HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

[tarheelhockey]

For those who aren't going to reread the pre-1950 research thread in detail, here's an extra candidate who gets missed by our normal "great goalie" parameters:

For what it's worth, I went digging for additional goalies to add to the list, who may somehow have been missed by the fairly easy standard TDMM used. I feel pretty confident that all of the worthy NHL candidates are accounted for -- the best I could come up with were guys like Bill Beveridge and Jake Forbes, who have no chance of making this list.

The only name I would like to throw out there, since I know virtually nothing else about him, is Hal Winkler. This is what I have:

- playing career 1913-1931
- played senior hockey until age 30. Pro career was primarily spent in the western leagues.
- Goalie for the Edmonton Eskimos when they won the WHL and challenged Ottawa for the Stanley Cup. Arguably the top goalie in WHL history, a league which periodically included George Hainsworth, Hap Holmes and Hugh Lehman (all on our list).
- After a cup of coffee in New York, Winkler led Boston to a Final in 1927 and then posted a league-leading 15 shutouts in 1928.
- Left the NHL for the AHA where he posted a 0.98 GAA (incidentally, he replaced Tiny Thompson on that team); played a season in the PCHL, one in the Can-Am league, and retired.

I doubt very much that he did enough to warrant a top-30 spot, but he's the only possible candidate I can find who had NHL experience (and outstanding experience at that!) who isn't already on the list. And I do think he belongs on our list.

What I don't know is, subjectively, whether he was as good a goalie as the others.

Edit: BTW, I couldn't find any viable candidate in the PCHL or WHL except for those already included.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I know we just had this argument elsewhere. But false.

They were on their way to getting eliminated by Nashville in the first round with Hasek in net. Osgood came in at the end of game 4 as Nashville tied the series with all the momentum and the rest as they say is history.


GP:19 GA:1.55 SV%.930

18 Starts - 14-4

He won his next nine starts. He started the stanley cup finals with two straight shutouts. I think he is the fourth player in the history of the NHL to accomplish that feat if I remember right. He was probably runner up to Zetterberg for Conn Smythe and an easy argument can be made he deserved the award. They don't have a banner without Chris Osgood in 08.

He split time with Hasek during which the two won the Jennings award that season. By the way he played the more games in both the years the Jennings was won over both Vernon and Hasek. But he actually had the lowest GAA average in the league in both the regular season and playoffs in 2008.

Osgood Stat accomplishments read

4th all time in NHL wins percentage
10th all time in Wins
7th all time in GAA
Two Jennings
Two Stanley Cups as a starter (One as a backup)
Five Stanley Cup finals (One as a backup)
He is also in the top ten of virtually every playoff stat, SO, Wins, SV%, GAA.

You can say he never jumped out at you as elite, fine that is true of a lot of players. That is why he doesn't belong near the top ten and is a fringe hall of fame candidate. But his credentials speak for themselves. I can make a case for putting him somewhere in the low 20's and do so with a straight face and not just blind homerism. I will have to sit down and do it, but I cannot see him not coming in somewhere in the 30's even when I examine this more closely. I was blessed to see Vernon, Hasek, Cujo and Osgood all in a short time period. I can tell you he belongs with those guys. It is more than just watching Wings games I have long thought Osgood belonged under the tier of Hasek, Roy and Brodeur. Belfour who I saw a lot, I would not take over Osgood and I realize I am in the minority, but they have similar credentials. Belfour did get his Vezina's though. He belongs in the discussion, where he ranks at that point is personal opinion. Obviously Hasek is out in front in terms of Wings goalies (mostly from his Sabres days) but my point is Osgood was a great goalie. He just never got enough credit.

My point was I wanted to see him added to the list which he was. I also feel like his name would be questioned because if he didn't make the preliminary list and I handed in a spread sheet with him on it. I would be questioned for it and I think his case should be made because he is undersold a lot. I thought we were encouraged to do that.

I don't doubt that he has the statistics. That's the point of research. Otherwise, it's very easy to decide who the best players of all time are: just sort by points and by save pct. - interesting that 14 of the top 15 goalies of all time play in the league today by that particular metric...

