Speculation: Holland & Columbus. Columbus & Holland. In it together. How? Why?

[Jive Pawnbroker]

I voted potato. Can't squeeze potatoes very easily.

Well, Brian Stelter was looking for work the last I heard.

 

[Pavel10]

Lol, I loved seeing that video…he literally twists the paper and can almost see the steam coming out of his ears. I cannot find it now anywhere, I’ve looked and looked but YT was probably ordered it to take it down.

Oh man it was great I remember the pain you could sense in his micro expressions

 

[bucks_oil]

He is still a POS if he is interviewing with his team underachieving in the playoffs.

And if he did accept a meeting with Davidson in person in Edmonton, he should be shown the door now.

I truly believe he knew he was out before the deadline then didn't give a shit or work hard enough or was too bitter to care enough about upgrading the roster.

Lol...

Sorry but this is very funny.

You realize these are mature grown ups we're talking about here right? And Jackson was brought in as POHO 10 months ago... with Holland on an expiring contract. You think it is a surprise to anyone that he might be interviewing for his next job? Somehow the topic of a renewal just didn't come up?

What world do you live in?

 

[Arpeggio]

Lol...

Sorry but this is very funny.

You realize these are mature grown ups we're talking about here right? And Jackson was brought in as POHO 10 months ago... with Holland on an expiring contract. You think it is a surprise to anyone that he might be interviewing for his next job? Somehow the topic of a renewal just didn't come up?

What world do you live in?

I actually am surprised he's interviewing for another job, because I was 100% sure that he was retiring. I'd be curious if there's been another case where a GM has had as much success as Holland has (two conference finals, 5 series wins in three years) and an extension was seemingly never even considered.

Honestly, this is the most fun I've had as an Oil fan since I was learning long division, so while I'm not sad to see Holland go, I don't really have any hate for the guy.

 

[bucks_oil]

To be fair, Holland took over a non-playoff team with the following roster

Forwards: McD, Drai, Nudge + Lucic, Kassian, Chiason, Khaira, Cagiulla, Ty Rattie, Pulju, Rieder, Brodziak

D: Nurse, Klefboom, Larsson, Benning, Russel, Caleb Jones

G: Talbot+Koskinen


Moreover, he lost our only true top 2 D-man in Klefboom for no fault, and Larsson left not to have to deal with our fans.

Our fans simply do not remember how terrible our depth was, Rattie played for a while on the top line, and 3 of Lucic, Kassian, Chiason, Cagiulla and Rattie were in our top 6... Just think about that.

He somehow managed to get rid of the Lucic contract, and then added Hyman, Kane, Ekholm without subtracting anything of value (not that we had anything).... And he was patient with the young guys, not rushed them as we did in the past.

The Campbell trade and the Nurse contract were his big blunders, but with Nurse you have to ask yourself: would we be better without him and extra $$$$?

We can blame him for not getting a better goalie, and yes, he should had tried harder.... But true #1 are almost impossible to acquire.

IMO, KH was not as bad as our fans think. He was not excelent, but he was passable to good.

Thanks for posting this... I was about to do the same. He was slower than we'd have liked, but he was starting with two feet in a hole.

 

[nturn06]

This narrative is so very incorrect. Holland didn’t take a non-playoff team and make them a playoff team- McDavid and Draisaitl went from scoring 100 points to being 120-150 point players. Draisaitl is a threat to score 50 every year and they have had the best PP over the past 5 years. That PP is coached by Gulutzan…a Chiarelli hire.

The bottom 6 in the last year of Chiarelli had a higher GF% than anything Holland put together outside of 2 seasons. Hyman was a Brad Holland add. Brad, a heavy user of analytics- tracked his underlying metrics and knew he was going to pop.

Kane- what a gross mismanagement of cap by Holland. San Jose was penalized for terminating Kane’s contract and had to make up for the shortfall in money to whoever offered Kane a contract. Oilers could have offered him 1M and San Jose had to make up the rest. Holland needed to be nice though. Horrendous move.

