How do you fix the Wings?

[jkutswings]

this is the same logic that created the Holland circle jerk perpetual decline. The organization has a growing core. Players like Kasper Mazurc Danileson, Cossa "are" the window. If you switch strategy to spending all your draft capitol to maintain a wild card presence news flash you stay a wild card team or worse. I can't believe to have to explain this when we literally just got out of living 7 years of it.

Yzerman has a good track record of trading, if something comes up he will pull the trigger. You know what he also has a good track record of, pulling talent in the first and second rounds of the draft.

Why is everyone acting like Larkin's peak has to be the window. Larkin is going to be a good player for a long time. Try to make some peace with the "plain as day" strategy and time line, and also acknowledge that it is working.

Also completely overlooking that fact that ELC contracts are key to being competitive. Any GM can blow their draft capitol to pull in some talent right now. You know what that leads to, cap penalization with no depth. If you want this window you keep mentioning its going to take more than 1 or 2 lines no matter how you time it. We don't want to be Burke era Toronto.

Tell me you didn't carefully read my post without telling me you didn't carefully read my post. I absolutely do NOT want to trade away all the youth or prospects or picks, just as I don't want to keep 100 percent of it either. It's a balance of maximizing assets.

 

[Retire91]

Tell me you didn't carefully read my post without telling me you didn't carefully read my post. I absolutely do NOT want to trade away all the youth or prospects or picks, just as I don't want to keep 100 percent of it either. It's a balance of maximizing assets.

I read your post, but I not only don't agree with the criticism I don't even understand it, what is Yzerman passing up with these youth assets he is apparently hoarding? In Tampa, he was very active and made many high profile moves. If moves where there he would be making them. The difference in Tampa is he had many more existing assets to work with. He has to be more conservative here by nature of the roster he started out with. We didn't end up on the high end of the outcome of this season and that sucks for everyone. But looking holistically every off season of Yzerman's stay here has been interesting with improvements. He grabbed Debrincat and Kane who are both players who should have more than satisfied the Yzerman is not doing anything to win now crowd. It's been like 7 days into the offseason, we haven't even seen anything he will do yet.

Yzerman isn't immune to criticism, and I also want to respect a fans right to complain. I know it sucks. I am seeing the bigger picture differently and to me its constant positive movement forward.

 

[The Zermanator]

It's a fair take. Yzerman has been great in the 1st round of drafting. 2nd round and later has been ugly especially when taking into account the number of draft picks. Free agency has also been ugly. Signing mediocre free agents to overpaid contracts to almost make the playoffs is something that pretty much any team can do. Detroit was the 7th oldest team last year, it's not like the young players outside of Raymond/Seider are carrying the team. Detroit is firmly in purgatory of not being good enough to make the playoffs, and not being bad enough to get into the lottery. The team still desperately needs a 1B center, #1 goalie, and 2 top 4 dmen, and thats not taking into account the likely departures of Kane/Perron. Bottom line is this team needs elite talent

Raymond, a 4th overall pick (and a good one at that), is just now reaching his potential and establishing himself. If you think the lack of 2nd round and later Yzerman picks on the current roster is a reflection of poor drafting, then I would suggest you have unrealistic expectations of the speed at which 2nd round and later picks become NHL regulars. The reality is, they usually don't establish themselves in the NHL at all, let alone within a few years of being drafted. Beyond the blue chips he has drafted in the 1st round (didn't even mention ASP originally), there's also Johansson, Wallinder, Mazur, and Augustine to name several good prospects in the next tier. And that's by no means an exhaustive list. I seriously do not understand how anyone can fault his drafting with a straight face.

Kane was a fantastic free agent signing. Lyon, Compher, Perron, Ghost, and Fischer were good signings. Chiarot was decent this year. Sprong played his role well enough. So having Copp at 1.5M too high (Copp at 4M is a good contract), and Holl taking up space invalidates all that? When they don't even have a cap problem? Calling his free agent signings 'ugly' is pure hyperbole.

