How can a guy be 15 times a Norris trophy finalist and never win a Hart?

[VanIslander]

Bourque had two fewer second place votes to Messier in the closest Hart trophy race ever in 1990. It wasn't one of Ray's highest goal scoring or point scoring seasons, but he was a two-way force in getting his team to the Stanley Cup Finals. He may have been bested by a post-Gretz Moose on the loose that year. But what about all the other years?

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[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Offensive players always garner votes over defensive play. How it's always been

 

[BenchBrawl]

Bourque had two fewer second place votes to Messier in the closest Hart trophy race ever in 1990. It wasn't one of Ray's highest goal scoring or point scoring seasons, but he was a two-way force in getting his team to the Stanley Cup Finals. He may have been bested by a post-Gretz Moose on the loose that year. But what about all the other years?

Strange thread considering you know very well who won the Hart those years.

You covered 1990.

If a defenseman wins the Hart, it's a good bet he would win the Norris too.

So let's look at the other years he won the Norris:

1987:
Bourque 2nd in Hart to Gretzky
Gretzky scores 183 pts, next scorer has 108 pts

1988:
Bourque 8th in Hart
Lemieux scores 168 pts and breaks Gretzky's hegemony on the Hart trophy

1991:
Bourque 4th in Hart
Hull wins the Hart with 86 goals, Gretzky close 2nd with 163 pts in LA

1994:
Bourque 6th in Hart
Fedorov scores 120 pts (2nd in pts) and wins the Selke and Hart. Hasek came 2nd.

So really, Bourque would have won the Hart if Gretzky didn't exist in 1987, and almost won it in 1990. Considering it's harder to get recognition for the Hart as a defenseman since WWII, it's a really solid record.

 

[overpass]

Bourque was part of the Hart conversation with Fedorov, Hasek, and Vanbiesbrouck for the Hart in 1993-94 near the end of the season. His late season injury took him out of the running.

 

[Matsun]

When it comes to creating goals forwards have more value and when it comes to stopping goals goalies have more value so it becomes hard for a d-man to win Hart. What needs to happen is that a d-man needs to be truly outstanding or there are no good forwards or goalies. I don't know if it's fair but I think that's how the voters think.

This season could've been a good chance for someone like Makar to win a Hart trophy. He has hype, anything a forward does will be judged against McDavid last season and there is no strong goalie season. MacKinnon ended up dominating and Makar has missed games so he won't win but I think the circumstances where there this season.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Because the media had a giant hard on for Messier.

He got robbed in 90 when some left him off their ballot

 

[wetcoast]

The simple and most logical answer is that there is a trophy for the best all around Dman and thus Dmen are less likely to get hart consideration plain and simple.

Heck even Bobby Orr basically got jobbed for the Hart a couple of times.

 

[tmg]

Bourque had two fewer second place votes to Messier in the closest Hart trophy race ever in 1990. It wasn't one of Ray's highest goal scoring or point scoring seasons, but he was a two-way force in getting his team to the Stanley Cup Finals.

Even then, the awards voting was done after regular season but before or very-early-in the playoffs, was it not? I know it is now and has been for decades at least. The voting can’t consider “getting his team to the Stanley Cup finals” in their vote if the voting closes at start of playoffs.

 

[Stephen]

The simple and most logical answer is that there is a trophy for the best all around Dman and thus Dmen are less likely to get hart consideration plain and simple.

Heck even Bobby Orr basically got jobbed for the Hart a couple of times.

The simple answer is while Bourque delivered Hart caliber season(s) he wasn't deserving the Hart Trophy in any season going up head to head against prime Gretzky, early prime Lemieux, Hull's all time, second highest goals scoring total, and Fedorov's coming out party.

 

[dafoomie]

Because Edmonton writers left him off their ballots in 1990 to help Messier.