Chicago needed to dump Keith to sign Jones. Holland not only took on that bad contract- but gave up assets to do it. To add insult to injury- Jones was signed for 9.25M- which Holland decided was the market and gave Nurse that money too. To triple down- when Keith retired- he did t go after the league for the recapture penalty. Imagine that happening to Vegas.

He decided, and publicly said- you don’t go all in every year…in McDavid’s prime. By his own admission- he wanted to re-sign Tippett and let Woodcroft walk.

All in all, he has left the prospect pool bear, we have dead cap space and will be adding to it, he has signed bad contracts that are unmoveable. The coaching staff in place has no body that he brought on, the core of the team was drafted by Chiarelli. This Franchise has been set back by Holland. The next GM has a ton of work to do

I'll answer to the points 1 by 1, again it is amazing too see how fast people forget the amazing job by Chiarelli. He was play terrible:

1) Holland took over a team who missed the playoffs 2 straight seasons, and was not even close (78 and 79 points in 82 games!). You can try to change the narative as much as you want, but under Chiarelli the team, with the same PP, missed the playoffs twice in a row. That's not an accident.

2)The bottom 6 had better numbers under Chiarelli simple because half of them were playing in top 6.

3) Had the Oilers offered Kane 1 mil, he would had signed with a different team. At the end of the day, Oilers added a player who was impactfull that postseason for something they could afford. Would the Oilers had been better without Kane? They would probably not pass LA without him that season.

4) Ignoring the salary, Keith was a good addition. He was good in the playoffs, but most importantly
he helped mentor Bouchard.

At the end of the day, you may be upset with the Kane signing, the Keith trade and the Nurse salary. But no matter how you look at it, that cannot come anywhere close to trading Hall+Eberle+ a pick which we would had used for Barzal/Chabott for Larson and Spooner. Signing Lucic was an even worse disaster than the Nurse signing. The fact that Chiarelli drafted McDavid doesn't change how bad he was....

 

[foshizzle]

I'll answer to the points 1 by 1, again it is amazing too see how fast people forget the amazing job by Chiarelli. He was play terrible:

1) Holland took over a team who missed the playoffs 2 straight seasons, and was not even close (78 and 79 points in 82 games!). You can try to change the narative as much as you want, but under Chiarelli the team, with the same PP, missed the playoffs twice in a row. That's not an accident.

2)The bottom 6 had better numbers under Chiarelli simple because half of them were playing in top 6.

3) Had the Oilers offered Kane 1 mil, he would had signed with a different team. At the end of the day, Oilers added a player who was impactfull that postseason for something they could afford. Would the Oilers had been better without Kane? They would probably not pass LA without him that season.

4) Ignoring the salary, Keith was a good addition. He was good in the playoffs, but most importantly
he helped mentor Bouchard.

At the end of the day, you may be upset with the Kane signing, the Keith trade and the Nurse salary. But no matter how you look at it, that cannot come anywhere close to trading Hall+Eberle+ a pick which we would had used for Barzal/Chabott for Larson and Spooner. Signing Lucic was an even worse disaster than the Nurse signing. The fact that Chiarelli drafted McDavid doesn't change how bad he was....

Hahaha, no.

1) Holland inherited a team with two generational players entering their prime. Are you telling me that if Draisaitl and Mcdavid were scoring 70-100 points less combined Oilers make the playoffs? No- it wasn't the same PP. That unit was put together by Tippett with a more experienced 97/29. Chiarelli was horrible- but giving Holland credit for what McDavid and Draisaitl did is just wrong

2) No- the bottom 6 under Holland were dead last in the league for 2 of the 5 years under Holland. And no, bottom 6 didn't play top 6 under Chiarelli or they would be measured as top 6.


