HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans: List of eligible players

[Theokritos]

Result of the eligibility poll: 17 votes for option 1 (We make a list naming the players who are eligible or ineligible), two votes for option 2 (We let each voter decide for himself which player is eligible).

Click to read more...

 

[Theokritos]

Eligible players

1) Every European who never played in the NHL or WHA,

plus

2) the following players who spent some time in the NHL or WHA:

-Helmuts Balderis: had a very late guest stint in the NHL. Clearly a non-NHL player overall.
-Jiří Bubla: was 31 when he came to North America.
-Anders Carlsson: three seasons in the NHL/AHL, rest of his career in Europe. Don't think he's going to come up though.
-Roman Čechmánek: four seasons in North America.
-František Černý: one season in the NHL. Doesn't have a shot realistically anyway.
-Milan Chalupa: one season in North America.
-Jiří Crha: four seasons in North America.
-Miroslav Dvořák: same as Bubla.
-Anders Eldebrink: two seasons in the NHL/AHL.
-Vyacheslav Fetisov: was 31 when he came to the NHL.
-Aleksey Gusarov: 26 when he went to North America, a borderline case but we're inclusive here.
-Matti Hagman: four seasons in North America.
-Raimo Helminen: three seasons in the NHL/AHL.
-Ivan Hlinka: 31 when he came over, two seasons in the NHL.
-Leif Holmqvist: one season in the WHA.
-Jiří Hrdina: basically four seasons in the NHL, was 30 when he came over.
-Kari Jalonen: two seasons in North America.
-Jaroslav Jiřík: one season in North America.
-Jörgen Jönsson: one season in the NHL, rest of his career in Europe.
-Valery Kamensky: long NHL career beginning in his 20s, but only after a significant injury suffered in 1991.
-Aleksey Kasatonov: came over when he was 30, best years in Europe.
-Veli-Pekka Ketola: four seasons in the WHA and NHL.
-Vladimir Krutov: not much of a career in North America.
-Igor Larionov: lengthy NHL career, but only came over when he was 29.
-Igor Liba: one season in the NHL.
-Håkan Loob: six seasons in the NHL in his 20s make him a borderline pick in terms of eligibility, but international resume trumps NHL career.
-Tord Lundström: only a few games in the NHL.
-Sergey Makarov: European career clearly tops NHL career.
-Aleksey Morozov: his best years were in Russia.
-Jarmo Myllys: four seasons in the NHL/IHL.
-Václav Nedomanský: was 30 when he came to North America.
-Milan Nový: a single season in the NHL once he had turned 31.
-Petteri Nummelin: three seasons in the NHL.
-Dušan Pašek: two seasons in North America.
-Ville Peltonen: quite some prime time in the NHL, but his European career is more impressive.
-Jaroslav Pouzar: three seasons and a half in the NHL.
-Aleksandr Radulov: like Morozov.
-Pekka Rautakallio: five seasons in North America, more in Europe.
-Vladimír Růžička: five seasons in the NHL (not all of them full seasons), a lot more in Czechoslovakia resp. the Czech Republic.
-Lars-Erik Sjöberg: only came over when he was 30.
-Marián Šťastný: five seasons in the NHL after coming over to North America at 27 years of age. A little too late to consider him an NHL player for the purpose of this project.
-Ulf Sterner: one season in North America.
-Mikhail Tatarinov: career in the NHL cut short by injuries.

EDIT: List is presumably finished. If you have a case for any player not on the list, post it in this thread.

 

[steve141]

How about Lars-Erik Sjoberg? Came to the WHA as a 30 year old.

 

[Ub the Bub]

If Larionov is eligible, why not Makarov?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jiri Bubla and Miroslav Dvorak should be eligible.

Sergei Makarov obviously (I'll assume you just made an oversight there)

I would prefer to have Sjoberg eligible too - 30 years old is such a late age to come to North America.

Ulf Sterner played 4 games for the NY Rangers - obviously he should be eligible

 

[Theokritos]

Makarov was an oversight. Adding him and the other guys mentioned.