I hope the "tier right below Hasek, Roy and Brodeur" isn't on an all-time level...that would be bloody disastrous...

We must have been watching different playoffs, Osgood was better, to me, in 2009 than in 2008...the Red Wings team in 2008 was so dominant in my eyes that if they had a really good goalie, they might not have lost...they were that good...

With all due respect, and as a student of the game myself, I would be despondent if Osgood cracked this top-40 list...that would really make me question the whole process...he is exactly the type of player that I would think and hope the committee would be trying to weed out...someone that rode the coat tails of a dominant team but wasn't particularly better than his replacements (minus the one time he knocked out a 60 year old Hasek), had no success away from the team and the team had success when he went away...

Osgood, like I said in the Cloutier thread, just looks like a goalie that was trained before the "goalie revolution" and came into his own just after it...thus the early success (like the shortened 1995 season, the odd 1996 season), but as you trend further and further into the evolution, Osgood's statistics (which seems to be his main draw) just blend in with that of his backups. And then the Wings win one immediately after he's dispatched...

I mean, despite all the shiny statistics, even the easily-fooled media today doesn't fall for it, much less the GMs (who I trust much more today) who didn't even consider him for the Vezina minus, what, one time in a supposed "great" career? For 15 years, the league's GMs purposefully and knowingly ignored his alleged greatness? Didn't fight for him when he was dispatched from the team in the early 2000's? (Much worse, he was peddled off from a team that missed its peak and seemed to enjoy being an above average team for 20 years to a team that might have been better off going dormant after the first lockout to save money and embarrassment).

I have a little different take on players than some of the historians here because I try to look at things as a coach/scout more than anything else, I really don't know any other way, I'm trying to learn...but beyond any shadow of a doubt, in 2008 for instance, Osgood was the only thing that cost the Red Wings a sweep in the Finals...I mean, in game 3 he was just brutal, banking pucks off of him, game 6 Malkin just shoots one clean through him...I mean, just to be blunt, from my perspective, he just wasn't that talented of a goalie...maybe if he started in 1984 instead of 1994, the perception would be different...but he was just a cost-cutting measure that happened to play behind a HHOF d-man in Lidstrom, some great coaches in Babcock and Bowman and just rode it...he never did anything that made me (or countless others) go, "wow, thank God they have Osgood because "player X" couldn't have done that..." the Wings almost seemed to spend half of his career looking for someone to replace him...

I mean, it was just whoever was there was winning but yet it was still a roller coaster...never happened in a place like New Jersey for instance, during the same time...Ok, Osgood is the guy, he's winning ok good, now Osgood's out, Vernon's in he's winning, ok he's out, who's next, ok Osgood again, oops, he blows again, how about Hasek, ok we win, now you're out, CuJo you're in, you lost, you're out, how about Legace, ok undefeated regular season or whatever he had and he lost, now he's out, Osgood you're in...ok we win, let's get a new goalie, ok Howard you're in...and it just never stops...

He just didn't inspire the confidence of the team he was winning for, much less anyone else...he's a poster child for stats overrating the performance of a player and I would say he's the type of guy left on the side of a milk carton when this list gets published, but that would infer that someone is actually looking for him...

 

[tony d]

I think this is going to be very interesting once we get past the top 8-10 goalies. Also I'd be interested to see where Roy Worters will go. Probably not the top 10 but to me he should be somewhere in the top 20. Reason being he had a respectable record despite playing for lacklustre teams like the old Pittsburgh Pirates and the New York Americans. He's a goalie I've always liked and I'm interested to see where he finishes on this list.

 

[MXD]

Actually, I think the Top-7 is pretty well-established. Certainly not the the order, but the identity of the players.

Winkler? Haven't prepared my list, but will probably make my Top-60.

Worters? I can't see how the guy can be considered Top-10, but he should be a very safe bet to make it in the final list... likely in the top-30.

