Friedman: Horvat Talks Intensifying [Update: Jan 20, 2023 - #679]

[UrbanImpact]

Horvat is not a 1c on a contender.

If he was the selke caliber, rocket richard caliber 1c that Canuck fans are selling him as Vancouver would be comfortably in the playoffs with all their other offensive weapons and their coach wouldn't have been fired.

Nothing funnier than when players get pegged into a slot like its NHL 23 on Playstation.

"Horvat is not a 1C on a contender"

So if Horvat gets traded to Edmonton does that mean he is a 3C now?

If Hughes gets moved to Carolina, hes a 3rd pairing Dman now?

The whole point is to create the best team possible, which means its possible to have more than one 1C on a team or more than 1 top pairing Dman on the team.

Whats the point of labeling Horvat as a 1, 2, 3 C? what Horvat is , is a 30-40 goal scorer, 60-70 point Centre that will also be elite on the faceoffs and has shown to be dominant in every level of hockey when the playoffs start coming around.

-OHL playoff MVP
- Led the NHL in goals in the playoffs at the time Vegas eliminated the Canucks in 7 games a couple of seasons ago.

He turns it up for sure and a beast you want in a 7 game series.

Whether thats a 1, 2, 3, C its irrelevant labeling.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

Dhaliwal says keep an eye on Brandon Carlo from the Bruins.

I'd personally be very unsatisfied if Carlo is the main piece coming back for Horvat.

Cost controlled for 4 more years after this season which is nice but he has injury history and i also feel like he has hit his ceiling which is a top 4 stay at home Dman.

Even if its aa package of Carlo and Lysell i think id be underwhelmed.

It seems though that the Canucks might be pegging Carlo as the perfect Dpartner for Hughes.

He also fits that u26 player that Rutherford said they are looking for.

Hughes needs a young guy like this. I'd be more unsatisfied if a 1st didn't come back with Carlo. I bet the try to get Schenn as well if they are losing a top 4 RHD in Carlo?

Horvat + Schenn for Carlo + 2023 1st + 2024 1st?

 

[wintersej]

Dhaliwal says keep an eye on Brandon Carlo from the Bruins.

I'd personally be very unsatisfied if Carlo is the main piece coming back for Horvat.

Cost controlled for 4 more years after this season which is nice but he has injury history and i also feel like he has hit his ceiling which is a top 4 stay at home Dman.

Even if its aa package of Carlo and Lysell i think id be underwhelmed.

It seems though that the Canucks might be pegging Carlo as the perfect Dpartner for Hughes.

He also fits that u26 player that Rutherford said they are looking for.

He would be a perfect partner for Hughes (as he was for Krug), but I fail to see why Boston would move him in season. Horvat fills a long term need, but is an awkward fit on the current Bruins roster. Worse, the Bruins would have created a big exposable hole on the teams D group. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[Slapshot_11]

Hughes needs a young guy like this. I'd be more unsatisfied if a 1st didn't come back with Carlo. I bet the try to get Schenn as well if they are losing a top 4 RHD in Carlo?

Horvat + Schenn for Carlo + 2023 1st + 2024 1st?

Bruins firsts are like 2nd round picks, I wouldn't do that

 

[UrbanImpact]

Hughes needs a young guy like this. I'd be more unsatisfied if a 1st didn't come back with Carlo. I bet the try to get Schenn as well if they are losing a top 4 RHD in Carlo?

Horvat + Schenn for Carlo + 2023 1st + 2024 1st?

I dont want to package Horvat and Schenn together because it can dilute the return.

Boston's firsts are meh, id rather trade Horvat to a non playoff team willing to trade away their 2024 first and gamble that we can turn that first intop a top 12 pick. A team like Columbus or Detroit who might be willing to do that if we allow Horvat to extend with them first before the trade.

 

[Profet]

Nothing funnier than when players get pegged into a slot like its NHL 23 on Playstation.

"Horvat is not a 1C on a contender"

So if Horvat gets traded to Edmonton does that mean he is a 3C now?

If Hughes gets moved to Carolina, hes a 3rd pairing Dman now?

The whole point is to create the best team possible, which means its possible to have more than one 1C on a team or more than 1 top pairing Dman on the team.

