Movies: Hollywood sexual harassment ( Russell Brand facing multiple allegations)

[izzy]

Very Weinstein'ish the way so many media outlets are coming after Aziz's accuser.

explain what happened that aziz should have his career ruined. needs to be addressed or more stuff like this is going to happen

 

[Teemu]

The Ansari situation has "botched extortion attempt" written all over it.

 

[Pilky01]

explain what happened that aziz should have his career ruined. needs to be addressed or more stuff like this is going to happen

I dont think Aziz or anybody else should have their career ruined over accusations of sexual impropriety. Thats kinda what myself and many other people have been arguing for months now.

I am noting how the conversation has suddenly become much more nuanced than it was just a week ago because woke golden boy of the current year is the target this time.

Ben Affleck was raked over the f***ing coals for this for f***'s sake

 

[Deficient Mode]

I dont think Aziz or anybody else should have their career ruined over accusations of sexual impropriety. Thats kinda what myself and many other people have been arguing for months now.

I am noting how the conversation has suddenly become much more nuanced than it was just a week ago because woke golden boy of the current year is the target this time.

It's more nuanced because the problem with what he allegedly did is more nuanced, not because of who he is. I think most people know that woke men are often perpetrators of sexual misconduct too. Aziz isn't going to have his career ruined and few are calling for that. The likes of Weinstein, Singer, and Toback have to go though. If you think otherwise, lol.

 

[Ensane]

I dont think Aziz or anybody else should have their career ruined over accusations of sexual impropriety. Thats kinda what myself and many other people have been arguing for months now.

I am noting how the conversation has suddenly become much more nuanced than it was just a week ago because woke golden boy of the current year is the target this time.

You're making no sense. This has nothing to do with Ansari being the target and everything to do with the fact that the accuser was at best reckless and frivolous with her claims and at worst is committing extortion.

 

[Mach85]

What Affleck did is much worse than what Ansari did IMO. Affleck groping a woman during a professional appearance without her consent is sexual assault. Aziz is guilty of being a sleazeball, and while there were likely some mixed signals going on in the beginning that makes the "men are bad at reading signals" thing passable (it's likely she was down for SOME sexual contact but changed her mind when she wasn't feeling his tactics, which she has every right to do), he absolutely should have stopped when she said verbally it wasn't happening that night.

However, this is the key here, what Aziz did isn't illegal and it didn't happen in a professional environment where there's any kind of coercion due to a power differential. Therefore, guilty of being scummy, sure. Deserving of being lumped in with Weinstein or Spacey? Not on any planet. He's not even in the league of some of the "lesser" (for lack of a better word, I don't want to minimize) perps in the #metoo movement. This is something that could have and should have been settled privately, not something that needed to be brought to the current supercharged climate.

 

[Pilky01]

This is something that could have and should have been settled privately, not something that needed to be brought to the current supercharged climate.

So this woman doesn't get any credit for being a "Silence Breaker"?

If you think that video of Afleck shows someone being sexually assaulted then I don't know if I can even have a rational conversation with you.

 

[Mach85]

So this woman doesn't get any credit for being a "Silence Breaker"?

If you think that video of Afleck shows someone being sexually assaulted then I don't know if I can even have a rational conversation with you.

If you think a video where Affleck's body obscures what he's doing with his hands then you're probably right, we can't have a rational conversation. Do you really think he was just putting his arm around her? Her reaction to it suggests otherwise, not to mention the accounts of others who were present, and Affleck's apology after this was brought up.

As for being a "silence breaker," I don't think someone being a sleazeball on a date is national news. If an assault had taken place, then sure.

 

[coupe89]

Whose saying that? Most recent accusation from a mainstream news site is 4-5 days ago. The most recent news is Ashley Judd (whose been at the forefront of the Weinstein allegations) defending and praising Franco.

James Franco on denial tour in wake of allegations - CNN

 

[Bjorn Le]

James Franco on denial tour in wake of allegations - CNN

I don't see anything that suggests there is a pattern of him going after 17 year olds, not that that's a crime anyway. Age of consent in most states in 16 or less.

You'll also notice Franco's projects are not being cancelled like they were for people like Spacey or Weinstein. It means that important people in the industry (the media, studios, high profile actors and actresses with influence) aren't taking the allegations seriously. Hollywood puts a façade that they care about progressive issues but they really only care about their survival. If they don't think Franco is going to sink, he's not going to.

 

[Tawnos]

its definitely at the point where guys being *******s is being grouped into sexual harrasment

the aziz thing is basically him being bad at reading body language and being a jerk. but when she said no, it was over and he offered to call her a car. its getting ridiculous

Or maybe the woman was bad at showing him how she was feeling through body language.

