HOHHOF : Early Era round-up!

[andreydali19]

Man I'm surprising myself and fully agree with the poster here.

It would be much simpler and a better exercise to keep players separate from other contributions such as builders/broadcasters ect...

Just my 2 cents

That would ease up space to focus on players famous as players, leaving the likes of Adams, Irvin, Patrick, Ross, etc. better consideration as well when they're considered for the Founders category. Of course then that would probably bring out the "then you've also gotta consider Abel, Beliveau, Clarke, Lemaire, etc." crowd, so...

 

[MXD]

I think I didn't miss anyone...

As for the builders, I'd really, but really prefer not to take care of this at this point. Somebody else might, though. If anything, I'd prefer a "off-ice" category.

 

[VanIslander]

an "off-ice" category

Perfect. That could include coaches as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Builders

I think I didn't miss anyone...

As for the builders, I'd really, but really prefer not to take care of this at this point. Somebody else might, though. If anything, I'd prefer a "off-ice" category.

Builders. This is a longtime debate. Initially there was a blend of amateur and pro which eventually blended into an NHL / non NHL distinction.

Will use two builders with Quebec roots Robert Lebel and Frank Dilio. Today these outstanding contributors would be honoured at the provincial level.

Off-ice is interesting. At the local level, off-ice contributors are honoured regularly - rinks in arenas or actual arenas named after them, provincial, regional or other varieties of recognition. Claude Mouton has a street named after him, etc.

At what point does this transition take place from the local level to the HHOF level. Honoured HHOF members Frank Dilio and Robert Lebel were enshrined for the work they did laying a significant part of the foundation of minor hockey. Their work was built on by others in a fashion which cannot effectively be measured. Yet those who came later will be honoured at the local level.

Basically the issue comes down to how the gap is viewed or bridge between the local level and the international level that the HHOF has attained in status.How many degrees of separation are necessary.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Brian Kilrea

Perfect. That could include coaches as well.

Interesting. Brian Kilrea is a rather unique enshrinement.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Lege...00302&type=Builder&page=bio&list=ByName#photo

Definitely earned but are his achievements a benchmark or are they a stand alone honour?

 

[Dreakmur]

According to Frank Fredrickson, Lester Patrick played rover rather than defense. Does anybody have some good evidence that counters this?

I've always thought Patrick was a defensemen, but, really, it was just because everyone else seemed to think so, and I never found anything to make me wonder. If he did play rover - at least for any substantial amount of time - I think that really changes things, doesn't it?

 

[seventieslord]

According to Frank Fredrickson, Lester Patrick played rover rather than defense. Does anybody have some good evidence that counters this?

I've always thought Patrick was a defensemen, but, really, it was just because everyone else seemed to think so, and I never found anything to make me wonder. If he did play rover - at least for any substantial amount of time - I think that really changes things, doesn't it?

He was getting PCHA all-star nods as a defenseman. They didn't name a rover, because if they did, it would have been Taylor every year.

 

[BM67]

According to Frank Fredrickson, Lester Patrick played rover rather than defense. Does anybody have some good evidence that counters this?

I've always thought Patrick was a defensemen, but, really, it was just because everyone else seemed to think so, and I never found anything to make me wonder. If he did play rover - at least for any substantial amount of time - I think that really changes things, doesn't it?

He did play some rover, but was primarily a defenseman. The Trail mentions him as a rover in 1906 and in 1910 in his bio.

 

[Dreakmur]

He was getting PCHA all-star nods as a defenseman. They didn't name a rover, because if they did, it would have been Taylor every year.

Where are we getting these all-star teams?

Also, he could have played most of the season as a defenseman, but still played some rover and racked up points that would make his scoring totals among defenseman a little inflated. That's my biggest question really... how many of his points were scored as rover vs. defenseman?

He did play some rover, but was primarily a defenseman. The Trail mentions him as a rover in 1906 and in 1910 in his bio.

The quote is from 1921.

 

[MXD]

Thanks everyone,

I think we have rounded up every "necessary" guy (and yeah, I have some editing job to do on the first post).

But we have a problem -- it's Christmas time, and I think it would be really useless to start the voting rounds (at a "normal" pace) now. We COULD start the process to vote in the first crop of guys from the Early Era. However --- the deadline would like be in january 2011 for obvious reasons - the WJC not necessarily being one of them.

So now, I'm asking you

- Would you prefer to start the voting rounds right away (with a very, very long deadline for the first round)

or

- Would you prefer to start the voting rounds early in 2011?