Osgood? Too much accomplishments to not AT LEAST warrant consideration for the list. The problem with him is... I'm not sure I'm ready to rank him above some goalies whose presence on my Top-60 isn't granted at all (think Ron Hextall).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Chris Osgood

Probably one of the best tandem goalies since the introduction of the two goalie system but not a stand alone #1 or lead goalie.

 

[Sentinel]

he never did anything that made me (or countless others) go, "wow, thank God they have Osgood because "player X" couldn't have done that..."

That happened at least twice. In the Round 2 of 1999 had he not gotten injured, the Wings would have won their third Cup. In 2008 he clearly came in and saved the day.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: Winkler, I seriously need to be sold. The HHOF committee was not exactly shy about inducting players of that era, but they didn't get to him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

PCHA All Star Goalies

1911-12: Hugh Lehman
1912-13: Bert Lindsay
1913-14: Hugh Lehman
1914-15: Hugh Lehman
1915-16 1st Team: Hugh Lehman
1915-16 2nd Team: Hap Holmes
1916-17 1st Team: Hec Fowler
1916-17 2nd Team: Hap Holmes
1917-18 1st Team: Hugh Lehman
1917-18 2nd Team: Hec Fowler
1918-19 1st Team: Hugh Lehman
1918-19 2nd Team: Hap Holmes
1919-20 1st Team: Hugh Lehman
1919-20 2nd Team: Hap Holmes
1920-21 1st Team: Hugh Lehman
1920-21 2nd Team: Hap Holmes
1921-22 1st Team: Hugh Lehman
1921-22 2nd Team: Hap Holmes
1922-23 1st Team: Hugh Lehman
1922-23 2nd Team: Hap Holmes
1923-24: Hugh Lehman

Hugh Lehman was something else, eh? Yet Hap Holmes' teams tended to be more successful in the playoffs. I really hope we can examine this further.

WCHL/WHL All Star Goalies

1921-22 1st Team: none?
1921-22 2nd Team: Bill Laird
1922-23 1st Team: Hal Winkler
1922-23 2nd Team: Bill Laird
1923-24 1st Team: Hugh McCusker
1923-24 2nd Team: none?
1924-25: Hap Holmes
1925-26: George Hainsworth

The PCHA folded after 1924 and was absorbed into the WCHL. Looks like Hap Holmes from the PCHA took over immediately as the best goalie in the WCHL. And color me officially unimpressed by Hal Winkler

WHA All Star Goalies

1972-73 1st Team: Gerry Cheevers
1972-73 2nd Team: Bernie Parent
1972-73 3rd Team: Al Smith
1973-74 1st Team: Don McLeod
1973-74 2nd Team: Gerry Cheevers
1974-75 1st Team: Ron Grahame
1974-75 2nd Team: Gerry Cheevers
1975-76 1st Team: Joe Daley
1975-76 2nd Team: Ron Grahame
1976-77 1st Team: John Garrett
1976-77 2nd Team: Joe Daley
1977-78 1st Team: Al Smith
1977-78 2nd Team: Ernie Wakely
1978-79 1st Team: Dave Dryden
1978-79 2nd Team: Richard Brodeur

Adds a little to the Cheevers resume; I doubt anyone else from the WHA has a shot at the list.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Re: Winkler, I seriously need to be sold. The HHOF committee was not exactly shy about inducting players of that era, but they didn't get to him.

His NHL numbers were certainly impressive during a brief window.

Much like Hainsworth in the previous thread, we will need to find out whether he was the backbone of those teams or just coasting behind a great defense.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

His NHL numbers were certainly impressive during a brief window.

Much like Hainsworth in the previous thread, we will need to find out whether he was the backbone of those teams or just coasting behind a great defense.