And no, Detroit is not in 'purgatory' after one season on the playoff bubble. Do the people making this claim think that teams just go from the basement to suddenly contending for Cups?? The team went from a basement-dweller to a team that missed out on a playoff spot by 1 single point on the last game of the season, that's called progress. And they're primed for more progress over the next few years as Raymond and Seider improve while declining vets are progressively replaced by our deep and talented prospect pool which is consistently ranked in the top 3-5 in the entire league by fans and media alike.

All those things you mentioned the team 'desperately needs' may very well already be in the system. 1B centre (Danielson), #1 goalie (Cossa or Augustine), and two top 4 dmen (Edvinsson, ASP, Johansson, Wallinder). And that's not counting the possibility he could leverage his deep prospect pool to trade for those players. He has a well estblished history of consistently coming out ahead in his trades. He did that last offseason when he got Debrincat. How about we see what the roster looks like in October before we start thinking the sky is falling?

 

[The Zermanator]

I'll start by saying I object to the framing of the title as the Wings needing to be 'fixed'. They just need to continue the trend they've been on for years. Initially Yzerman needed to replenish the organization's depth before the on-ice product could improve. He did that and we're at that second stage now. So how do I 'fix' the Wings? I have Yzerman keep doing exactly what he's been doing.

1. Continue improving internally and bringing in more value through the draft. He got ASP at #17 last year, no reason he can't pick up another good player this year. Including with his later picks.

2. Let some contracts expire or ship out some dead weight to make some room to work in ready prospects. On defense Edvinsson should have a spot to start the year, and there needs to be room for Johansson as the #7 getting regular reps by sitting the older vets. On offense we have a few contracts expiring which will make space for Berggren and make room for Mazur to get some looks whenever there are injuries. Kasper could earn himself a 3rd/4th line spot too.

3. Figure out a better stopgap in net for a couple seasons until Cossa and/or Augustine are ready. Let Reimer walk. Hopefully Husso could be traded with a sweetener for a better goalie with Lyon as his backup. If Lyon needs to be the one to go instead, then Husso can be the backup.

4. Bring in a good asset or two via trade depending on what's available and the asking price.

This is a roster made up of players currently under contract for next season:

Debrincat-Larkin-Raymond
Fabbri-Compher-Berggren
Rasmussen-Copp-xxx
Kasper-Veleno-xxx

Walman-Seider
Edvinsson-Petry
Maatta-Chiarot
Holl

Lyon
Husso

In terms of actual moves I would make, I'm hesitant to make any specific trade proposals just because they are dependent on so many factors in terms of who is available, where they want to play if any NTC/NMC are involved, what their team wants for them, and how many other suitors there are and what they're willing to pay. And in terms of free agents, there are just as many factors.

Goaltending: I would hope to improve at goal, like I said. That could mean trading one of Husso or Lyon with a sweetener for an upgrade, or trading for an upgrade in goal with non-goalie prospects and burying Husso in the AHL (hoping he gets claimed).

Forwards: I would like to re-sign Kane because of what he can bring. If he doesn't then Stamkos could be a good replacement for that short term high-end veteran. But in either event I'd like to trade Fabbri for an upgrade at wing who will be a bit bigger and tougher to play against because we'd have a lot of small wingers. I'd like to see Fisher re-signed as well, he provided good value on the 4th line. Perron could come back as a veteran presence at a reduced role and salary as well, no more than 2-2.5M on a 1 yr deal.

Defense: Trade Maatta to make space, which shouldn't be hard at his cap hit and talent level. Make a move for Pesce, if he signs unload Petry for whatever anyone will pay, retain or sweeten with a low pick if necessary. Re-sign Ghost if he'll come back at a reasonable cap hit as the PP specialist until ASP is ready. Trade Holl with a sweetener.

I'd love to see a trade for a good young 2C, even if that means trading Danielson in the package, but having anyone in mind I'll just ignore that.

So my realistic wish roster to start next season would be this:

Debrincat-Larkin-Raymond
Fabbri-Compher-Kane
Rasmussen-Copp-Berggren
Kasper-Veleno-Fischer
Perron

Walman-Seider
Edvinsson-Pesce
Chiarot-Ghost
Johansson

Gibson (Husso traded with sweetener)
Lyon

 

[cvaicunas]

I like Danielson alot but that would have been a recipe to destroy a kids confidence. Preseason vs 82 games is a different animal.