 

[Batis]

Some other players who played some games in the NHL but obviously spent their best years in Europe.

Tord Lundström: Played only 11 games in the NHL at age 28.
Ivan Hlinka: Played two seasons in the NHL at age 31+.
Jaroslav Jirik: Played 3 NHL games at age 30.

 

[Theokritos]

Some other players who played in the NHL but obviously spent their best years in Europe.

Tord Lundström: Played only 11 games in the NHL at age 28.
Ivan Hlinka: Played two seasons in the NHL at age 31+.
Jaroslav Jirik: Played 3 NHL games at age 30.

Going to add them. Thanks.

 

[splot]

Leif Holmqvist: One season in the WHA at 33

 

[Theokritos]

Leif Holmqvist: One season in the WHA at 33

Added.

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Is a guy like Radulov eligible?

 

[Theokritos]

Is a guy like Radulov eligible?

Technically there is no reason he shouldn't be, is there?

 

[VMBM]

Pekka Rautakallio: five seasons in the NHL, more in Europe.

3 in the NHL, 2 in the WHA.

What about Matti Hagman, the first true Finnish player in the NHL? His NHL career was a bit similar to Peltonen's, just somewhat better. He had a good start on his international career (1975-76), but did not play for Team Finland that much in the 1980s anymore. Still, a great talent, and a great career in the Finnish league (HIFK 'icon').

 

[Theokritos]

3 in the NHL, 2 in the WHA.

What about Matti Hagman, the first true Finnish player in the NHL?

Good catches.

Anyone wants to argue that Valery Kamensky shouldn't be eligible? Or that Loob & Mats Näslund should be eligible?

 

[DN28]

Other czechoslovak players who played in NHL but had their best years in Europe: Igor Liba, Dusan Pasek, Frantisek Cernik, Milan Chalupa, Jaroslav Pouzar, Jiri Crha and maybe Jiri Hrdina.

 

[Theokritos]

Other czechoslovak players who played in NHL but had their best years in Europe: Igor Liba, Dusan Pasek, Frantisek Cernik, Milan Chalupa, Jaroslav Pouzar, Jiri Crha and maybe Jiri Hrdina.

All added.

 

[MXD]

Good catches.

Anyone wants to argue that Valery Kamensky shouldn't be eligible? Or that Loob & Mats Näslund should be eligible?

Naslund not eligible is obvious, but from what I gather, Loob played more games in Europe than in North America, while Kamensky played more games in North America than in Europe. Furthermore, the only reason why Kamensky European game totals are any close to his NA games totals are the games accrued after 2002 by virtue of not being an NHL'er anymore. At least Loob has had good seasons in Europe before turning 30 but after leaving the NHL.

I'm not even sure we should consider Loob eligible, but if Kamensky somehow is, Loob should be. If Loob isn't, then no way Kamensky should be.

 

[splot]

Naslund not eligible is obvious, but from what I gather, Loob played more games in Europe than in North America, while Kamensky played more games in North America than in Europe. Furthermore, the only reason why Kamensky European game totals are any close to his NA games totals are the games accrued after 2002 by virtue of not being an NHL'er anymore. At least Loob has had good seasons in Europe before turning 30 but after leaving the NHL.

I'm not even sure we should consider Loob eligible, but if Kamensky somehow is, Loob should be. If Loob isn't, then no way Kamensky should be.

Loob did not play more games in Europe than the NHL, back in the 80s a full season in the SHL was only 36 games. He did spend the majority of his career in Sweden though, 11 seasons vs 6 in the NHL. You could make an argument for that he was and still is much more important for hockey in Sweden than the NA. He still holds the record for most goals and assist despite a 36 game season compared to 55 today.

The argument against him is that the majority of his prime was in the NHL, even if he was one of the best player in the SHL until he retired.