 

[Johnny Engine]

The one I particularly didn't like was 2019, where 165 of 171 voters agreed that the team with Mark Giordano on the ice had the very best defenseman on the ice all year. However, by a a total of 74 votes to 20, they also seemed to agree that the main reason that team had a good season was that their small, non-physical left winger with no particular defensive reputation finished 7th in the league in points.
I'll admit that I didn't see a lot of those players that year, they play very late in the night. But it did read to me like the voters had decided that under no circumstances were any defenseman to be considered the main reason their teams were sinking or swimming that year, and that doesn't jibe with my understanding of how the game is played.

 

[daver]

The same way that a 7 time Norris winner never got particularly close to winning one?

 

[VanIslander]

Because Edmonton writers left him off their ballots in 1990 to help Messier.

That was page 3 of the sports section of the Sun. I am impressed it made it to the Internet age. Link? Or just our memory.

 

[The Panther]

Because Edmonton writers left him off their ballots in 1990 to help Messier.

This has long since been debunked, so no.

Also, 1990 isn't "15 years".

 

[VanIslander]

By debunked you mean a secretary of the team claimed her vote ranking (no Bourque anywhere) reflected an "admitted" Western conference bias.

 

[The Panther]

By debunked you mean a secretary of the team claimed her vote ranking (no Bourque anywhere) reflected an "admitted" Western conference bias.

Good for her for admitting what is obvious -- western conference voters probably are biased to the west; eastern conference are probably biased to the east. Is this news?

As memory serves, 10 writers left Bourque off their ballots. Edmonton had 3 writers voting.

 

[MadLuke]

As memory serves, 10 writers left Bourque off their ballots. Edmonton had 3 writers voting.

If they all voted 3 times and if hockey reference show all the vote

There was 63 voters, all of them voted for Messier, 6 left Bourque out.

 

[reckoning]

Messier 29-24-10
Bourque 29-26-2

Voting is done by secret ballot, so unless the three Edmonton writers came out and said they all left Bourque off their ballot, nobody knows who didn't vote for him. There's no conspiracy, and I say that as someone who believes Bourque deserved the Hart that year.

Six voters not picking Bourque as of the three best players is strange. But the year before, in arguably Mario Lemieux's greatest season ever, two writers didn't have him on their ballot. There lots of weird Hart Trophy voting in history.

 

[MadLuke]

There's no conspiracy

There is absolutely no need for a conspiracy here, voters just need to not put him on the ballot, they do not to coordinate between each other at all or even know other will.

Lemieux's greatest season ever, two writers didn't have him on their ballot.

Which could be for the exact same reason, maybe some voter considered he was a second or third place Hart candidate that year but to help their number 1 pick did leave him out of their ballot. If anything that more an argument pointing that it would be very possible for something like that to happen.

Has for 6 voters not voting for Bourque at all being strange, Art Ross winner getting vote is rarely strange even that year, Hull scored 72 goals, Messier had a great season, Lafontaine could be trying hard to interpret to his team here.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Bruins' Bourque out until playoffs​

Mar 24, 1994

Still reeling from a season-ending knee injury to Cam Neely, the Boston Bruins took another hit Wednesday.

Defenseman Ray Bourque was diagnosed with a sprained medial collateral ligament in his right knee. The good news: He is expected to return in time for the playoffs.

Bourque, a leading candidate for the Hart Trophy for league most valuable player, was hurt Tuesday in a 5-3 loss at Quebec.

He was examined Wednesday by Dr. Bertram Zarins at Massachusetts General Hospital.

On Wednesday, Bourque was at practice, wearing a knee immobilizer brace like that worn by Neely, who tore his medial collateral ligament.

"While we cannot place a definite time frame on rehabilitation, we fully expect him to return for the start of the playoffs," Bruins general manager Harry Sinden said.

Bourque leads NHL defensemen in scoring and is eighth overall in scoring, with 20 goals and 71 assists.

source


i don’t know that he was definitely going to win the hart that year, what with magic years from fedorov, hasek, and beezer, but there was a chance, as bourque was on pace to finally score 100 pts. if he hadn’t missed the last eleven games, he would have finished with 105 if he’d kept up exactly the same pace. it’s hard for a guy as consistently great as bourque to break through and truly contend for a hart unless something special happens, like leading his team in pts by 20+ pts like in 1987 or winning the presidents trophy like in 1990, but maybe 105 pts does the trick.