I’m not one to foist the blame on women for things men do. It’s just not really clear to me in this case that the guy did anything.

And the fact that Ansari was surprised to hear about how she felt about it the next day brings up a problem I have. This movement fundamentally assumes that women’s memory of events is infallible. I completely distrust that idea.

That being said, if some men are unfortunate victims in a rebalancing of the power politics of sex, so be it. It’s the road to a more just world overall.

 

[stan the caddy]

A rich celebrity went on a date with a girl in her early 20s. Took her out for oysters and then back to his apartment to have sex and that's when she realized he didn't want to marry her...

 

[Bjorn Le]

The biggest problem I have with this “revolution” is the attack, and arguably bullying of anyone who critiques the movement (no matter if they are completely in support of women coming out and reporting their experiences). If you bring up the word “due process”, you’re attacked as a misogynist, who doesn’t understand the pain of women. Margaret Atwood is one of the most recent victims of this (for saying #MeToo is addressing the symptoms and not the cause of the problem, which is 100% right).

I’m not sure how bullying and personal attacks is going to change anything. The apathy and skepticism towards recent high profile accusations is likely partially influenced by fatigue. Regular people will only take so much. It’s easy to side with the underdog when it’s big name studio execs and A-listers being the bullies, but when it’s legions of people on Twitter? I worry progress is about to be pushed a few steps back.

 

[member 51464]

The Aziz story again for ease of reference: I went on a date with Aziz Ansari. It turned into the worst night of my life

I find it odd.
My reading is she seemed to consent to and/or Aziz seemed to have no reason to think she did not consent to:
Kissing - I won't bother quoting since it was throughout
Getting naked

Then he was undressing her, then he undressed himself. She remembers feeling uncomfortable at how quickly things escalated.

She is reflecting after that she felt uncomfortable then, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to think how the night ended colored her reflections. She felt something but here does not even claim she verbalized or gave a non-verbal hint as to not wanting to get naked. Considering what happens next, it seems to me the getting naked was consented to.

Receiving oral sex
Giving oral sex (twice)

When Ansari told her he was going to grab a condom within minutes of their first kiss, Grace voiced her hesitation explicitly. “I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did, but not for long. “It was really quick. Everything was pretty much touched and done within ten minutes of hooking up, except for actual sex.”

Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”

What she did not seem to consent to:
"the claw" move
moving her hand to his penis - though the penis ended up in her mouth twice, so I could see how Aziz might have thought touching with the hand was no biggie after/during that?

Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”
But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a f***ing game.”
Throughout the course of her short time in the apartment, she says she used verbal and non-verbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was. “Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points,” she said. “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”
Whether Ansari didn’t notice Grace’s reticence or knowingly ignored it is impossible for her to say. “I know I was physically giving off cues that I wasn’t interested. I don’t think that was noticed at all, or if it was, it was ignored.”

No excuse for the fingers in the throat and trying to finger her part. But paragraphs three and four in this set of quotes combined with all the rest of the consensual and two-way oral sex, kissing, nudity, etc...tells me she, at best, was sending very mixed signals. Bottom line: She did not want sex. She said no and he accepted this. She decided to leave. He called her a car. The end.

 

[Pilky01]

It seems really f***ing weird to me to ask for a bl**j**; particularly on a first date.

I have never asked a woman to give me a bl**j** in my life. All the women I have been with simply start doing it when they feel comfortable.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Met police here in the UK have launched two more investigation into Kevin Spacey

 

[Bjorn Le]

It seems really ****ing weird to me to ask for a *******; particularly on a first date.

I have never asked a woman to give me a ******* in my life. All the women I have been with simply start doing it when they feel comfortable.

Eh, I've never either but I don't think it's that weird. Especially in modern hookup culture where two individuals who go on a date is often considered the warmup to what they actually planned on doing that night. It's poor communication (though I doubt the woman was looking for a long-term relationship with Ansari) but it's hardly sexual assault. I think it's sleazy on Ansari's part but it's a serious stretch to call it sexual misconduct.

 

[coupe89]

I don't see anything that suggests there is a pattern of him going after 17 year olds, not that that's a crime anyway. Age of consent in most states in 16 or less.

You'll also notice Franco's projects are not being cancelled like they were for people like Spacey or Weinstein. It means that important people in the industry (the media, studios, high profile actors and actresses with influence) aren't taking the allegations seriously. Hollywood puts a façade that they care about progressive issues but they really only care about their survival. If they don't think Franco is going to sink, he's not going to.

Seems to me if he admitted to trying with one 17 year old and then asked another to come to his hotel that he likes girls under 18.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Seems to me if he admitted to trying with one 17 year old and then asked another to come to his hotel that he likes girls under 18.