Whats the point of labeling Horvat as a 1, 2, 3 C? what Horvat is , is a 30-40 goal scorer, 60-70 point Centre that will also be elite on the faceoffs and has shown to be dominant in every level of hockey when the playoffs start coming around.

-OHL playoff MVP
- Led the NHL in goals in the playoffs at the time Vegas eliminated the Canucks in 7 games a couple of seasons ago.

He turns it up for sure and a beast you want in a 7 game series.

Whether thats a 1, 2, 3, C its irrelevant labeling.

In a vacuum you are absolutely correct.

But games aren't played in a vacuum.

Ice time matters. Situational deployment matters.

A player may have serious problems playing significantly less minutes per game or not being utilizing on the powerplay like they would on a less complete team.

 

[wintersej]

Nothing funnier than when players get pegged into a slot like its NHL 23 on Playstation.

"Horvat is not a 1C on a contender"

So if Horvat gets traded to Edmonton does that mean he is a 3C now?

If Hughes gets moved to Carolina, hes a 3rd pairing Dman now?

The whole point is to create the best team possible, which means its possible to have more than one 1C on a team or more than 1 top pairing Dman on the team.

Whats the point of labeling Horvat as a 1, 2, 3 C? what Horvat is , is a 30-40 goal scorer, 60-70 point Centre that will also be elite on the faceoffs and has shown to be dominant in every level of hockey when the playoffs start coming around.

-OHL playoff MVP
- Led the NHL in goals in the playoffs at the time Vegas eliminated the Canucks in 7 games a couple of seasons ago.

He turns it up for sure and a beast you want in a 7 game series.

Whether thats a 1, 2, 3, C its irrelevant labeling.

It's not labeling if you are trying to create a smart cap structure, which I know Vancouver fans might not be familiar with. If you need two Horvats up the middle to be a contender, you better be able to afford it.

Calling Horvat a 30-40 goal scorer, 60-70 point center is so classic HFBoards.

 

[UrbanImpact]

I think he goes to Colorado, Seattle or a non-contending team, extension added.

If he goes to Colorado i predict a SCF final sweep of Boston.

Much like Boston though, I think a return on a trade from Colorado might be underwhelming. Newhook + is just meh.

 

[DFC]

I've heard Horvat to Tampa but can someone even mention what a trade would look like? Tampa has nothing to offer at all

I dont see how it happens without somebody like Cirelli or Paul. So I dont see how it happens.

 

[Canuck86]

Does Carlo not have a history of concussions, more concussions than Byram I believe?? Carlo has had 5 concussions I believe...that is a bit scary as one bad hit and his career could be done ala Ferland, which would just be Canuck luck they trade for a guy wmo might be 1 hit away from retirement as the main piece back in a Horvat deal.

 

[EP to Kuzmenko]

Does Carlo not have a history of concussions, more concussions than Byram I believe?? Carlo has had 5 concussions I believe...that is a bit scary as one bad hit and his career could be done ala Ferland, which would just be Canuck luck they trade for a guy wmo might be 1 hit away from retirement as the main piece back in a Horvat deal.

Didn't realize it was that many concussions

 

[CheerstoBeers]

Horvat is not a 1c on a contender.

If he was the selke caliber, rocket richard caliber 1c that Canuck fans are selling him as Vancouver would be comfortably in the playoffs with all their other offensive weapons and their coach wouldn't have been fired.

Your expectations for what you want from Horvat may be a little much. If Horvat is the difference maker between in the playoffs and not having a coach fired then the Nucks are laying a little too much responsibility on Horvat. He's got 49 points in 46 games, a few 50 and 60 point seasons and two straight 30 goal seasons and counting this year. . Bruins for example are a win by committee team so if Horvat can produce exactly as his history says, he will make a perfect fit on a team that doesn't need him to be a standout or someone they completely depend on to get them in the playoffs

 

[David71]

where does he land up.. so many teams.. boston/colorado/seattle etc..

 

[oceanchild]

Your expectations for what you want from Horvat may be a little much. If Horvat is the difference maker between in the playoffs and not having a coach fired then the Nucks are laying a little too much responsibility on Horvat. He's got 49 points in 46 games, a few 50 and 60 point seasons and two straight 30 goal seasons and counting this year. . Bruins for example are a win by committee team so if Horvat can produce exactly as his history says, he will make a perfect fit on a team that doesn't need him to be a standout or someone they completely depend on to get them in the playoffs

McDavid is easily the best player in the nhl, and the oilers are barely in. Horvat like McDavid can’t also be on the ice as a defensemen at the same time.

