HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Canadiens1958]

Goalie Management.

Scotty Bowman was the master of goalie management. One of the reasons was that Scotty Bowman had a unique coaching experience coaching the Hull-Ottawa Jr/Sr Canadiens in the second half of the fifties.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0009231957.html

Note the ages and games played of the two goalies on the roster.

Basically a junior team that played in an eastern Ontario junior league that was Memorial Cup eligible AND in the QSHL, a semi-pro league. The team had two goalies - one junior eligible, one not.

This data was later applied in Montreal by Toe Blake - managing Hodge/Worsley/Vachon very successfully, Scotty Bowman in St. Louis especially with Hall/Plante, Bowman in Montreal with Dryden and various back-ups, Al Arbour, a Bowman player, with Smith/Resch , and Glen Sather, a Bowman player with Fuhr/Moog. Interesting lineage.

Some goalies can play two consecutive nights better than others, others are much weaker the second game. Some travel well, others do not,. Coaching is about knowing and recognizing these and other factors, then applying them.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Scotty Bowman was the master of goalie management. One of the reasons was that Scotty Bowman had a unique coaching experience coaching the Hull-Ottawa Jr/Sr Canadiens in the second half of the fifties.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0009231957.html

Note the ages and games played of the two goalies on the roster.

Basically a junior team that played in an eastern Ontario junior league that was Memorial Cup eligible AND in the QSHL, a semi-pro league. The team had two goalies - one junior eligible, one not.

This data was later applied in Montreal by Toe Blake - managing Hodge/Worsley/Vachon very successfully, Scotty Bowman in St. Louis especially with Hall/Plante, Bowman in Montreal with Dryden and various back-ups, Al Arbour, a Bowman player, with Smith/Resch , and Glen Sather, a Bowman player with Fuhr/Moog. Interesting lineage.

Some goalies can play two consecutive nights better than others, others are much weaker the second game. Some travel well, others do not,. Coaching is about knowing and recognizing these and other factors, then applying them.

So goalie stamina is based on coaches' opinions?

 

[BM67]

Gilles Meloche, age 22, appeared in 59 games, playing 3473 minutes during the 1972-73 for the California Golden Seals:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/melocgi01.html

his back-up was Gary Edwards, who appeared in 27 games.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/e/edwarga01.html

Marv Edwards, Gary came later.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/e/edwarma01.html

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Another guy I considered, and that I'd consider ahead of Meloche, is Dan Bouchard, who outplayed his partners for most of his career. Playoff record is sortof explainable, but just TOO underwhelming.

Actually, CG... Do you have Bouchard on your list?

Yes, I have Bouchard on my list too ahead of Meloche. His playoff record is a bit concerning, I agree, although I don't put as much of a weighting on playoffs as others do. I do think that Bouchard was one of the most talented goalies of his era, although there's probably a good chance that I'm overrating him by relying too heavily on the numbers vs. backups.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Marv Edwards

Marv Edwards, Gary came later.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/e/edwarma01.html

Marv Edwards - good catch. Does not change the usage of Gilles Meloche or the results or the usage of Denis Herron or the results, nor decisions that were made.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Facts and Interpretations

So goalie stamina is based on coaches' opinions?

Coaches have access to team in house stats, trainer reports, medical reports,witness pre game morning skates, warm-ups, in game updates, etc. First hand in game observations, spotter and asst coach contributions.

Suggest some one who is better placed to determine player performance and influencing factors better than coaches. On the other hand not all coaches may determine equally well.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Coaches have access to team in house stats, trainer reports, medical reports,witness pre game morning skates, warm-ups, in game updates, etc. First hand in game observations, spotter and asst coach contributions.

Coaches' decisions also are based on how good the alternative is. Don't you think that Martin Brodeur would have been used less if his backup were Dominik Hasek and not Corey Schwab?

 

[seekritdude]

Only 4 seasons where Arturs Irbe played 60+ regular season NHL games. Variety of teams. Some "Wow" factor yet nothing that clearly stamped his influence on an era.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/i/irbear01.html

yea but irbe also played for some of the worst teams in the history of the nhl. Is that not taken into consideration?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Coaches' decisions also are based on how good the alternative is. Don't you think that Martin Brodeur would have been used less if his backup were Dominik Hasek and not Corey Schwab?

And without disagreeing with this point, maybe there isn't necessarily a need for that in some coaches' eyes - Brodeur is a bit of an exception to all rules because he helped make the rules in New Jersey (as time went by) basically...if Marty wanted to play, he'd play. But, your point withstanding, a coach would have influence on a GM's decisions - especially something in the short-term like a competent backup goalie...