3) Completely false- Kane wouldn't have signed with another team. As posted by all the insiders- teams were waiting for the outcome of the league's decision on Kane. Kane even wrote a "Goodbye Edmonton" message on his IG. No one offered him a contract. Kane was getting his 7M regardless of what the Oiler paid him because San Jose had to make sure he was whole. Holland royally F'd that up.

4) Keith wasnt a good edition, and no, he didn't help Bouchard. Keith was getting destroyed in Chicago when he left, and he got destroyed when he was here. Hell, even he knew it was time to hang them up. He couldn't keep up and was getting turnstiled regularly. Don't believe me? Look up his metrics. He was cap dump by Chicago.

So you're bar of how well Holland did was comparing him Chiarelli? Aim higher. He had 2 generational players in their prime +30M in cap space going into his 3rd year. He also got lucky and had Keith retire before the end of his contract. The bar shouldn't be making the playoffs. The bar should be championships. From this debate- I can see your idea of success is a middling team.

 

[Heavy Dee]

Lol...

Sorry but this is very funny.

You realize these are mature grown ups we're talking about here right? And Jackson was brought in as POHO 10 months ago... with Holland on an expiring contract. You think it is a surprise to anyone that he might be interviewing for his next job? Somehow the topic of a renewal just didn't come up?

What world do you live in?

Or, you know the ethical thing might be for him to say to Davidson, ' hey Iam interested, but let's wait to talk' Let alone allowing him to fly into Edmonton to meet personally.

Have you ever heard of optics? Apparently not.

 

[nturn06]

Hahaha, no.

1) Holland inherited a team with two generational players entering their prime. Are you telling me that if Draisaitl and Mcdavid were scoring 70-100 points less combined Oilers make the playoffs? No- it wasn't the same PP. That unit was put together by Tippett with a more experienced 97/29. Chiarelli was horrible- but giving Holland credit for what McDavid and Draisaitl did is just wrong

2) No- the bottom 6 under Holland were dead last in the league for 2 of the 5 years under Holland. And no, bottom 6 didn't play top 6 under Chiarelli or they would be measured as top 6.


3) Completely false- Kane wouldn't have signed with another team. As posted by all the insiders- teams were waiting for the outcome of the league's decision on Kane. Kane even wrote a "Goodbye Edmonton" message on his IG. No one offered him a contract. Kane was getting his 7M regardless of what the Oiler paid him because San Jose had to make sure he was whole. Holland royally F'd that up.

4) Keith wasnt a good edition, and no, he didn't help Bouchard. Keith was getting destroyed in Chicago when he left, and he got destroyed when he was here. Hell, even he knew it was time to hang them up. He couldn't keep up and was getting turnstiled regularly. Don't believe me? Look up his metrics. He was cap dump by Chicago.

So you're bar of how well Holland did was comparing him Chiarelli? Aim higher. He had 2 generational players in their prime +30M in cap space going into his 3rd year. He also got lucky and had Keith retire before the end of his contract. The bar shouldn't be making the playoffs. The bar should be championships. From this debate- I can see your idea of success is a middling team.

I don't get what you are saying. McDavid had 116 points in 78 games under Chiarelli, and Draisaitl had 50G and 105 points the same season.

Yet, the Oilers didn't even get to the 80 points mark.

Are you saying that Holland was lucky that these two players suddenly improved by a mile? McDavid basically improved his output by about 2.5 points per season, is that the difference between missing the playoffs by a mile and making it?

Keep explaining to us how amazing was Chiarelli to miss the playoffs with McDavid scoring 116 points, and Draisaitl having a 50G+55A=105P season.... I have a very hard time understanding the excuse you find hi, it makes completely no sense.

No matter what you try to say, we had team with McD and Draisaitl producing already at an awesome rate, and missing the playoffs by a mile (17 points!! in one of the seasons) twice in a row... You can sell me as much as you want that that was a playoffs team, I won't buy it.

 

[foshizzle]

I don't get what you are saying. McDavid had 116 points in 78 games under Chiarelli, and Draisaitl had 50G and 105 points the same season.

