How good were the 94 Rangers?

BerthMania

Registered User
Jun 3, 2022
266
241
Montréal
Heh, heh. There is quite a bit of overlap with the 1990 Oilers:
Messier
Anderson
Tikkanen
Graves
Beukeboom
MacTavish
Lowe

Messier was 32-33 that season (not sure it that counts as "mid-30s). But I think he was still very much in his prime until the end of 1996. Remember he was 2nd in Hart voting in 1995-96 and would have had a 50-goal season if not for late-season injury...

Looking at the Hall of Famers, I'd say Zubov was already at his peak by that season (he led the team in scoring). Graves isn't a Hall of Famer, but he clearly hit his peak that year. As did Richter.

This is probably true, I think. The '94 Rangers were constructed to be the '90 Oilers, basically, but with two elite offensive defencemen. They were an attacking team who skated through the left-wing lock and were okay with trading chances with opponents.

Jersey was a really good team on the rise and not surprisingly they challenged NYR. But I don't think any other club really did. Yeah, I know the Islanders weren't good and were completely overwhelmed, but Washington was a pretty good team (had just eliminated Pittsburgh). And even though the Final went to 7 games, I really think it could have been over in four if not for some bounces in game one (and Kirk McLean playing the game of his life). I just don't think the Canucks were ever going to beat the Rangers in that series, no matter what happened. NYR just took their feet off the gas near the end, and had to rally in game 7 to finish it off.

_____________

This is a bit off-topic, but 1993-94 is probably what I think of as the end of the NHL's most entertaining and most "perfect" mini-era, circa 1986-87 to 1993-94. That was the golden age.
What did the 86-94 period have that other period in NHL history doesn't have?
 

Dingo

Registered User
Jul 13, 2018
1,816
1,814
What did the 86-94 period have that other period in NHL history doesn't have?
talent was high, and goslie pads and defensive systems were still developing.

I dont think he means 'best' era in terms of talent, just that it was awesome and exciting to watch.

Id agree. Since 2017 when they shrunk the pads reminds me very much of those years. Wide open, cant let anyone shoot, no boxing out, little trapping, tons of talent...... ya, i think those years and the last seven or so have been the best hockey i have seen. If i feel that it was better then, it is just about for certsin that its simply nostalgia.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
96,602
61,421
Ottawa, ON
Back when I was a Rangers fan, it was nice to watch the games on CBC because I only caught the regular season games against Montreal and Toronto.

They were a team that was supposed to succeed and didn’t despite a lot of star power.

Looking at the talent that went out the door, including Nicholls, Amonte, Weight and Gartner, it’s pretty remarkable that they succeeded without them by bringing in the vets like Noonan and Matteau and ex-Oilers like Anderson.

As a fan in those days, I always felt that they underachieved in the post-season and Messier coming in really changed people’s perspectives about the team.

As one of the only Rangers fans I know of in Ottawa at the time before Messier (kids at school called me the Lone Ranger), him arriving really put the team on the map as a serious contender. All of a sudden, posters and merchandise were widely available up here and a lot of fans emerged.

Very talented and deep team but also very flawed because 1) coached by an egotistical douchebag, and 2) captained by another egotistical douchebag.

It’s interesting that you bring this up seeing as May 25th will be the 30th anniversary of Messier’s guaranteed win and his hat-trick down 3-2 in the series and facing elimination.
 
Last edited:

Dingo

Registered User
Jul 13, 2018
1,816
1,814
Back when I was a Rangers fan, it was nice to watch the games in CBC because I only caught the regular season games against Montreal and Toronto.

They were a team that was supposed to succeed and didn’t despite a lot of star power.

Looking at the talent that went out the door, including Nicholls, Amonte, Weight and Gartner, it’s pretty remarkable that they succeeded without them by bringing in the vets like Noonan and Matteau and ex-Oilers like Anderson.

As a fan in those days, I always felt that they underachieved in the post-season and Messier coming in really changed people’s perspectives about the team.