Yea, I think it was the preseason game against Toronto, and they were playing some of their big guys, and Danielson predictably had a poorer showing.

 

[Winger98]

Still blows my mind that the league's takeaway from Edmonton getting multiple #1s and still sucking was to make #1 picks harder to get. All they seemed to care about was the PR side of things.

What the league did was very intentional. I am very curious to see how much longer this system will last.

I mean we aren't saying anything new here, this was all pretty easy to predict if you just broke it down.

1) Most franchise changing players come from the top 2-3 picks of the draft.
2) The league made it so if you finished dead last your most likely scenario was still picking outside the top 3.
3) As a result of 1) and 2), you will now have teams either stuck at the bottom or in purgatory.

I mean could you imagine if the Bears were picking 4th instead of 1st in the NFL draft this week? They would probably still continue to suck.

I don't think it was Edmonton that really pushed the change. They drafted high all of the time but they were just a bad organization and it's not something the NHL hasn't seen before. Quebec drafted high for several years and that's largely how they got the players and the capital to put their teams together. Ditto Pittsburgh. I think what did it was Buffalo unabashedly shedding every half way decent player to try to get McDavid. I remember them literally dealing a goalie when a goalie started playing well because they were determined to just lose as much as possible.

And then lost out on McDavid.

Yeah, I think it was still partially about appearances. But it was Buffalo making a total mockery of the league that did it, not Edmonton being a tire fire.

 

[mcityguy1]

Yzerman job should be on the line. He hired lalonde who's best as assistant coach. The players he signed were underachieving expect kane I think he will walk ans signs with better team and will get paid. Debrincan should've scored more

 

[dalem177]

Yzerman job should be on the line. He hired lalonde who's best as assistant coach. The players he signed were underachieving expect kane I think he will walk ans signs with better team and will get paid. Debrincan should've scored more

 

[lilidk]

I love the, "Yzerman messed up, we needed to tank more crowd".

Buffalo has two 1 overalls on their blue line and tons of picks throughout this org, where did that get them?

New Jersey has two 1 overalls at C and a 2 overall on their blue line, and they made a big trade for a top line power forward. How did their season go?

Rebuilds are not an exact science, no matter what path you take and you can't plan for a 1 overall anyway because of the lottery. At some point you have to try and win, the Wings are doing that.

You need to get Lucky when you draft first overall, some times you end up with Yakupov and sometimes with McKinnon.

 

[Filppula]

You need to get Lucky when you draft first overall, some times you end up with Yakupov and sometimes with McKinnon.

And Cade Cunningham. Who can’t seem to stay fit. #1 overall is big time luck for sure.

 

[lilidk]

Let's compere this team core future to Tampa present
Larkin<Stamkos
Raymond< Kucherov
Seider< Hedman
Cossa < Vasilevsky
? - Point
Our guys not as good as Tampa , but not by much and somehow we need to get one more core piece . We might have it already if Danielson or ASP will progress well

 

[Peter Tosh]

It's going to be tough to get the same kind of depth next season.
- Cap projected to 87,5 in my scenario
- Wishful thinking to sign Ghost 3 x 5,5? (Realistically, he's probably gone)
- Wishful thinking to sign Kane 3 x 6,5?
- Wishful thinking to sign Perron 1 x 1,8?
- Petry on LTIR - I'm sure he must be injured in some way
- Trading Maataa for a third
- Trading Holl + rights to Berggren for a third (bad asset mngmnt?)

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's going to be tough to get the same kind of depth next season.
- Cap projected to 87,5 in my scenario
- Wishful thinking to sign Ghost 3 x 5,5? (Realistically, he's probably gone)
- Wishful thinking to sign Kane 3 x 6,5?
- Wishful thinking to sign Perron 1 x 1,8?
- Petry on LTIR - I'm sure he must be injured in some way
- Trading Maataa for a third
- Trading Holl + rights to Berggren for a third (bad asset mngmnt?)


View attachment 858067

No way in hell I would sign Kane/Ghost to those contracts.