Yet, the Oilers didn't even get to the 80 points mark.

Are you saying that Holland was lucky that these two players suddenly improved by a mile? McDavid basically improved his output by about 2.5 points per season, is that the difference between missing the playoffs by a mile and making it?

Keep explaining to us how amazing was Chiarelli to miss the playoffs with McDavid scoring 116 points, and Draisaitl having a 50G+55A=105P season.... I have a very hard time understanding the excuse you find hi, it makes completely no sense.

No matter what you try to say, we had team with McD and Draisaitl producing already at an awesome rate, and missing the playoffs by a mile (17 points!! in one of the seasons) twice in a row... You can sell me as much as you want that that was a playoffs team, I won't buy it.

Strawman argument- I never said Chiarelli was awesome. He was garbage. You are comparing Holland to garbage and saying he he is better than garbage.

Draisaitl didn’t get to 105 points until 2018-19. So one year. That wasn’t his average. McDavid the same thing. I love how you say “they increased points by 2.5” without looking at points per game.

You again, are discounting goals per game scored by a record setting powerplay, by a coach hired by Chiarelli. This team sucked 5v5 for 3 out of 5 years. Was okay 1 out of 5 years- and was good one out of 5 years.

Like I said- Chiarelli was garbage. Holland has been slightly better than garbage. The fact that the 2 best players to come along in 30 years have not won a championship- hell have only been past the second round twice and have won 0 games in the third round is an atrocity. Like I said- you standards are too low

 

[nturn06]

Strawman argument- I never said Chiarelli was awesome. He was garbage. You are comparing Holland to garbage and saying he he is better than garbage.

Draisaitl didn’t get to 105 points until 2018-19. So one year. That wasn’t his average. McDavid the same thing. I love how you say “they increased points by 2.5” without looking at points per game.

You again, are discounting goals per game scored by a record setting powerplay, by a coach hired by Chiarelli. This team sucked 5v5 for 3 out of 5 years. Was okay 1 out of 5 years- and was good one out of 5 years.

Like I said- Chiarelli was garbage. Holland has been slightly better than garbage. The fact that the 2 best players to come along in 30 years have not won a championship- hell have only been past the second round twice and have won 0 games in the third round is an atrocity. Like I said- you standards are too low

While I don't think Holland was strong GM, IMO he was way better than "better than garbage".
He inherted a terrible team, whose second line may had been good enough to be a forth line.

Our fans probably expected him to

• Get 3 top 6 players
• Rebuild the bottom 6, which despite posting amazing numbers, ended up typically in Europe in 1-3 seasons
• Rebuild a Defence who lost the only 2 NHL calibre D-man (one being sick and the other run out of town by our fans)

And do this in less than a season.

I really cannot see how one can look at the team Holland took over, and think that it was anywhere close to playoffs team. Our 4th, 5th and 6th Forwards (basically the second line), combined for 84 points, from which 19 were McDavid bouncing the puck of Chiason on PP...

 

[foshizzle]

While I don't think Holland was strong GM, IMO he was way better than "better than garbage".
He inherted a terrible team, whose second line may had been good enough to be a forth line.

Our fans probably expected him to

• Get 3 top 6 players
• Rebuild the bottom 6, which despite posting amazing numbers, ended up typically in Europe in 1-3 seasons
• Rebuild a Defence who lost the only 2 NHL calibre D-man (one being sick and the other run out of town by our fans)

And do this in less than a season.

I really cannot see how one can look at the team Holland took over, and think that it was anywhere close to playoffs team. Our 4th, 5th and 6th Forwards (basically the second line), combined for 84 points, from which 19 were McDavid bouncing the puck of Chiason on PP...