As one of the only Rangers fans I know of in Ottawa at the time before Messier (kids at school called me the Lone Ranger), him arriving really put the team on the map as a serious contender. All of a sudden, posters and merchandise were widely available up here and a lot of fans emerged.



It’s interesting that you bring this up seeing as May 25th will be the 30th anniversary of Messier’s guaranteed win and his hat-trick down 3-2 in the series and facing elimination.
an egotistical douchebag who could play hockey?
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
96,602
61,421
Ottawa, ON
an egotistical douchebag who could play hockey?

It’s weird to call the team flawed because of the Captain when he put the team on his back facing elimination.

I’ve learned to disregard any perspective on Messier that originates from a Canucks fan because they are almost irrationally unhinged whenever anyone says anything positive about him.
 

Dingo

Registered User
Jul 13, 2018
1,816
1,814
It’s weird to call the team flawed because of the Captain when he put the team on his back facing elimination.

I’ve learned to disregard any perspective on Messier that originates from a Canucks fan because they are almost irrationally unhinged whenever anyone says anything positive about him.
fair enough.

for the record i am neither pro or anti Messier

just the logic formula - you really can be an egotistical douchebag and get a hat trick.

Messier was very good in that playoffs, and you are probably right about sour Canucks fans.

I made $50 off this series, being a BC kid.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NyQuil

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
29,116
16,879
I was in grad school in Windsor, my apartment WITHIN EYESIGHT OF THE JOE (though it took half an hour to cross the bridge), and i was always going to games cheering for the opposition. I am a Vancouver Islander. I hate Calgary to my core (this will be the kindest post ever) but Calgary was built to be a playoff success. When Van squeaked by them i thought omg, we're going to the Finals! (The Western conference was weak that year). Some touted the Rags, others the Devils. A Calgary vs. either NJ or NY was expected (i was 25 years old; the good old days). My Canucks shook us all by winning a Game 7 series versus the Flames. THAT's when i knew we were going to the finals! (I had no delusions of grandeur as i was in middle school when my Canucks where ***-handed an exit quickly in the Finals by the Islanders in 1982.)

The Canucks over Flames and NY-NJ tilts were the pre-Finals sparks.

My Canucks beat Fleury, Nieuwendyk, Roberts, MacInnis, Suter... sad-ass Vernon and top-scoring poser Reichel.

my memory is this was the year calgary stopped really being calgary

it was post-gilmour trade but it wasn’t so much an issue of depth up front, because you had reichel and titov, plus fleury and roberts growing into all-stars, adequately filling the holes left by gilmour, mullen, loob/makarov.

it was on d. macinnis was the only guy left and the rest were all playoff non-gamers who had been chucked aside by a combo of keenan (james patrick, trent yawney), craig patrick (zarley zalapski), and bob gainey (frank musil) en route to cups/finals berths. that was a decidedly different feel than macoun, mccrimmon, suter, et al.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,329
15,975
Tokyo, Japan
Yeah, I don't know where this "Calgary was a favorite in '94" line is coming from. After crapping out in '92 and missing the playoffs, the Flames came back strongly in '93 (2nd in division) but their bottom-half defence was bad and got embarrassingly exposed vs. the Gretzky-Kings in the playoffs. They finished 1st in the division in '94 but only because the Canucks sagged badly and the rest of the division was garbage and easy-pickings. As evidence, here is the Flames' 1994 record vs. their own inept division and vs. the rest of the League:
vs. division
20 - 8 - 4 (.688)
vs. rest-of-League
22 - 21 - 9 (.510)

When Robert Reichel is the leading scorer and your shut-down guys are Michel Petit and Trent Yawney, you're usually in trouble. And by this point, every Flames' watcher fully expected Vernon to play and to choke.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,329
15,975
Tokyo, Japan
What did the 86-94 period have that other period in NHL history doesn't have?
I agree with @Dingo that it was just a "perfect" period in terms of excitement level and scoring rates, etc. Goalies were exciting to watch but not dominant. An abundance of talented skaters and forwards.