 

[WhalerTurnedBruin55]

Does Carlo not have a history of concussions, more concussions than Byram I believe?? Carlo has had 5 concussions I believe...that is a bit scary as one bad hit and his career could be done ala Ferland, which would just be Canuck luck they trade for a guy wmo might be 1 hit away from retirement as the main piece back in a Horvat deal.

He does.

It is worrisome long term, but he's also bounced back well this year. Would not blame you if he's not the target, but a healthy Carlo is a great addition to any D core. The risk is real, and honestly could go either way. Bergeron also had a huge concussion and was questionable to ever return, and he came back stronger than ever. That's likely the exception, not the rule though.

That said, almost close to zero chance Bruins move Carlo during the season. Carlo is a core member on and off the ice.

That said in a vacuum Carlo would be a good fit with Hughes, but don't think Carlo is on the block for a number of reasons, even with the risk.

 

[kcunac]

One thing to remember about Horvat is, that in addition to being UFA, this is the fist year that he has had good line-mates. Before this the best he ever had was Pearson and Baerstchi. So while he may not be a 50 goal scorer as he is currently on pace, he could easily be a 35 to 40 goal scorer if he plays with good wingers and is on a good PP (like now). His shots and shooting % have been on an upward trend for years, even though the current 22% is unsustainable. He has worked at and improved his shot pretty consistently and his defense is the best its been; though still only ok defensively he has always gotten the tough minutes and matchups. And he has always been great at FO's.

So in sum, yes this year is an outlier, but the trend is positive and the regression may not be that significant as some make out. He could easily be a 40 goal 70 pts centre for the next few years, but agree he has not been one before this season. He also plays great in the playoffs and has a tendency to score big goals. He shows up when it matters, which is why he is the captain.

 

[604]

Bruins firsts are like 2nd round picks, I wouldn't do that

I'd do it (as a Canucks fan).

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

He does.

It is worrisome long term, but he's also bounced back well this year. Would not blame you if he's not the target, but a healthy Carlo is a great addition to any D core. The risk is real, and honestly could go either way. Bergeron also had a huge concussion and was questionable to ever return, and he came back stronger than ever. That's likely the exception, not the rule though.

That said, almost close to zero chance Bruins move Carlo during the season. Carlo is a core member on and off the ice.

That said in a vacuum Carlo would be a good fit with Hughes, but don't think Carlo is on the block for a number of reasons, even with the risk.

Was thinking the same thing, Carlo ain't being traded for a rental even one as good as Horvat.

Bruins firsts are like 2nd round picks, I wouldn't do that

If we trade Horvat and get a pick or picks in general back that's likely where they are, we aren't going to get any high 1sts even if he's re-signed, not in this draft especially.

People really need to realize this, we aren't getting anywhere near the return some think on here, not multiple 1st's and not a blue chipper.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

One thing to remember about Horvat is, that in addition to being UFA, this is the fist year that he has had good line-mates. Before this the best he ever had was Pearson and Baerstchi. So while he may not be a 50 goal scorer as he is currently on pace, he could easily be a 35 to 40 goal scorer if he plays with good wingers and is on a good PP (like now). His shots and shooting % have been on an upward trend for years, even though the current 22% is unsustainable. He has worked at and improved his shot pretty consistently and his defense is the best its been; though still only ok defensively he has always gotten the tough minutes and matchups. And he has always been great at FO's.

So in sum, yes this year is an outlier, but the trend is positive and the regression may not be that significant as some make out. He could easily be a 40 goal 70 pts centre for the next few years, but agree he has not been one before this season. He also plays great in the playoffs and has a tendency to score big goals. He shows up when it matters, which is why he is the captain.

Agree with all of this, to call Horvat a 30 goal 60 point player is accurate, conversely calling him a 40 goal 70+ point player is disingenuous.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Agree with all of this, to call Horvat a 30 goal 60 point player is accurate, conversely calling him a 40 goal 70+ point player is disingenuous.

Yes and no.