According to hockey reference, he was 3rd and 5th in GAA in a 10 team league during his two full NHL seasons. And the third place was pretty far behind 2nd place. Solid goalie definitely, but I really don't see him as top 60 material or even all that close

 

[tommygunn]

WHA All Star Goalies

1972-73 1st Team: Gerry Cheevers
1972-73 2nd Team: Bernie Parent
1972-73 3rd Team: Al Smith
1973-74 1st Team: Don McLeod
1973-74 2nd Team: Gerry Cheevers
1974-75 1st Team: Ron Grahame
1974-75 2nd Team: Gerry Cheevers
1975-76 1st Team: Joe Daley
1975-76 2nd Team: Ron Grahame
1976-77 1st Team: John Garrett
1976-77 2nd Team: Joe Daley
1977-78 1st Team: Al Smith
1977-78 2nd Team: Ernie Wakely
1978-79 1st Team: Dave Dryden
1978-79 2nd Team: Richard Brodeur

Adds a little to the Cheevers resume; I doubt anyone else from the WHA has a shot at the list.

Parent!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Parent!

Heh, of course. I think Parent's WHA career is such a relatively minor part of what he did, it's basically irrelevant. But yeah, he was a 2nd Teamer in the WHA before his 2 big NHL seasons

 

[Epsilon]

I'm not going to start discussing specific comparisons yet, but I do think, given how much Chris Osgood's name has already came up in this thread, it will be interesting to compare him with Gerry Cheevers.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm not going to start discussing specific comparisons yet, but I do think, given how much Chris Osgood's name has already came up in this thread, it will be interesting to compare him with Gerry Cheevers.

Indeed. The more I look into the circumstances underlying Cheevers' accomplishments, the less impressive he seems.

 

[VanIslander]

WHA Hall of Fame inductees:

Richard Brodeur
Gerry Cheevers
Joe Daley
Ron Grahame
Al Smith
Ernie Wakely

Piss on it all you like but these respected hockey figures thought them worthy of remembrance: The voters included the WHA Hall Of Fame Board, invited hockey media members, hockey historians – and former WHA players, coaches and management.

WHA Hall of Fame Voters

The WHA Advisory Board:
Timothy Gassen (President & Founder, WHA HOF)
Jacques Demers (WHA coach)
Anders Hedberg (WHA All-Star)
Pat Stapleton (WHA All-Star, coach, GM & Chicago Cougars co-owner)
Jack Stanfield (WHA Player & Houston Aeros VP)
Bob Lamey (Broadcasting Hall of Fame, WHA broadcaster)
Jeff Marek (Hockey Night in Canada, CBC)
Brian Costello (The Hockey News senior editor)
Scott Surgent (WHA historian & author)
Curtis Walker (WHA historian & author)
Mark Willand (WHA historian & filmmaker)

Other invited voters:
Bruce Boggess (historian)
Jim Boyd (WHA player)
Les Brandt (historian)
Michael Campbell (historian)
Tod Denault (hockey author)
Jim Dorey ( WHA player)
Barry Dunlop (historian)
Jim Farmer (historian)
Mike Fornes (WHA broadcaster)
Tom Frost (historian)
Roger Godin (historian)
Randy Greb (historian)
Nick Harbaruk (WHA player)
Stephane Harvey (historian)
Paul Hoganson (WHA player)
Morey Holzman (historian)
Jason Kasiorak (historian)
Blaise Lamphier (historian)
Don Larway (WHA player)
Paul Ledoux (historian)
Andy MacWilliams (WHA broadcaster)
Al McLeod (WHA player)
Lyle Moffat (WHA player)
Ulf Nilsson (WHA player)
Paul Patskou (historian)
Craig Roberts (WHA broadcaster)
Larry Sekuler (historian)
Rick Smith (WHA player)
Billy Steele (WHA player)
Jerry Trupiano (WHA broadcaster)
Rick Smith (WHA player)

 

[VanIslander]

US Hockey Hall of Fame inductees include:

MIKE KARAKAS
FRANK BRIMSEK
JOHN VANBIESBROUCK
MIKE RICHTER

 

[VanIslander]

Those chosen in last year's 1000-pick ATD (All-Time Draft) on the HfBoards ATD sub-board:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=897805

Warning: Awful order but nice list. Good as minor consultation source, as is control-f - ing the ATD sub-board for bio info.

 

[Epsilon]

About the ATD list: thanks for compiling that information, but it might be better to delete the pick positions (and perhaps re-arrange the list, such as alphabetically) so that there's no explicit ranking of the players.