But there are other things, too: There were still old buildings with character, and different teams played wildly different styles of hockey. 'Systems hockey' was a thing (I mean it always has been by degrees) but the players still largely controlled the outcome of games, not coaches. We also saw where -- very unlike the late-70s to mid-80s transition -- the mid/late-80s' stars were still among the biggest stars of the early/mid-90s. Thus, there just seemed to be an unusual abundance of talent, incl. fresh European talent, in the NHL at the same time.

(I also agree with @Dingo the recent six years or so have been a little bit similar, but the issue today is talent being watered-down and dispersed across too-big a League, lack of rivalries, and all teams playing basically the same style of hockey.)
 

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
261
194
I was in grad school in Windsor, my apartment WITHIN EYESIGHT OF THE JOE (though it took half an hour to cross the bridge), and i was always going to games cheering for the opposition. I am a Vancouver Islander. I hate Calgary to my core (this will be the kindest post ever) but Calgary was built to be a playoff success. When Van squeaked by them i thought omg, we're going to the Finals! (The Western conference was weak that year). Some touted the Rags, others the Devils. A Calgary vs. either NJ or NY was expected (i was 25 years old; the good old days). My Canucks shook us all by winning a Game 7 series versus the Flames. THAT's when i knew we were going to the finals! (I had no delusions of grandeur as i was in middle school when my Canucks where ***-handed an exit quickly in the Finals by the Islanders in 1982.)

The Canucks over Flames and NY-NJ tilts were the pre-Finals sparks.

My Canucks beat Fleury, Nieuwendyk, Roberts, MacInnis, Suter... sad-ass Vernon and top-scoring poser Reichel.

This post is completely false information. You can literally look up preseason odds online.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Hobnobs

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
261
194
It’s weird to call the team flawed because of the Captain when he put the team on his back facing elimination.

I’ve learned to disregard any perspective on Messier that originates from a Canucks fan because they are almost irrationally unhinged whenever anyone says anything positive about him.

I always disliked Messier. That being said I don't see how anyone can 'blame' him for not having success. Guy has 6 cups and is 2nd in playoff points for a reason. He sucked in his late 30s, early 40s. Big deal, it's impressive he was even able to play at a semi reasonable level at that age
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,329
15,975
Tokyo, Japan
I always disliked Messier. That being said I don't see how anyone can 'blame' him for not having success. Guy has 6 cups and is 2nd in playoff points for a reason. He sucked in his late 30s, early 40s. Big deal, it's impressive he was even able to play at a semi reasonable level at that age
While late 30s / early 40s Messier wasn't a patch on his old self, saying "he sucked" isn't accurate either:

Canucks era:
-- From Nov. 1st 1997 to March 7th 1998, Messier was 12th in NHL scoring.
-- From Nov. 1st 1997 to Dec. 19th 1998, Messier was 15th in NHL scoring.
-- In 1999-00, Messier (now aged 39) was 1st on the Canucks in PPG and was voted team MVP by the fans.

Second Rangers' era:
-- In 2000-01 (now aged 40), Messier scored 67 points. (Excepting the month of January, he scored 64 points in 68 games.)
-- In his final season with the Rangers, Messier (aged 43) was 2nd in goals and points on the club.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SnowblindNYR

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
261
194
-- In his final season with the Rangers, Messier (aged 43) was 2nd in goals and points on the club.

That says more about how trash the Rangers were then anything he accomplished besides chasing Howe's records in his last 7 seasons. If I got paid to float around and be mediocre in the NHL for 6-7 million dollars a year I would do it in a heartbeat. So while I'm not judging him, he was bad(for his standards) from probably the mid point of the 96-97 season onward.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,329
15,975
Tokyo, Japan
That says more about how trash the Rangers were then anything he accomplished besides chasing Howe's records in his last 7 seasons. If I got paid to float around and be mediocre in the NHL for 6-7 million dollars a year I would do it in a heartbeat. So while I'm not judging him, he was bad(for his standards) from probably the mid point of the 96-97 season onward.
Yes, clearly you weren't judging him when you said "he sucked".
 