You’re jumping to a lot of conclusions.

 

[Pilky01]

Eh, I've never either but I don't think it's that weird. Especially in modern hookup culture where two individuals who go on a date is often considered the warmup to what they actually planned on doing that night. It's poor communication (though I doubt the woman was looking for a long-term relationship with Ansari) but it's hardly sexual assault. I think it's sleazy on Ansari's part but it's a serious stretch to call it sexual misconduct.

I absolutely don't think it's sexual misconduct, but if all this MeToo stuff is about starting a conversation about this sort of thing, then I think it's a valid part of the discussion.

Call me old fashioned but im not even really considering a BJ until weve at least been in the same room as my/her bed.

And I'm pretty sure I'm younger than Ansari so I don't really buy the "modern culture" argument. I think it's a lot more indicative of how Hollywood men with an adoring audience view intimacy as just a service women who have the privilege of dating them ought to provide.

 

[Mach85]

I absolutely don't think it's sexual misconduct, but if all this MeToo stuff is about starting a conversation about this sort of thing, then I think it's a valid part of the discussion.

Call me old fashioned but im not even really considering a BJ until weve at least been in the same room as my/her bed.

And I'm pretty sure I'm younger than Ansari so I don't really buy the "modern culture" argument. I think it's a lot more indicative of how Hollywood men with an adoring audience view intimacy as just a service women who have the privilege of dating them ought to provide.

I agree with you that it's a discussion worth having, as well as that it's not sexual misconduct. Men can learn from this that if you have to pull a woman's hand toward your dick 5+ times...that probably means she's not into it, or you should clarify that everything's cool.

 

[Bjorn Le]

I absolutely don't think it's sexual misconduct, but if all this MeToo stuff is about starting a conversation about this sort of thing, then I think it's a valid part of the discussion.

Call me old fashioned but im not even really considering a BJ until weve at least been in the same room as my/her bed.

And I'm pretty sure I'm younger than Ansari so I don't really buy the "modern culture" argument. I think it's a lot more indicative of how Hollywood men with an adoring audience view intimacy as just a service women who have the privilege of dating them ought to provide.

It’s not just Hollywood men. This is something that exists pretty much everywhere in the West. Which is a huge issue with MeToo because they’re doing nothing to promote sexual violence/harassment awareness for normal people. It’s an issue everywhere. It’s an issue in the corporate world, an issue in universities, in high schools, literally anywhere. What does MeToo do for them? Killing the career of some A lister isn’t going to make that frat boy or executive change their behaviour.

 

[Mach85]

It’s not just Hollywood men. This is something that exists pretty much everywhere in the West. Which is a huge issue with MeToo because they’re doing nothing to promote sexual violence/harassment awareness for normal people. It’s an issue everywhere. It’s an issue in the corporate world, an issue in universities, in high schools, literally anywhere. What does MeToo do for them? Killing the career of some A lister isn’t going to make that frat boy or executive change their behaviour.

Hopefully it will lead to some discussions and cause men everywhere to reflect on their own behaviour/experiences, even if we end up concluding that we're acting appropriately and morally. Also, just by the salience of the issue in society's collective consciousness, perhaps that will act as an inhibitor in some cases for some individuals who otherwise wouldn't think twice because they think there will be no repercussions (even that frat boy, who thinks it's just the way things are and there's no way anyone will care). Although I'm sure you're right that there are some people who just won't see the error of their ways no matter how much discussion of celebrity harassment takes place. But I think some good for the general populace can come out of this.

 

[Pilky01]

I think part of my issue with the Ansari thing is I can 100% imagine Ansari, in his Master of None character (which is basically him playing himself, no?), whining over and over begging for a bl**j**.

More obnoxious than inappropriate maybe.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Hopefully it will lead to some discussions and cause men everywhere to reflect on their own behaviour/experiences, even if we end up concluding that we're acting appropriately and morally. Also, just by the salience of the issue in society's collective consciousness, perhaps that will act as an inhibitor in some cases for some individuals who otherwise wouldn't think twice because they think there will be no repercussions (even that frat boy, who thinks it's just the way things are and there's no way anyone will care). Although I'm sure you're right that there are some people who just won't see the error of their ways no matter how much discussion of celebrity harassment takes place. But I think some good for the general populace can come out of this.

I'm just really cynical about this sort of thing. Hollywood's crusade against racism a few years ago hasn't really changed anything substantive in the entertainment industry, let alone in the greater world. Right now, we are seeing only film and movie stars be affected. Even Roy Moore only was affected because the victim was a child. It's easy for the court of public opinion to demolish movie stars, it's very hard for them to do the same for anyone else not so visible. I think some good could come out of this, but I think there has to be a fundamental change in how their organizing this campaign.