Look at Scotty Bowman (once more) in Pittsburgh. The Penguins had Wendell Young as a backup, and he evidently wasn't cutting it, so given Bowman's track record I have to assume that he had some say in the acquisition of Ken Wregget at the trade deadline in 1992...down the stretch, Barrasso played 15 games to Wregget's 9...that's a 50/30 split in the regular season, is it not? Sounds pretty Bowman-esque.

I'm not taking a side (or even making much of a point I don't think), just trying to add information, but I think there's merit to what C1958 is saying certainly (not to say you're necessarily discounting it all together)...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting....

Coaches' decisions also are based on how good the alternative is. Don't you think that Martin Brodeur would have been used less if his backup were Dominik Hasek and not Corey Schwab?

Trust you are not implying that Dominik Hasek is back-up quality compared to Martin Brodeur because if you are this really impacts the the Top 40 rankings at the top. Definitely sure you are not making such an implication - you are just using extremes to make a point about the quality of alternatives.


In the comparison between Meloche and Herron the alternatives were very weak in both situations. Point is that in the case of Meloche the coach always made the choice that would provide longer rest time while in the Herron situation the coach was confident that Herron had the stamina to play three games in four days at various points in the season.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Trust you are not implying that Dominik Hasek is back-up quality compared to Martin Brodeur because if you are this really impacts the the Top 40 rankings at the top. Definitely sure you are not making such an implication - you are just using extremes to make a point about the quality of alternatives.

I was trying to present a contrast so stark that you'd understand the point that I was making.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Size Considerations

And without disagreeing with this point, maybe there isn't necessarily a need for that in some coaches' eyes - Brodeur is a bit of an exception to all rules because he helped make the rules in New Jersey (as time went by) basically...if Marty wanted to play, he'd play. But, your point withstanding, a coach would have influence on a GM's decisions - especially something in the short-term like a competent backup goalie...

Look at Scotty Bowman (once more) in Pittsburgh. The Penguins had Wendell Young as a backup, and he evidently wasn't cutting it, so given Bowman's track record I have to assume that he had some say in the acquisition of Ken Wregget at the trade deadline in 1992...down the stretch, Barrasso played 15 games to Wregget's 9...that's a 50/30 split in the regular season, is it not? Sounds pretty Bowman-esque.

I'm not taking a side (or even making much of a point I don't think), just trying to add information, but I think there's merit to what C1958 is saying certainly (not to say you're necessarily discounting it all together)...

Size considerations. Ken Dryden,, Martin Brodeur, Tom Barrasso were 6'2" - 6'4", 205 -220 lb range protected by big defensemen.

Gilles Meloche, Denis Herron were 5'10" - 5'11", 165-185 lb range. not protected by big defensemen. Bernie Parent was 5'10", 180 lbs. With the big Flyer dmen he could play many games, previously with other teams and smaller dmen he could not play as many games per season.

 

[seventieslord]

correlation between size of defensemen and number of games a goalie is able to play in a season... this i gotta see!

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Coaches' decisions also are based on how good the alternative is. Don't you think that Martin Brodeur would have been used less if his backup were Dominik Hasek and not Corey Schwab?

It also seems subject to trends. In the 80s playing 60 games was a lot. Now it's the basic expectation for a starter.

Gilles Meloche, Denis Herron were 5'10" - 5'11", 165-185 lb range. not protected by big defensemen. Bernie Parent was 5'10", 180 lbs. With the big Flyer dmen he could play many games, previously with other teams and smaller dmen he could not play as many games per season.

Miikka Kiprusoff is listed as 6-1, 185.

 

[Killion]

correlation between size of defensemen and number of games a goalie is able to play in a season... this i gotta see!

... pretty simple straight forward common sense. The bigger your defenceman the less traffic in the form of bodies you face in or near your crease, shooting lanes cleared more efficiently, less stress, a more leisurely pace to the game.

 

[seventieslord]

... pretty simple straight forward common sense. The bigger your defenceman the less traffic in the form of bodies you face in or near your crease, shooting lanes cleared more efficiently, less stress, a more leisurely pace to the game.

then the numbers definitely show this. Right?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

It also seems subject to trends. In the 80s playing 60 games was a lot. Now it's the basic expectation for a starter.

It's also related to salaries. Nowadays, you pay a top goaltender a lot of money, and you don't control his career for very long. Why wouldn't you play him as much as possible?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

... pretty simple straight forward common sense. The bigger your defenceman the less traffic in the form of bodies you face in or near your crease, shooting lanes cleared more efficiently, less stress, a more leisurely pace to the game.