 

[DaveG]

US Hockey Hall of Fame inductees include:

MIKE KARAKAS
FRANK BRIMSEK
JOHN VANBIESBROUCK
MIKE RICHTER

Also Tom Barrasso

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The last thing we need are people just copying the awful order of the ATD list

Definitely good to have all the names here though

 

[VanIslander]

The last thing we need are people just copying the awful order of the ATD list

Fixed then.

There is an alphabetical list of netminders, sorted within time eras, on this ATD Master List of Bios:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1149019

Scroll down to the bottom of each era's listings for click-able biographies! It's a useful resource.

 

[tarheelhockey]

According to hockey reference, he was 3rd and 5th in GAA in a 10 team league during his two full NHL seasons. And the third place was pretty far behind 2nd place. Solid goalie definitely, but I really don't see him as top 60 material or even all that close

And that was when he was 34 and 35 years old, presumably past his peak. By comparison, Benedict was roughly the same age and his best years came almost a decade beforehand.

Combining Winkler's 2 NHL seasons (purely for the sake of not dealing with 2 different lists):

1. Hainsworth 1.26
2. Connell 1.36
3. Benedict 1.56
4. Winkler 1.60
5. Chabot 1.61
6. Holmes 1.98
7. Roach 2.00
8. Worters 2.03

Everyone else on that list will get consideration for sure.

One of those 2 seasons involved an excellent Finals run by Winkler, and the next year he gave the Bruins a chance to win a series in which they only scored 1 goal in each game.

Two good NHL seasons and two good playoffs, as an older goalie, to put him in a pack of goalies who will all get consideration in this project. Tons of success in non-NHL competition both before and after his NHL years, at a time when non-NHL success was significant.

Winkler isn't "my guy" or anything, but I'm not sure why we wouldn't put him on the list for research to see if his performances back up his stats. His biggest flaw is the lack of an extended NHL career, but that isn't an absolute requirement and he certainly didn't fail to meet the NHL standard of play.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1927-28 Manager All Star Team voting for goalie (copied from overpass' post in the All Star records thread)

Goal: Roy Worters, Pit (7-1), George Hainsworth, Mon (1-4), Alec Connell, Ott (1-3), John Ross Roach, Tor (1-1)

The voters: Cecil Hart, Eddie Gerard, Dave Gill, Connie Smythe, Shorty Green, Art Ross, Lester Patrick, Jack Adams, Odie Cleghorn, Hugh Lehman. (Reads like a list of NHL trophies.)

Huge difference between what the managers saw and the GAA records

 

[tarheelhockey]

Huge difference between what the managers saw and the GAA records

Well, you brought GAA up. Is it important, or not?

Nobody would put Winkler in the same breath as the first three guys on that list, I'm pretty sure. I know you understand why marginal finishes (like Roach's 1-1) are not particularly important.

The voting shows that Winkler wasn't considered the best goalie in the NHL, but we knew that. The issue isn't his 2 NHL seasons, which are merely the basis for opening a discussion on his career. The issue is whether his non-NHL achievements hold any significance.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Well, you brought GAA up. Is it important, or not?

Nobody would put Winkler in the same breath as the first three guys on that list, I'm pretty sure. I know you understand why marginal finishes (like Roach's 1-1) are not particularly important.

The voting shows that Winkler wasn't considered the best goalie in the NHL, but we knew that. The issue isn't his 2 NHL seasons, which are merely the basis for opening a discussion on his career. The issue is whether his non-NHL achievements hold any significance.

I think Roach getting votes as a top 2 goalie from 2 of 10 managers (they weren't called general managers then, just managers) is somewhat significant.

Does anyone know who selected the WCHL/WCL All Stars? Winkler's record isn't particularly impressive there given the relatively weak competition among goalies.

Winkler won a lot of games for the Edmonton Eskimos in the WCHL, but he was playing behind the best defenseman (Bullet Joe Simpson) and best forward (Duke Keats) in the league, both of who are in the HHOF mostly for their WCHL exploits.