bobby Butler..flamed out
Jared Cowen..flamed out
Robin Lehner...solid..not here..on his 4th team
Jake the snake..solid...not here
Collin Greening, flamed out
(NOT LISTED: Stone, Hoffman, Pageau)

11-12 season. snuck in as a # 8, out in round 1
12-13 season, snuck in as a #8..beat a Montreal Canadians team not ready for the playoffs
13-14, out of playoffs
14-15, miracle hamburgler run, snuck in as a #8..out in round 1
15-16, out of playoffs

Be careful of "prospect pool evaluation". Judge against reality. Dorion has enjoyed the myth of draft guru for a while. The #1 team in the 11-12 evaluation; the Florida Panthers..take a good look at the 5 years that followed. NY Islanders, #3..check out their next 5 years. and so on.

I will repeat. He hit home runs from 08-11..way more misses since.

If indeed Lowe and then Mann..okay, he gets a pass. Murray/Melnyk fault for moving him and placing Lowe and his fault or Melnyk's for Mann.
 

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