KingDeathMetal

Registered User
Jun 7, 2015
1,128
394
Long Island, NY
Biased fan here, but also have more distinct memories of that entire season than any other season I've watched since, so I can also give you a good analysis of the team.

Here's how good the Rangers were in 94: we traded Vanbiesbrouck (who had an all-time great season for Florida, topped only by Hasek who also had an all-timer that year), then later in the season traded Gartner and Amonte for players not nearly as productive, and Mark Messier had a down offensive regular season...

...and we still won the President's Trophy and the Cup.

We can talk about the insane lineup depth during an era where most teams were just one or two lines deep, the veteran experience coupled with dynamic young players, or the excellent goalie tandem.

But what separated the 94 Rangers from the entire rest of the league, was the fact that our top defensive pairings were without peer not only in 94, but pretty much the rest of the 90s. The top two pairs had three Hall of Fame d-men, along with one of the biggest, toughest crease clearing d-men of his era.

Leetch-Beukeboom
Zubov-Lowe
Karpovtsev-Wells
Lidster

Every single one of those 7 defensemen were a top pairing d-man at some point in their careers. Then consider we traded another former top pairing d-man, James Patrick, and carried a young Mattias Norstrom, to understand what type of depth the d pairings had.

Leetch was only a season removed from 102 pts, the last d-man to score over 100 pts until Karlsson last year. And on the 2nd pairing, Zubov had 89 points and had a really good shot to reach 100 pts had he not missed 6 games.

The powerplay was simply electric. Number 1 in the league that year and was a huge boon for us in the playoffs.

Zubov's production slipped in the playoffs but Leetch scored at a 100 point pace and won the Conn Smythe.

Messier's production also jumped massively in the postseason. Kovalev's too.

Lastly, prior to the trade deadline, these were our wing forwards:

Kovalev
Graves
Amonte
Gartner
Larmer
Tikkanen

Every single one of those players besides maybe Tikkanen has a Hall of Fame case (Gartner's already in). 4 of the 6 finished their career with over 400 goals, and Graves (50+ goals that season) came close. 3 of the 6 had been Selke finalists or Top 5 Selke voting at some point, with Tikkanen being a multi time Selke finalist.

5 of the 6 have been all-stars.

That's three lines worth of star forwards, in an era where that type of depth simply wasn't a thing. Hell, find me a team NOW with this type of forward depth. We're talking about a very small group of teams, ever, who had 6 impact forwards like this. Other teams had two or three 50 goal/100 pt forwards that might stand out more to you, but the Rangers had 6 really good, all star level/or Selke worthy dudes. We traded TWO OF THEM later in the year and still won the Cup!

Biggest weakness of the team was at Center. After Messier, it was a good group of guys like Nemchinov and eventually MacTavish, but no one dominant. At times, Kovalev had to play Center.

Overall, not many teams all time could match the forward depth, d-corps depth, or goaltending depth of the 94 Rangers, to say nothing of the sheer Stanley Cup Playoff experience.

This team gets overlooked because flashier, longer lasting teams preceded and followed them, but I take the 94 Rangers over either of the 91 or 92 Penguins, the 93 Canadiens, the 90 Oilers (lesser version of the 94 Rangers), 95 Devils, or the 99 Stars. Only teams I think were better in that decade were the 96 Avs and the back to back Red Wings.

On paper there was no team in the decade as good as the Penguins, but that same team got bounced in the 94 playoffs, beat by the 93 Islanders, and went down 0-2 in the semi-finals against the 92 Rangers which were vastly inferior to the 94 Rangers. The 96 Penguins, with Jagr at the height of his powers, were arguably better than any other Pens team and the Panthers beat them. I'm just not as impressed with those Pens teams and think they started to lose once the conference got tougher. I take the 94 Rangers over them pretty easily.