 

[Oddbob]

It's going to be tough to get the same kind of depth next season.
- Cap projected to 87,5 in my scenario
- Wishful thinking to sign Ghost 3 x 5,5? (Realistically, he's probably gone)
- Wishful thinking to sign Kane 3 x 6,5?
- Wishful thinking to sign Perron 1 x 1,8?
- Petry on LTIR - I'm sure he must be injured in some way
- Trading Maataa for a third
- Trading Holl + rights to Berggren for a third (bad asset mngmnt?)


View attachment 858067

A 35 year old gets a high money 3 year deal? Ghost is a guy who needs to be protected 5 on 5 a lot, so he shouldn't be getting 5+ a year and certainly not a 3 year deal. Ghost is good on the PP, but basically a complete liability in most other areas.

I am fine if we don't even try to bring Kane back. One of the things that bothers me about him, is while he will get a good amount of points, outside offence he looks quite disinterested in even attempting to play any defence. His offence isn't so good that he can completely check out in his own end. Also, at the end of the season, he was trying a lot of flat out bad passing options to dangerous areas and having them easily picked off. Also, when Cat is on his line, it honestly looks like he is ONLY looking for Cat and no one else, unless Cat is completely covered. Chemistry or not, forcing it isn't a good option.

 

[Henkka]

It's going to be tough to get the same kind of depth next season.
- Cap projected to 87,5 in my scenario
- Wishful thinking to sign Ghost 3 x 5,5? (Realistically, he's probably gone)
- Wishful thinking to sign Kane 3 x 6,5?
- Wishful thinking to sign Perron 1 x 1,8?

Ghost will probably get 1-year 5.5M, but from somewhere else.

We already have 8 defencemen, when Albert Johansson will be promoted.

Kane could easily get 800k base salary and 5-6M in bonuses for 1-year.

Perron could easily get 800k base salary and 1-2M in bonuses for 1-year.

 

[Snuggs]

Let's compere this team core future to Tampa present
Larkin<Stamkos
Raymond< Kucherov
Seider< Hedman
Cossa < Vasilevsky
? - Point
Our guys not as good as Tampa , but not by much and somehow we need to get one more core piece . We might have it already if Danielson or ASP will progress well

Lets look at TB drafting outside of the first round that went into the NHL in 2 years or less...

(Cirelli,Palat,Point,Kucherov.) Might even be more.

Tampa bay was also better (so far) at drafting outside the first round. Around here everyone expects a 2nd rounder or lower pick to take 18 years to develop like they're 5 years olds walking into Kidner Gaden at the local elementary school.

 

[lilidk]

Lets look at TB drafting outside of the first round that went into the NHL in 2 years or less...

(Cirelli,Palat,Point,Kucherov.) Might even be more.

Tampa bay was also better (so far) at drafting outside the first round. Around here everyone expects a 2nd rounder or lower pick to take 18 years to develop like they're 5 years olds walking into Kidner Gaden at the local elementary school.

I like to see change the way we draft. Currently Zetterberg projects 75 in consolidated draft , means we could get him with our second round. Nobody expect 5'8" guy be center in NHL, but still could end up top six forward

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I don't think it was Edmonton that really pushed the change. They drafted high all of the time but they were just a bad organization and it's not something the NHL hasn't seen before. Quebec drafted high for several years and that's largely how they got the players and the capital to put their teams together. Ditto Pittsburgh. I think what did it was Buffalo unabashedly shedding every half way decent player to try to get McDavid. I remember them literally dealing a goalie when a goalie started playing well because they were determined to just lose as much as possible.

And then lost out on McDavid.

Yeah, I think it was still partially about appearances. But it was Buffalo making a total mockery of the league that did it, not Edmonton being a tire fire.

That's my memory of Buffalo around that time. Desperately racing to the bottom. But I think the number of 1st overalls by Edmonton was a factor as well.

It was honestly even more ridiculous than I remembered, but the Oilers got the 1st overall pick in:

2015 = McDavid
2012 = Yakupov
2011 = Ryan Nugent Hopkins
2010 = Taylor Hall

And then Draisaitl at #3 in 2014 as icing on the cake.

Four 1st overall picks in six drafts is absurd, and bad for the league to have that much top talent going to one team.