He inherited a garbage team? He inherited McDavid and Draisaitl. The whole oilers core right now he inherited. He added Hyman- and that’s because Brad Holland literally put his job on the line to get his dad to sign him. He also add Ekholm- again- based on analytics Brad provided him. You used Chiasson as an example- guess who re-signed him to an inflated contract? Holland. Guess who re-signed Kassian for doing exactly you said Chiasson did. Then, he signed him to an inflated contract, protected him in the expansion draft, and had to trade an asset to get rid of that contract.

Yes- fans expected him to do all that you listed, except do that when he had 30M in cap space. Like I said- the bar wasn’t making the playoffs when you have 2 generational players.

Let’s take it a step further. Which prospects does he have on entry level contracts that you can insert into the line up with 97,29,2 contracts up the next few years? Where is the organizational depth? How about Nurse and Campbell’s contracts- how do we deal with those? He’s the one leaving the mess.

 

[nturn06]

He inherited a garbage team? He inherited McDavid and Draisaitl. The whole oilers core right now he inherited. He added Hyman- and that’s because Brad Holland literally put his job on the line to get his dad to sign him. He also add Ekholm- again- based on analytics Brad provided him. You used Chiasson as an example- guess who re-signed him to an inflated contract? Holland. Guess who re-signed Kassian for doing exactly you said Chiasson did. Then, he signed him to an inflated contract, protected him in the expansion draft, and had to trade an asset to get rid of that contract.

Yes- fans expected him to do all that you listed, except do that when he had 30M in cap space. Like I said- the bar wasn’t making the playoffs when you have 2 generational players.

Let’s take it a step further. Which prospects does he have on entry level contracts that you can insert into the line up with 97,29,2 contracts up the next few years? Where is the organizational depth? How about Nurse and Campbell’s contracts- how do we deal with those? He’s the one leaving the mess.

Yet somehow you don't see a problem with us missing the playoffs by a mile with the same two generational players.

If I recall right, when he took over, he had much much less than the 30 mils you claim.. The cap was about 80 mils and we had more than 70 mils tied up in contracts, including 21 mils tied up in Lucic, Koskinnen, Sekera, Russel and Brendon Manning! Where are the other 30 mils? Or was KH supposed to use in the first year the 30 mils of crap salaries he managed to clear few years later?

Last but not least, it is easy to argue that a GM is terrible if you are going to disregard each of his positive moves as being done by someone else... I start to think that KH's only job was to do the bad moves and bad moves only, everything else was on autopilot.

Answer me the following question: why did that team with 97,29 miss the playoffs by a mile? It had McD and Drai at the top of their game, according to you the bottom 6 was miles better than under KH, and yet we missed the playoffs twice in a row. And the team was regressing despite 29 and 97 getting better. I still don't understand why you keep insisting that it was a playoff team.

Again, I believe that KH could had done more, and he did some bad moves. But at the end of the day, he clearly improved this team a lot... He was patient with young guys (if I remember right couple years ago our fans wanted to run Bou out of town for not being able to defend). And no matter how you look at it, he took a team who was not closed to the playoffs (two straight years is not an accident), had no depth and a pretty thin prospect cubboard, and he turned it into a team who made the conference finals 2 times in 3 years...... But yea, I get it, none of the positive things were his move, it was Santa.

 

[bucks_oil]

Or, you know the ethical thing might be for him to say to Davidson, ' hey Iam interested, but let's wait to talk' Let alone allowing him to fly into Edmonton to meet personally.

Have you ever heard of optics? Apparently not.

Heavy Dee... you don't know what's happened or already transpired behind close doors.

You are assuming that Holland's employer doesn't already have FULL KNOWLEDGE that he is interviewing elsewhere - and then based on that assumption you are getting upset. Why would you even assume that?! - it isn't logical. Let's break it down:

• Holland is on an expiring contract
• Jackson has been on the job for 10 months
• During his presser both Holland AND Jackson were non-committal on his renewal
• It was widely and PUBLICLY discussed in the news that Edmonton would have a new GM this year (hence the Staios speculation which was reported prior to him signing on with Ottawa)
• Holland can read a newspaper
• Holland is aware his contract is expiring

And now 8 months later Holland is interviewing for a job. And you are pissed... why?