 

[daver]

Strange thread considering you know very well who won the Hart those years.

You covered 1990.

If a defenseman wins the Hart, it's a good bet he would win the Norris too.

So let's look at the other years he won the Norris:

1987:
Bourque 2nd in Hart to Gretzky
Gretzky scores 183 pts, next scorer has 108 pts

1988:
Bourque 8th in Hart
Lemieux scores 168 pts and breaks Gretzky's hegemony on the Hart trophy

1991:
Bourque 4th in Hart
Hull wins the Hart with 86 goals, Gretzky close 2nd with 163 pts in LA

1994:
Bourque 6th in Hart
Fedorov scores 120 pts (2nd in pts) and wins the Selke and Hart. Hasek came 2nd.

So really, Bourque would have won the Hart if Gretzky didn't exist in 1987, and almost won it in 1990. Considering it's harder to get recognition for the Hart as a defenseman since WWII, it's a really solid record.

Here are the Top Ten Hart finishes by the best d-men in the post-Orr era (Norris wins in parathesis):

Bourque (5) - 2, 2, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 10

Potvin (3) - 2, 4, 7, 7, 9, 9

Lidstrom (7) - 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Karlsson (3) - 5, 8, 9, 9

Chelios (3) - 5, 7, 10

Coffey (3) - 4. 4, 10

Neidermayer (1) - 8, 9

Pronger (1) - 1

Keith (2) - N/A


Bourque really stands out here. Lidstrom underwhelms but you could argue that he was on great teams so he wasn't as "valuable". Potvin's Hart record would counter this argument though.

Have Hart voters moved away from rating D-men higher in voting since the '90s?

Karlsson seems to have gotten a reasonable amount of Hart recognition based on his Norris wins so perhaps not.

And Pronger won a Hart during Lidstrom's prime so there's that too.

 

[Legion34]

This is an odd way to phrase that. The years he was a finalist and didn’t win the Norris. He was voted to be not the best d in the league. You think it was likely to Win the hart years whwn you don’t even win the Norris?

 

[authentic]

When it comes to creating goals forwards have more value and when it comes to stopping goals goalies have more value so it becomes hard for a d-man to win Hart. What needs to happen is that a d-man needs to be truly outstanding or there are no good forwards or goalies. I don't know if it's fair but I think that's how the voters think.

This season could've been a good chance for someone like Makar to win a Hart trophy. He has hype, anything a forward does will be judged against McDavid last season and there is no strong goalie season. MacKinnon ended up dominating and Makar has missed games so he won't win but I think the circumstances where there this season.

Defensemen influence both more than either though

 

[Ishdul]

Pronger is the only defenseman to be nominated since Bourque in 1990, and looking through HRef none of the guys who finished 4th were particularly close to 3rd place. So 1 nominee in 32 seasons with 3 nominees a year for 96 nominees total.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

it is weird to me that defencemen, the best of which probably influence more of the game than stars of any other position, are so chronically underrepresented in MVP voting. by definition, they should be dominating the hart trophy.

it’s also odd that dmen are less underrepresented in conn smythe voting.

by my tally, these were years where i could have had a dman win:

1990: bourque
1995: coffey
2000: pronger
2003: macinnis
2017: karlsson
2024: hughes

and here are my plausible dman conn smythes, though not every one of these guys would have been my first pick:

1989: macinnis
1992: chelios
1994: leetch
1995: stevens
1997: lidstrom
2000: stevens
2002: lidstrom
2003: niedermayer
2006: pronger
2010: keith
2011: chara
2012: doughty
2013: keith
2014: doughty
2015: keith
2016: letang
2020: hedman
2022: makar

so weird that there wasn’t a hart-worthy season by a dman between 2003 and 2017, but every conn smythe between 2010 and 2016 could have gone to a dman and i wouldn’t have blinked.