Haven't defensemen steadily gotten bigger? Why the move from a single starter to platoons in the mid-late 60s?

 

[Killion]

then the numbers definitely show this. Right?

... I wouldnt know. Dont pay attention to nor do I put a whole lot of stock in numbers. Much prefer Eyeball (and experience) to Moneyball.

Haven't defensemen steadily gotten bigger? Why the move from a single starter to platoons in the mid-late 60s?

Players overall have steadily gotten bigger (including goalies of course) but contemporaneously, by position, Defenceman were almost always bigger than forwards, not always necessarily taller, but often broader, huskier, stronger. Guys who could clear the zone, stop the offence from crashing the net. Activities of that nature will exhaust a goaltender. You also had back in the day far heavier equipment along with face flush masks that didnt breathe which also contributed to exhaustion. Through the late 60's & into the 70's as the number of jobs opened up & quality plummeted somewhat goalies would get hurt, burned, shell shocked etc, hence the "platoons" of netminders.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Salaries and Other Factors From a 50 Year Perspective.

It's also related to salaries. Nowadays, you pay a top goaltender a lot of money, and you don't control his career for very long. Why wouldn't you play him as much as possible?

Was always related to salaries and other factors. Once the NHL went to the two goalie system followed by rapid expansion and the formation of the rival WHA the GMs figured out that they could keep goalie salaries down except for the true elite by arguing that playing 50-60% of the games or ice time was not worth a 100% salary.

Today the issue is length of contract and salary. See Roberto Luongo. Issue becomes moving the salary against what salaries project to over the remaining life of the contract.

 

[seventieslord]

... I wouldnt know. Dont pay attention to nor do I put a whole lot of stock in numbers. Much prefer Eyeball (and experience) to Moneyball.

Well, I agree that it "sounds" intuitively true but if it's so obvious then it would be easy to prove, and the way to prove that would be to look at the GP totals of goalies with big and small defensemen. To do so, one doesn't need to be obsessed with numbers, they just need to have common sense. If, as you say, goalies with big defensemen play more games, then it is easy to prove.

 

[Killion]

Well, I agree that it "sounds" intuitively true but if it's so obvious then it would be easy to prove, and the way to prove that would be to look at the GP totals of goalies with big and small defensemen. To do so, one doesn't need to be obsessed with numbers, they just need to have common sense. If, as you say, goalies with big defensemen play more games, then it is easy to prove.

As far as Im concerned, its already "proven". I dont need to waste time on my clock pouring over rosters, GP's, MINS, Shots faced, Save %'s, Injuries, Defensive Personnel & Pairings, then their stats; Forwards, Coaches, Salaries and all of the rest of the criteria & minutae involved, then base it on some junk formula to wind up exactly where Im at. But tell ya what 70's, if its "easy" to do that mathematically, go ahead & fill yer boots.

 

[seventieslord]

As far as Im concerned, its already "proven". I dont need to waste time on my clock pouring over rosters, GP's, MINS, Shots faced, Save %'s, Injuries, Defensive Personnel & Pairings, then their stats; Forwards, Coaches, Salaries and all of the rest of the criteria & minutae involved, then base it on some junk formula to wind up exactly where Im at. But tell ya what 70's, if its "easy" to do that mathematically, go ahead & fill yer boots.

all you need is games played... you don't need anything else.

and you can do it if you like.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Four Colour Map Problem

Well, I agree that it "sounds" intuitively true but if it's so obvious then it would be easy to prove, and the way to prove that would be to look at the GP totals of goalies with big and small defensemen. To do so, one doesn't need to be obsessed with numbers, they just need to have common sense. If, as you say, goalies with big defensemen play more games, then it is easy to prove.

An old math enigma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem

Are four colours sufficient to colour a map? The sufficiency question of 3 and 5 is rather easy to prove. Is the sufficiency of 4 easy to prove?

Your claim of obvious falls into the four colour dilemma because the various combinations of big to small relative to opposition size and goalie size quicky grows the number of considerations beyond the ability to process the information and reach a proof.

 

[seventieslord]

An old math enigma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem

Are four colours sufficient to colour a map? The sufficiency question of 3 and 5 is rather easy to prove. Is the sufficiency of 4 easy to prove?

Your claim of obvious falls into the four colour dilemma because the various combinations of big to small relative to opposition size and goalie size quicky grows the number of considerations beyond the ability to process the information and reach a proof.

three factors is all you'd need: average size of team defensemen, average size of players in the league that season, games played by starting goalie.