Removing the 80s Islanders, 80s Oilers, 90s Avs and 90s Red Wings, I think there's a good case to be made that the Rangers were the best of the non-multi cup teams of their era.

Now here's a better question:

How good COULD the Rangers have been over a longer stretch had we not traded Amonte and Gartner for Matteau, Anderson and Noonan, never traded Doug Weight for Esa Tikkanen, and traded Richter instead of Vanbiesbrouck? Highly possible that the Rangers win or come close in 95 and 96 with that squad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: torontoblood

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
261
194
Yes, clearly you weren't judging him when you said "he sucked".

He did suck by his standards late in his career. I don't care if he's your favorite or 2nd favorite player, those are the facts.

Reality is after leaving new york, he wouldn't have made teams like Detroit or Colorado, or even Dallas. He would have been the wings 7th line center.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,329
15,975
Tokyo, Japan
He did suck by his standards late in his career. I don't care if he's your favorite or 2nd favorite player, those are the facts.
No, it isn't. It's your subjective impression.
Reality is after leaving new york, he wouldn't have made teams like Detroit or Colorado, or even Dallas.
Utter nonsense. Messier was still capable of being an NHL top-15 or 20 scorer when with Vancouver, as the stats show. And that was with a trainwreck / bad team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lannes

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
261
194
No, it isn't. It's your subjective impression.

Utter nonsense. Messier was still capable of being an NHL top-15 or 20 scorer when with Vancouver, as the stats show. And that was with a trainwreck / bad team.
It was a trainwreck/bad team because they had a 38 year old first line center who floated around, put up 50-60 points because he didn't care by that point.

If he was any good by that point in his career, Vancouver and later the Rangers wouldn't have been so trash.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,329
15,975
Tokyo, Japan
It was a trainwreck/bad team because they had a 38 year old first line center who floated around, put up 50-60 points because he didn't care by that point.

If he was any good by that point in his career, Vancouver and later the Rangers wouldn't have been so trash.
Unfortunately for your one-sided narrative, the Canucks were already -- before Messier arrived -- a playoff-missing team in decline, rife with locker-room divisions and a country-club atmosphere.

Fortunately for the Canucks' franchise, Mess helped straighten out a lot of these problems, and within two years the club was competitive again and heading in the right direction.

Canucks' fans should really all thank Messier.
 
  • Like
Reactions: barbu

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
79,378
54,933
Think of that New York Rangers team and the LA Kings up until 1995 as basically your 80s-Edmonton-Oilers-as-the-Roman-Empire split between the East and West, Rangers being the Byzantines, having migrated east.

Rangers managed to win that 1994 cup while the Kings, who at various times possessed the "other half" in Gretzky, Kurri, Coffey, McSorley, Huddy and later Fuhr did not.
 

Gorskyontario

Registered User
Feb 18, 2024
261
194
Unfortunately for your one-sided narrative, the Canucks were already -- before Messier arrived -- a playoff-missing team in decline, rife with locker-room divisions and a country-club atmosphere.

Fortunately for the Canucks' franchise, Mess helped straighten out a lot of these problems, and within two years the club was competitive again and heading in the right direction.

Canucks' fans should really all thank Messier.

That somehow makes less than zero sense. The canucks only improved when they lost Messier and his massive salary. The rangers continued being trash his entire 2nd tenure.


Mark? Is that you?
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
9,683
5,291
And, no, you're wrong again. The Canucks hugely improved in Messier's third season -- especially when he was in the line-up.
I think OTL make it look bigger than it was, they had way more wins the year before Messier arrival.

Before Messier arrived, Canucks finished 16th in points in the league, -16 team

Last Messier season they were 17th in the league (28 teams instead of 26 so about as close to a tie you can get) and were a -10 team.

seem generous to call it hugely improved versus pre-Messier arrival, they went from 13th best in actual wins in 1997 to 22th in the league in 2000.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad