bobholly39
Registered User
- Mar 10, 2013
- 22,501
- 15,321
What part of Hull, Richard, Howe, Beliveau and Mikita were competing for the same Art Ross trophies is not being understood here exactly?
In the 18 year period from 1950-1968 only 6 names appear on the Art Ross.
Howe 6
Mikita 4
Hull 3
Geoffrion 2
Moore 2
Beliveau 1
Richard doesn't make it on there because he was much more of a goal scorer than a points guy and he was up against a prime Howe for more than half of his career.
Much like OV in 09/10, suspension cost Richard the '55 Art Ross. Richard was ahead by 2 points at the time of the suspension. Geoffrion had 3 points in the final 3 games to edge him by 1.
Geoffrion's other Art Ross and Moore's 2 back to back were all from monster career seasons by both players.
It took Beliveau having one of the best overall seasons ever by a player not named Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux just to win his 1 Art Ross.
What does that tell you about what he was up against?
Remind me again who Crosby has CONSISTENTLY been competing for Art Ross trophies with again...
*Crickets*
Thornton
Crosby
OV
Sedin
Sedin
Malkin
St Louis
Kane
Benn
Vs
Howe
Hull
Beliveau
Richard
Mikita
Geoffrion
Moore
One of these lists is not like the other by juuuuust a little bit
There are different ways to look at things.
There is a LOT more competition in today's NHL then there was in the 50s. More elite players, more elite competition. Hence winning the art ross is more difficult.
Henrik Sedin had a career year. And beat out Crosby for the Ross. Yup. But was that a "weak" Art Ross? I don't think it was. It's generally considered a rather strong one. That year Crosby had 109 points to Sedin's 112, tied for 2nd place. Not that bad, and tiny margin of victory.
St-Louis? Sure but Crosby had the Ross in the bag in 13. That was unfortunate injury, so let's be serious.
Kane had a career year. And Crosby had a HORRENDOUS first 20 games (his fault, yup). But he did come pretty damn close to catching up in the 2nd half of the season and made a race out of it for 2nd place, finishing 3rd.
Benn. 87 points. Crosby 84 points. Crosby first in PPG that year. not a great year maybe, but still first in ppg and again "barely" beaten to ross.
There are more top stars in today's NHL who are able to put together a strong career year than there were back in the 50s and 60s. And as such, it's harder to dominate the art ross race now then in the past because the margin of error is non-existent.
Crosby is no Lemieux or Gretzky. Only 2 players in history capable of dominating the art ross race no matter what every year.
But ok if you want to argue in bad faith and throw a bunch of names out there and pretend like the reason Beliveau/Hull/Howe get a pass is because they had tougher competition.
You saying "only 6 names won the Ross between 1950 and 1968" counts for ZERO (zilch) if more than 6 names consistently beat out others. And plenty did. Beliveau doesn't only have 1 Art Ross because he finished 2nd or 3rd every other year to those 6 names. Same for Hull, and Howe. They all lost to much lesser players, by much bigger margins, and much more often than Crosby has. Let's look at their best years.
In 1958 Beliveau got surpassed in points and points per game by Henri Richard, Andy Bathgate, Bronco Horvath.
In 1960 Beliveau got passed in points By Hull but also Bronco Horvath
In 1961. Beliveau lost out to Geoffrion the art ross
in 1962. Beliveau only plays 43 games. But his ppg is below 1.0. Well out of top 5 in the league (less). Worst than any offensive season Crosby ever had, by far.
1963. Beliveau 67 points in 69 points. Well outside of top 5 in art Ross race, and well outside of top 5 in ppg. Again, worst than anything Crosby has ever done.
Bobby Hull.
1960 Art Ross. Great
1961. 56 points in 67 games. Outside top 5 in scoring or ppg. Much worst than any season by Crosby to date.
1962. Art Ross. Great
1963. 62 points in 65 games. Well outside top 5 in scoring or PPG. Much worst than any season by Crosby to date.
1964. 87 points in 70 games. Strong season, only beaten by Mikita
1965. 71 points in 61 games. Beaten by Norm Ullman in both points, and ppg, among others
1966. Art Ross. Great
1967. 80 points in 66 games. Beaten only by Mikita
1968. 75 points in 71 games. Outside of top 5 in scoring. Beaten by Ratelle, Gilbert and others.
1969. 107 points, 2nd place. But practically "lapped" by Esposito at 126 points. Nobody has really ever "lapped" Crosby like that
1970. 61 games, 67 points. horrible season, way worst than anything Crosby has done. Way outside of top 5 in scoring/ppg. Beaten by people like Goyette, Tkaczuk among others. The ross was won at 120 points, almost double his amount. Imagine Sidney Crosby scoring 80 points in a mostly full season, while someone else scoring close to 140? That's how much Bobby Orr beat him by (and yes I know it's Orr - but still he's a defenseman and a bunch of other forwards beat him by a lot, too).
I'm sorry but when i compare the records of Hull, Beliveau and Crosby - Crosby is FAR ahead when it comes to dominating offensively during the regular season, even when you consider competition. His consistency at the top is unmatched by the others.