 

[Dreakmur]

I think we should be having some discussion about the players first.

 

[MXD]

I think we should be having some discussion about the players first.

Oh, sure, discussion before voting -- that's obvious!

 

[Dreakmur]

Oh, sure, discussion before voting -- that's obvious!

There's no way we'll get a decent dsicussion done before the new year anyway.

 

[Dreakmur]

Well, I suppose I'll try to get some discussion going here.

Here are my top 10 from the list provided in the first post:
Clint Benedict - clearly the best goalie on the list
Russell Bowie - the best offensive player on the list
Sprague Cleghorn - arguably a top-10 defenseman of all time, and the best on the list
Mike Grant - the best pre-NHL defenseman; a winner and a leader
Moose Johnson - the best PCHA defeseman, played forever
Newsy Lalonde - the best blend of skill and strength
Joe Malone - one of the best scorers
Mickey MacKay - only Nighbor is a better 2-way player
Frank Nighbor - the best all-around player on the list
Cyclone Taylor - almost as good offensively as Bowie, but better all-around

Here are my next 10:
George Boucher
Harry Cameron
Cy Denneny
Eddie Gerard
Hugh Lehman
Lester Patrick
Tommy Phillips (replaced Jack Walker)
Harvey Pulford
Alf Smith
Hod Stuart


What would people change here?

Obviously, nobody will agree with my top-10, but I think it's a good place to start.

 

[VanIslander]

Georges Vezina is glaringly abset from your list dreak.

And your list is heavy on the 1911-26 half of the epoch, lite on the earlier half, pre-NHA/PCHA hockey history, the 1893-1910 period. Nice to see Pulford and A. Smith on the next ten list, though Pulford is a class A all-time great, going all the way back to his heroism in the first ever Stanley Cup playoff match in 1894, though as a defensive defenseman he's likely to be a bit undervalued by stats.

 

[Dreakmur]

Georges Vezina is glaringly abset from your list dreak.

And your list is heavy on the 1911-26 half of the epoch, lite on the earlier half, pre-NHA/PCHA hockey history, the 1893-1910 period. Nice to see Pulford and A. Smith on the next ten list, though Pulford is a class A all-time great, going all the way back to his heroism in the first ever Stanley Cup playoff match in 1894, though as a defensive defenseman he's likely to be a bit undervalued by stats.

I didn't forget about Vezina btw - he was a deliberate omission. Is Vezina better than Benedict or Lehman? I don't think so. I'd even have Hap Holmes ahead of him. I know he's one of the 1945 inductees, but I think that has a lot to do with him being dead.

Oh ****... I forgot Tommy Phillips. He's definately in my "next 10". (he probably knocks out Walker)

I can see Harvey Pulford replacing Mike Grant in my top-10, but that's why we're having ths discussion I have had Pulford on an ATD team before, so I think I appreciate him fairly. I've also had Grant. They are both close I think...

Of the other pre-NHA/PCHA guys, Blair Russel would be my next guy, but I can't see him knocking anybody off my list. I considered him over Walker, but Phillips already knocks him off.

 

[MXD]

My take is that the best all-around D-Men prior to 1917 would be Hod Stuart.

But then, career a bit short.

 

[Dreakmur]

My take is that the best all-around D-Men prior to 1917 would be Hod Stuart.

But then, career a bit short.

I've researched him quite a bit, and he seems pretty over-rated. He's the next to drop off my "next 10" list if somebody else pops up.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

What about Dan Bain and Harry Trihey? Maybe the two best forwards up until the early 1900's.

I think there's merit to the idea that any player who might have been considered the best of all time upon their retirement should be amongst the initial class.

 

[VanIslander]

My take is that the best all-around D-Men prior to 1917 would be Hod Stuart..

In the ATDs this matters, NOT in HOF considerations.

Pulford was a long term star and leader of hockey's second dynasty team. He was clearly a bigger STAR than Hod in terms if ink in newspapers. I agree with dreakmur that Hod is overrated. But in the ATDs his "all-around" ability makes him more valuable than a defensive defenseman.

 

[Dreakmur]

What about Dan Bain and Harry Trihey? Maybe the two best forwards up until the early 1900's.

I think there's merit to the idea that any player who might have been considered the best of all time upon their retirement should be amongst the initial class.

Harry Trihey played what, 3 years? He's not even close to Frank McGee, and McGee's not really close to the top-20.

How good was Dan Bain exactly? I'd gladly put him in there if there was more information to prove he should be there.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well, I suppose I'll try to get some discussion going here.