The thing is, he's been working with Adam Oates who helped him change a bunch of things including the flex (and possibly curve of his stick). His shot is entirely different. He's beating goalies with a quick release snapshot that he never had before. So it's definitely possible that he is more 35-45 than he is 25-35, even in a non-outlier year.

 

[Nucklehead Supreme]

Yes and no.

The thing is, he's been working with Adam Oates who helped him change a bunch of things including the flex (and possibly curve of his stick). His shot is entirely different. He's beating goalies with a quick release snapshot that he never had before. So it's definitely possible that he is more 35-45 than he is 25-35, even in a non-outlier year.

Oh I get that, I feel like even so he's a 30 goal player, maybe 30-35, at least at this stage.

 

[quietbruinfan]

Bruins firsts are like 2nd round picks, I wouldn't do that.

From what I can tell, D

He would be a perfect partner for Hughes (as he was for Krug), but I fail to see why Boston would move him in season. Horvat fills a long term need, but is an awkward fit on the current Bruins roster. Worse, the Bruins would have created a big exposable hole on the teams D group. Just doesn't make sense.

Dhal is their Jimmy Murphy from what I can tell. I would not put much stock in it.

 

[kcunac]

I dont think Carolina is a serious contender for Horvat.

I feel like Carolina is the Oakland A's of Hockey. At times I feel they'd rather be the smartest front office team in hockey than do big major things, all in things to actually try and win it all.

They have internal rules like, dont spend on rentals, dont pay Dmen, etc....

I dont think Carolina is a serious contender for Horvat.

I feel like Carolina is the Oakland A's of Hockey. At times I feel they'd rather be the smartest front office team in hockey than do big major things, all in things to actually try and win it all.

They have internal rules like, dont spend on rentals, dont pay Dmen, etc....

Agree except they did offer-sheet KK and then signed him to a ridiculous extension so anything is possible

 

[kcunac]

Boston’s interest would clearly be more about next year and beyond which is why it would be strange to see them give up a top 4 RHD in Carlo when they are contending. A package around Lysell + 1st would make more sense but would it be enough?

A package of futures (Morrow/Nikishin + 1st) and possibly facilitated by the dumping of KK makes sense, except the Canes have not done a deal like this in the past. The Canucks would be foolish not to pursue defensive prospects of this calibre and KK fits their ill-guided plan to procure young NHL ready talent.

Colorado also makes lots of sense, but whether they have or want to trade the assets that others will is an open q. Maybe Newhook + 1st gets it done, maybe not. Not sure what else they could realistically add other than a 3rd. This package might be acceptable but it is a bit disappointing, depending on how you feel about Newhook. Perhaps a fall back plan.

Then there are other lees expected teams like Detroit that make a lot of sense for multiple reasons but I can’t see Yzerman giving up the assets without a strong indication an extension is possible, which is not currently being allowed by Van. A package of Rasmussen, Wallinder, 1st with the potential for more would be easily affordable by Detroit and likely of interest to Van as well. The question is would the higher 1st be enough to justify the drop off between Wallinder and Morrow/Nikishin or (debatedly) Rasmussen vs. KK.

Obviously as a Nucks fan I want the most I can get, but any of the above can likely be stockade by other teams and would be acceptable in a vacuum.

TLDR:

1st, Lysell (+}
1st, Morrow/Nikishin (+ maybe KK)
1st, Newhook (+)
1st, Rasmussen, Wallinder (+)

I’d say the Canes deal is best, with Detroit a close second

 

[Stickpucker]

Your expectations for what you want from Horvat may be a little much. If Horvat is the difference maker between in the playoffs and not having a coach fired then the Nucks are laying a little too much responsibility on Horvat. He's got 49 points in 46 games, a few 50 and 60 point seasons and two straight 30 goal seasons and counting this year. . Bruins for example are a win by committee team so if Horvat can produce exactly as his history says, he will make a perfect fit on a team that doesn't need him to be a standout or someone they completely depend on to get them in the playoffs

If he can't help a team get over the hump to get in the playoffs where half the teams in the league make it how can he help a playoff team beat the best of the best to win the cup?

"a perfect fit on a team that doesn't need him to be a standout" --well if the team doesn't need him to be a standout why would they pay 3 1sts or blue chip prospects ++ to get him?