 

[Retire91]

Oil is an oversimplified outlier argument and Bruins is the equal and opposit oversimplified argument. People that don't understand hockey will point to Oil's first overall picks and completely ignore the fact that they had terrible management. People will point to Boston and say see they didn't need picks completely ignoring that they had second overall from Toronto and also had Norris winner Chara and Vezna winner Thomas literally walk onto the team. In some ways I feel jealous, I wonder if life would be more blissful to see the world in simplified terms.

Let's give Yzerman 3 first overall's or let's give him a free second overall, a free Norris D and a free Vezna goalie and see if he can open a window. Circumstances from other teams don't always apply when the situations are completely different. You can't sign your way to the cup unless you are incredibly incredibly lucky, you can't tank your way to the cup if you have terrible management building the supporting cast.

 

[Frk It]

I don't think it was Edmonton that really pushed the change. They drafted high all of the time but they were just a bad organization and it's not something the NHL hasn't seen before. Quebec drafted high for several years and that's largely how they got the players and the capital to put their teams together. Ditto Pittsburgh. I think what did it was Buffalo unabashedly shedding every half way decent player to try to get McDavid. I remember them literally dealing a goalie when a goalie started playing well because they were determined to just lose as much as possible.

And then lost out on McDavid.

Yeah, I think it was still partially about appearances. But it was Buffalo making a total mockery of the league that did it, not Edmonton being a tire fire.

I think you’re correct here.

That was pretty ridiculous as far as trading a goalie who won too much…. We could never relate to that.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

The real problem the Wings are facing is that Dylan Larkin doesn't fit the team's timeline. He doesn't fit the rebuild, which still has a couple of years to go before it's completely online.

Spicy, I know. I don't like it either. But I think that's the truth. That's why you see all this talk about trading picks, trading prospects, etc.. It's not because the rebuild has taken too long, or anything like that, it's that speeding things up is the only way the current roster decisions can even make sense. It's the only way keeping Larkin can make sense. He's 27, and the rebuild is just starting to take root. Several key pieces haven't even made the NHL. Larkin going to be past his prime by the time that prospect group is ready to compete in earnest.

The question becomes, do you trade picks and prospects away to match Larkin's timeframe, or do you trade away Larkin? Obviously the latter is going to be the most popular option, but I'm not so sure it's clearly the best option.

 

[Retire91]

I don't feel as worried about Larkin. Just picking a few random center. Mike Ribero at 36 years old scored 60+ points with the preds as a number two C. Olli Jokinen 60+ points with the flames at 33. Madano 77 pts at 33. Stamkos 81 points at 34 this season. It's not like you age out of the NHL at 30. Larkin fits as the high producing minute munching vet when the window opens. If we land someone that makes him a number 2 C holy cow this team would be set.

 

[norrisnick]

The real problem the Wings are facing is that Dylan Larkin doesn't fit the team's timeline. He doesn't fit the rebuild, which still has a couple of years to go before it's completely online.

Spicy, I know. I don't like it either. But I think that's the truth. That's why you see all this talk about trading picks, trading prospects, etc.. It's not because the rebuild has taken too long, or anything like that, it's that speeding things up is the only way the current roster decisions can even make sense. It's the only way keeping Larkin can make sense. He's 27, and the rebuild is just starting to take root. Several key pieces haven't even made the NHL. Larkin going to be past his prime by the time that prospect group is ready to compete in earnest.

The question becomes, do you trade picks and prospects away to match Larkin's timeframe, or do you trade away Larkin? Obviously the latter is going to be the most popular option, but I'm not so sure it's clearly the best option.

There is nothing wrong with a veteran presence leading a younger core.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

There is nothing wrong with a veteran presence leading a younger core.

Right, but I think the concern is that it would be a relatively mediocre younger supporting cast being led by an older core-of-one. Right now it just doesn't seem like there are any Larkins in the system.

 

[norrisnick]

Right, but I think the concern is that it would be a relatively mediocre younger supporting cast being led by an older core-of-one. Right now it just doesn't seem like there are any Larkins in the system.

If in the next handful of years the core isn't firmly Mo, Ed, Ray, Danielson, Kasper, Cossa/Augustine with Larks as a Landeskog-esque captain then it doesn't really matter one way or the other.