Do you honestly think Katz and Jackson haven't already had and concluded on the "are we renewing Holland" conversation?

Do you honestly think that Jackson and Holland haven't already had the "do you want to come back?" or "are you going to renew me?" conversation yet?

Do you think that's how businesses are run? That a senior level employee with an expiring contract (and in this case a future HOFer) are simply left dangling in the wind, waiting for the contract to expire, before negotiating the new one, or being told the org is moving on?

Optics? What optics? The whole world knew Holland would not be back. Most Oiler fans were happy about that. The only thing at all surprising here is that he's not retiring, he's considering new opportunities. So what?

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Bob Nicholson hired both Chiarelli and Holland.
In both cases, he abandoned a lengthy search and interview process:

Oilers CEO Bob Nicholson says hiring Peter Chiarelli as GM was 'a mistake' | Sporting News Canada

Nicholson says hiring Chiarelli as Oilers GM was 'a mistake'

www.sportingnews.com

We need strong manager with a strong vision for what this team should be.



With that, I highly endorse. "Potato".

 

[CornKicker]

holland to columbus is awesome for us, holland loves nurse, nurse for sillinger and severson (or even provorov)

 

[foshizzle]

Yet somehow you don't see a problem with us missing the playoffs by a mile with the same two generational players.

If I recall right, when he took over, he had much much less than the 30 mils you claim.. The cap was about 80 mils and we had more than 70 mils tied up in contracts, including 21 mils tied up in Lucic, Koskinnen, Sekera, Russel and Brendon Manning! Where are the other 30 mils? Or was KH supposed to use in the first year the 30 mils of crap salaries he managed to clear few years later?

Last but not least, it is easy to argue that a GM is terrible if you are going to disregard each of his positive moves as being done by someone else... I start to think that KH's only job was to do the bad moves and bad moves only, everything else was on autopilot.

Answer me the following question: why did that team with 97,29 miss the playoffs by a mile? It had McD and Drai at the top of their game, according to you the bottom 6 was miles better than under KH, and yet we missed the playoffs twice in a row. And the team was regressing despite 29 and 97 getting better. I still don't understand why you keep insisting that it was a playoff team.

Again, I believe that KH could had done more, and he did some bad moves. But at the end of the day, he clearly improved this team a lot... He was patient with young guys (if I remember right couple years ago our fans wanted to run Bou out of town for not being able to defend). And no matter how you look at it, he took a team who was not closed to the playoffs (two straight years is not an accident), had no depth and a pretty thin prospect cubboard, and he turned it into a team who made the conference finals 2 times in 3 years...... But yea, I get it, none of the positive things were his move, it was Santa.

I've explained it many times. you're failing to understand. He had 30M in cap space in year 3. Go ahead, google it.

Let's use your argument, what did Holland do to make it a playoff team? Also, do you honestly believe McDavid and Draisaitl would continue to miss the playoffs? I also told you that the historic powerplay and PK in the first year under Tippett is how they made the playoffs. They couldnt do jack shit 5 v 5 and lost to the blackhawks (non-playoff team) and got swept by the jets.

Also, are you drunk? Thin prospect cupboard? lol. I won't even argue that because it is such a stupid notion.

Who are the major driving players in getting them to the conference finals? McDavid, Draisaitl, Bouchard, RNH. He inherited those. Hyman was Brad Holland but I'll let KH have it. Ekholm as well. Skinner, McLeod, Nurse, VD, all under Chiarelli (from the empty cupboards as you say). Coaches- Gulutzan- hired by Chiarelli, Mark Stuart- brought in by Woodcroft. He was a coach under Jay's brother Todd before joining the Oilers, Knoblauch- Jeff Jackson brought him on. Coffey- Jeff Jackson.