Here are my top 10 from the list provided in the first post:
Clint Benedict - clearly the best goalie on the list
Russell Bowie - the best offensive player on the list
Sprague Cleghorn - arguably a top-10 defenseman of all time, and the best on the list
Mike Grant - the best pre-NHL defenseman; a winner and a leader
Moose Johnson - the best PCHA defeseman, played forever
Newsy Lalonde - the best blend of skill and strength
Joe Malone - one of the best scorers
Mickey MacKay - only Nighbor is a better 2-way player
Frank Nighbor - the best all-around player on the list
Cyclone Taylor - almost as good offensively as Bowie, but better all-around

Here are my next 10:
George Boucher
Harry Cameron
Cy Denneny
Eddie Gerard
Hugh Lehman
Lester Patrick
Tommy Phillips (replaced Jack Walker)
Harvey Pulford
Alf Smith
Hod Stuart


What would people change here?

Obviously, nobody will agree with my top-10, but I think it's a good place to start.

Four thoughts

1) I realize Frank Nighbor is in your top tier anyway, but I just want to say that he absolutely needs to be the first player from that Ottawa dynasty to be inducted. He was seen as the real star of the dynasty and they fell apart defensively when he was out on bereavement leave. See his linked profile for more details.

He also won the first Hart trophy despite being past his scoring prime, and he was the first member of the Senators dynasty to be inducted in real life.

2) Check out Eddie Gerard's profile. It appears that contemporaries viewed him on the same level as Moose Johnson, just below Sprague Cleghorn, and a step above Harry Cameron and George Boucher.

3) Frank McGee probably should be in the second group of 10 (not sure who he'd replace though). There is something to be said for being the absolute best player in the world for several years - something nobody in your 2nd tier can really say. Sure, his career was short, but it wasn't THAT short for the era. Same thing for Harry Trihey, who is probably just a step below McGee. That "historical significance" thing which doesn't matter to the ATD, but does matter here.

4) You say Russel Bowie is the best offensive player on the list. I think Cy Denneny has a lot to say about that. Yet, I would induct Bowie before Denneny too because Denneny was, at best, the 2nd most important member of his team. That "historical significance" thing again. (Either way, we're just talking about the order here, they both will get inducted eventually obviously).

 

[Dreakmur]

Four thoughts

1) I realize Frank Nighbor is in your top tier anyway, but I just want to say that he absolutely needs to be the first player from that Ottawa dynasty to be inducted. He was seen as the real star of the dynasty and they fell apart defensively when he was out on bereavement leave. See his linked profile for more details.

He also won the first Hart trophy despite being past his scoring prime, and he was the first member of the Senators dynasty to be inducted in real life.

2) Check out Eddie Gerard's profile. It appears that contemporaries viewed him on the same level as Moose Johnson, just below Sprague Cleghorn, and a step above Harry Cameron and George Boucher.

3) Frank McGee probably should be in the second group of 10 (not sure who he'd replace though). There is something to be said for being the absolute best player in the world for several years - something nobody in your 2nd tier can really say. Sure, his career was short, but it wasn't THAT short for the era. Same thing for Harry Trihey, who is probably just a step below McGee. That "historical significance" thing which doesn't matter to the ATD, but does matter here.

4) You say Russel Bowie is the best offensive player on the list. I think Cy Denneny has a lot to say about that. Yet, I would induct Bowie before Denneny too because Denneny was, at best, the 2nd most important member of his team. That "historical significance" thing again. (Either way, we're just talking about the order here, they both will get inducted eventually obviously).

1) Nighbor is probably 3rd if I put them in orderm behind Taylor and Cleghorn.

2) Gerard was probably just as good as Johnson, but Johnson played way longer. A 20 year career back then was rediculous!

3) Was McGee ever the best player in the world? It's certainly debatabe, but I don't think so.

4) Bowie is definately better than Denneny in terms of offense. Not only did he put up considerably more impressive numbers, he did it with considerably less halp! Cyclone Taylor, to me, is the only guy who has a legit argument to take that away. It depends on how much you value his offensive as a defenseman.

 

[VanIslander]

It would be interesting to hear who you think was the best player in the world in the 1890s as well as who in the 1900-1909 decade.

 

[Dreakmur]

It would be interesting to hear who you think was the best player in the world in the 1890s as well as who in the 1900-1909 decade.

1900-1909 is clearly Russell Bowie. Nobody even comes close.

Pre-1900 is a lot closer and tougher, but Mike Grant tops my list.