 

[MXD]

Loob did not play more games in Europe than the NHL, back in the 80s a full season in the SHL was only 36 games. He did spend the majority of his career in Sweden though, 11 seasons vs 6 in the NHL. You could make an argument for that he was and still is much more important for hockey in Sweden than the NA. He still holds the record for most goals and assist despite a 36 game season compared to 55 today.
.

Well, H-R might not be the best source, but it appears Loob played 523 games in the NHL (including playoffs) in 580 games in Europe (including national playoffs). In that number, I include the 32 games played with the National Team. I also included the 42 games played in the 3rd division (which, after thinking about it, doesn't appear right), and the games played in the 2nd division... Which probably absolutely need to be counted.

That would give 538 games in Europe. That is, a bit more than in NA, inspite of generally shorter seasons and playoffs.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I don't see why you should count games when we're comparing many different schedules. Seasons makes more sense.

Loob played 13 years in Europe at ages 17-22 and 29-35, and 6 in the NHL at ages 23-38.
Naslund played 10 years in Europe at ages 17-22, and 31-34, and 9 in the NHL at ages 23-30, and 35.
Kamensky played 10 years in Europe at ages 17-24 and 37-38, and 11 in the NHL at ages 25-35.

- Kamensky seems like an easy exclude candidate for me. Yes it looks like he spent an even amount of time in Europe and the NHL, but this includes three pretty meaningless seasons: 20GP as a 17 year old, 12 points as an 18 year old, 23GP as a 37 year old. Throw in two more seasons early in his career when was outside of the top 20 scorers and the 11 straight years in the NHL look a little more compelling.

- Loob and Naslund returned him earlier than Kamensky, but they also left earlier.
Leaves for NHL: Loob and Naslund 23, Kamensky 25
Returns to Europe: Loob 29, Naslund 31, Kamensky 37
I believe Loob and Naslund's abilities to add meaningful seasons to their Europe-only career after their time in North American is more important than Kamensky getting an extra two seasons in Europe at ages 24 and 25.

I counted second division seasons for Loob and Naslund. Effectively, Loob returned home two years before Naslund did and didn't return for a final year in the NHL. Do the two extra seasons during Naslund's prime years make enough of a difference to exclude him, but include Loob? Personally, I'm interested in exploring Loob's SHL career so my answer to that question is biased.

 

[Plural]

Kari Jalonen

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=3403

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari_Jalonen

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=13078

Most points in FEL single season: 29+64=93 44GP
All-time leader in FEL playoff points: 38+77=115 94GP
Won the Finnish league championship 5 times as a player
Represented Finland in World Championships 6 times and once in Canada Cup
Rookie of the year 1979
First team all-star 1987, 1989

Jalonen was a skilled player with great playmaking abilities. His offensive skills were good enough to warrant NHL career, but he never managed to adapt to the physicality in the show. His skills were best utilized as a "top-dog" in his team. So, there was no place for him outside of top-role. Therefore, his NHL career was cut short, only 37 games in two different seasons. He was also reportedly home-sick, which probably led to his decision to keep playing in Finland.

One of the most successful Finnish elite league player of all-time.

He's also my neighbor. Nice dude. Mostly lives in Helsinki, but his 2nd apartment is just few floors below ours.

 

[Theokritos]

Jalonen added. Agree Kamensky shouldn't be eligible. Loob & Näslund still need discussion IMO.

 

[steve141]

Jalonen added. Agree Kamensky shouldn't be eligible. Loob & Näslund still need discussion IMO.

To not include Loob in a project like this would be a bit like not listing Bobby Hull on a list of greatest WHA players because he peaked in the NHL. Especially if we wind up listing other Swedes who had a smaller impact in Europe. Is say make him eligible, and let the voters decide whether his performance should merit him a spot in the list.

Naslund was a successful player internationally, but did not at all have the same impact domestically as Loob, so I think his situation is different.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Kamensky's greatest accomplishments were clearly in Russia before his injury, right?

 

[nwaZ*]

Glad to see Jörgen Jönsson included. He was fantastic for Färjestad and always a lock for the national team, no matter the competition. Very smart two-way center.