So yeah- Holland is garbage. Making the playoffs with 2 generational players is not the bar. Imagine if he didnt have Chiarelli's empty cupboards (look at all those prospects that just appeared out of thin air), Chiarelli's coaches, Jackson's coaches- where would this team be?

 

[guymez]

Bob Nicholson hired both Chiarelli and Holland.
In both cases, he abandoned a lengthy search and interview process:

Oilers CEO Bob Nicholson says hiring Peter Chiarelli as GM was 'a mistake' | Sporting News Canada

Nicholson says hiring Chiarelli as Oilers GM was 'a mistake'

www.sportingnews.com

We need strong manager with a strong vision for what this team should be.



With that, I highly endorse. "Potato".

I have always maintained that Bob Nicholson is part of the problem with this team.

 

[foshizzle]

Thanks for posting this... I was about to do the same. He was slower than we'd have liked, but he was starting with two feet in a hole.

lol- no he wasn't. the poster conveniently left out McLeod, Skinner, Bouchard, VD. Add that to McDavid, Draisaitl, Nurse he listed above. Let's not forget Jay Woodcroft, Dave Manson, Glen Gulutzan. That is hardly 2 feet in a hole.

 

[bucks_oil]

lol- no he wasn't. the poster conveniently left out McLeod, Skinner, Bouchard, VD. Add that to McDavid, Draisaitl, Nurse he listed above. Let's not forget Jay Woodcroft, Dave Manson, Glen Gulutzan. That is hardly 2 feet in a hole.

I'll give you partial marks for Bouchard and VD, but both were slow played by Holland, as is his way, to over-ripen prospects. For example... he signed Barrie to a one-year deal in 2020... he then resigned Barrie because i) he was working out in the offensive role we needed, and ii) Bouchard needed more time. There was an article in the Athletic about exactly this... and now we end up with the Bouchard that we've got, significantly tilting the ice in his 2nd and 3rd season... that was good development and something we haven't had before.

As for McLeod - to me he's hardly an asset worth speaking about. Every team has potential future 30 point third liners in their prospect pool - hardly worth writing home about.

Same for Skinner - as we know, he's not a star #1 goalie by any stretch

And I counter:

1. 3 more years of Lucic at $6M
2. One-legged Sekera at $5.5M
3. Russel at $4M
4. Koskinen at $4.5M x 4

That's ONE QUARTER of Holland's cap tied up in four replacement level players, and that's being generous to their contributions in this league from 2020 onward.

Once you add in the core guys who are still here, yes we are giving Chia credit, but the math still matters: McD $12.5M, Drai $8.5, Nuge $6M, Nurse $5.6M

Now you are at $52.6M across 8 players. You have $29.1M left for the remaining 16 guys. That's $1.8M per player.

Quick: you know how to go to capfriendly.com. Go build me a roster using only the prospects in our pipeline (it was mostly bare after the guys you mentioned) and UFA's that signed in the summers of 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023.

We'll even let you assume that the guys you pick would actually have signed here for the same $$$ (a spurious assumption). Even if you avoid the miss-steps Holland made (Campbell, Nurse) it's still going to take a few years to right the ship.

And... Keep in mind as you do the exercise that the two year $5.6M bridge to Nurse was EXACTLY the amount of available cap we had in 2020, it bit him in the butt in the long run, but Holland used every penny he could on Nurse.

How many seasons does it take you to get a roster as competitive than this one? Even with the benefit of 100% hindsight, it was always going to take time.

 

[CornKicker]

one thing that never gets old is holland is to blame for every bad contract and trade but someone else gets credit for hyman, kane, ekholm etc lol always makes me laugh

 

[guymez]

Interesting how they decide to put Holland on the podium even though he has one foot out the door....

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Interesting how they decide to put Holland on the podium even though he has one foot out the door....

“I’m just here so I don’t get fined.”

 

[foshizzle]

I'll give you partial marks for Bouchard and VD, but both were slow played by Holland, as is his way, to over-ripen prospects. For example... he signed Barrie to a one-year deal in 2020... he then resigned Barrie because i) he was working out in the offensive role we needed, and ii) Bouchard needed more time. There was an article in the Athletic about exactly this... and now we end up with the Bouchard that we've got, significantly tilting the ice in his 2nd and 3rd season... that was good development and something we haven't had before.

As for McLeod - to me he's hardly an asset worth speaking about. Every team has potential future 30 point third liners in their prospect pool - hardly worth writing home about.

Same for Skinner - as we know, he's not a star #1 goalie by any stretch

And I counter:

1. 3 more years of Lucic at $6M
2. One-legged Sekera at $5.5M
3. Russel at $4M
4. Koskinen at $4.5M x 4

That's ONE QUARTER of Holland's cap tied up in four replacement level players, and that's being generous to their contributions in this league from 2020 onward.

Once you add in the core guys who are still here, yes we are giving Chia credit, but the math still matters: McD $12.5M, Drai $8.5, Nuge $6M, Nurse $5.6M

Now you are at $52.6M across 8 players. You have $29.1M left for the remaining 16 guys. That's $1.8M per player.

Quick: you know how to go to capfriendly.com. Go build me a roster using only the prospects in our pipeline (it was mostly bare after the guys you mentioned) and UFA's that signed in the summers of 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023.

We'll even let you assume that the guys you pick would actually have signed here for the same $$$ (a spurious assumption). Even if you avoid the miss-steps Holland made (Campbell, Nurse) it's still going to take a few years to right the ship.

And... Keep in mind as you do the exercise that the two year $5.6M bridge to Nurse was EXACTLY the amount of available cap we had in 2020, it bit him in the butt in the long run, but Holland used every penny he could on Nurse.

How many seasons does it take you to get a roster as competitive than this one? Even with the benefit of 100% hindsight, it was always going to take time.

lol- over-ripening is such a bullshit term. He didn’t over-ripen Bouchard. Bouchard sat in the press box as Tippett decided to play Bear and Jones.

He re-signed Barrie to an overpayment because the decision was made to have Bouchard in the press box and had no idea what he could do.

As for Skinner- again, Holland refused to bring up Skinner to replace Koskinen as a back up- so he had no idea what Skinner was and what he could do at the NHL level. He then decides to give Campbell- who had a horrific last 4 month in Toronto, was never a starter- 5M.

Sekera was bought out his first year. Holland’s first 2 seasons he had cap issues. His third year he had 30M open up in space. The year after he had 14M with Keith retiring. He put himself back in cap hell. I mean- he traded for all of Keith’s cap hit so Chicago could sign Jones for an overpay which Holland decided Nurse’s contract needed to match. That’s a quick 15M right there. He also signed Kassian to a massive overpay- re-signed Chiasson to an overpay. He’s traded assets to get rid of his mistakes. This past offseason- he decided to make the same bridging mistake he did with Nurse- and didn’t move guys like Foegele, Ceci and sign Bouchard long term

Holland didn’t have to bridge Nurse. He could have paid him the 7M his camp was asking for on a long term deal by simply moving on from Kassian- or not overpaying Kassian.

Like I said- comparing to Chiarelli is comparing garbage to garbage. He has never been a GM strong in making trades or cap management (see Detroit). He continually gets himself into trouble then complains it’s so hard.

Agree with you, it was going to take time. Year 3 is when the cap opened up and I expected significant change. He continued to sign bad contracts. Even today’s roster- he gave up a first for Henrique. A massive overpay to what teams were paying for across the league. He gave a 4th for Stetcher who they have no intention of playing. That 1st was on the table for a month- he could have made the trade a month prior- played Henrique for a month- and reassess what other holes to plug. The guys literally took deadline day off.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. He left Detroit in terrible shape and he came here and all he can say is he made the Oilers “competitive” (your word) with the 2 best players on the planet. Not good enough.

 

[CornKicker]

holland is dogshit the same time we are in our 2nd conference final in 3 years.........