HOH Top Centers - Round 2 Voting Results

[Hawkey Town 18]

Because of the closeness of 4th and 5th place and the huge gap between 5th and 6th, the top 5 will be added to the list, with only 3 players being added in the final vote.

 

[MXD]

Vote 14 - Lists received from 18 out of 23 possible voters

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | None | Total Frank Fredrickson | 5 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 93
Mats Sundin | 3 | 2 | 2 | 6 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 90
Henrik Zetterberg | 2 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 88
Daryl Sittler | 0 | 3 | 6 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 78
Vaclav Nedomansky | 4 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 75
Duke Keats | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 5 | 45
Jacques Lemaire | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 9 | 41
Pat Lafontaine | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 9 | 37
Frank McGee | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 12 | 25
Frank Foyston | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 9 | 24
Joe Primeau | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 14 | 23
Henrik Sedin | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 10 | 20
Tommy Dunderdale | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 16 | 5
Bernie Morris | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 16 | 4

Duh.

If the game between 3 and 4 would have been slightly bigger, it could have been interesting to go with only 3 candidates.

And WTF Nedomansky... ?!?!?!

 

[tarheelhockey]

Wow, Nedomansky's ballot is striking. Voters either saw him as top-3 or marginal, no middle ground.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Because of the closeness of 4th and 5th place and the huge gap between 5th and 6th, the top 5 will be added to the list, with only 3 players being added in the final vote.

To add to this, 18 points between 1st and 5th, 30 points between 5th and 6th.

Each of the top 5 received support from 50%+ of voters.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Wow, Nedomansky's ballot is striking. Voters either saw him as top-3 or marginal, no middle ground.

Kind of like his contemporary Czech Jan Suchy in the defenseman project, but even more striking. I would have thought that Nedomansky's solid post-prime career in North America would have made him less controversial than Suchy, but it seems like he's even more controversial with this current group of voters.

 

[MXD]

Wow, Nedomansky's ballot is striking. Voters either saw him as top-3 or marginal, no middle ground.

To add to this, 18 points between 1st and 5th, 30 points between 5th and 6th.

Each of the top 5 received support from 50%+ of voters.

I would use another word starting by ST to describe Nedomansky ballot situation.

 

[seventieslord]

Nice to see Sundin pass Sittler... he deserved it. Lemaire that high is troubling.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Kind of like his contemporary Czech Jan Suchy in the defenseman project, but even more striking. I would have thought that Nedomansky's solid post-prime career in North America would have made him less controversial than Suchy, but it seems like he's even more controversial with this current group of voters.

The Czech league is certainly harder to pin down than the USSR at that time, and I would guess that the split opinion reflects current opinion on the meaningfulness of accomplishments there.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The Czech league is certainly harder to pin down than the USSR at that time, and I would guess that the split opinion reflects current opinion on the meaningfulness of accomplishments there.

So compare them on the international stage... whatever, it's over.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Troubling

Nice to see Sundin pass Sittler... he deserved it. Lemaire that high is troubling.

Nothing troubling. In fact outright disappointing given that Lemaire's performance was misrepresented by posters' claiming a Lafleur influence in his production. Jacques Lemaire was on a HHOF career pace before skating his first shift with Guy Lafleur.

 

[seventieslord]

Nothing troubling. In fact outright disappointing given that Lemaire's performance was misrepresented by posters' claiming a Lafleur influence in his production. Jacques Lemaire was on a HHOF career pace before skating his first shift with Guy Lafleur.

you know, I think you might be the first person to ever claim that a lesser player would score the same with or without his far superior linemate.

 

[Canadiens1958]

History

you know, I think you might be the first person to ever claim that a lesser player would score the same with or without his far superior linemate.

Lemaire's history is that he did just that. Two 90+ point seasons without Lafleur:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lemaija01.html

Third playing with Lafleur shows no significant difference from the without results. So it is not a claim as you allege but a recognition of fact.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Vote 14 - Lists received from 18 out of 23 possible voters

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | None | Total Frank Fredrickson | 5 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 93
Mats Sundin | 3 | 2 | 2 | 6 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 90
Henrik Zetterberg | 2 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 88
Daryl Sittler | 0 | 3 | 6 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 78
Vaclav Nedomansky | 4 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 75
Duke Keats | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 5 | 45
Jacques Lemaire | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 9 | 41
Pat Lafontaine | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 9 | 37
Frank McGee | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 12 | 25
Frank Foyston | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 9 | 24
Joe Primeau | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 14 | 23
Henrik Sedin | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 10 | 20
Tommy Dunderdale | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 16 | 5
Bernie Morris | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 16 | 4

Nedomansky with the oddest line yet. Guess it came down to who got fooled and who didn't.

Half of the voters felt neither Lafontaine nor Lemaire deserved to be in the top 8. Amazing.

Hart Trophy, Art Ross Trophy and two time first team all-star Henrik Sedin seems to be encountering the inner-Don Cherry of the voters.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Nedomansky with the oddest line yet. Guess it came down to who got fooled and who didn't.

Half of the voters felt neither Lafontaine nor Lemaire deserved to be in the top 8. Amazing.

Hart Trophy, Art Ross Trophy and two time first team all-star Henrik Sedin seems to be encountering the inner-Don Cherry of the voters.

Yeah, pretty interesting stuff. I guess Nedomansky's "significance" had to get him in some time soon. About Lafontaine, he's a tough one. I think he was a much better player than his resume ends up looking for the purposes of a project like this, despite how fantastic he was to watch. Coupled with definite perception of being very much a one-way guy who rarely got very far on that one-way street, it's hard for him to make up ground on the relative "substance" vs some of the other resumes. As for Lemaire... well... I'm a Habs fan who was born on May 14, 1977. Try to guess exactly how high I'd vote for him, lol. Some homerism would be revealed, let's put it that way.

Recent Sundin discussions got me thinking about some of the active Swedes as well, and my first inclination was to go Sundin > Sedin > Zetterberg, but I think Zetts deserves a lot of credit for his post-season resume, for sure. Hard to peg the active guys, and I wouldn't begrudge someone hedging their vote a bit in anticipation of what might be "expected" over the next few years ("on average" or whatever, because "career value" might add up to something, never know). They could flip-flop, or even pass Sundin by the time all is said and done, who knows. In terms of "players in a vacuum", though, it's still Sundin for sure in my mind.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 15 - Lists received from 17 out of 23 possible voters

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | None | Total Duke Keats | 8 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 91
Jacques Lemaire | 2 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 83
Pat Lafontaine | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 53
Jeremy Roenick | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 53
Frank Foyston | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 6 | 47
Henrik Sedin | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 7 | 43
Neil Colville | 0 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 42
Joe Primeau | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 8 | 34
Steven Stamkos | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 10 | 29
Frank McGee | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 12 | 22
Pierre Turgeon | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 10 | 22
Milan Novy | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 10 | 20
Bernie Morris | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 13 | 18
Guy Carbonneau | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 11 | 14
Tommy Dunderdale | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 14 | 11
Rod Brind'Amour | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 12 | 9
Joe Nieuwendyk | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 15 | 8
Slava Starshinov | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 15 | 8
Bernie Federko | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 16 | 5

 

[MXD]

Vote 15 - Lists received from 17 out of 23 possible voters

Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | None | Total Duke Keats | 8 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 91
Jacques Lemaire | 2 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 83
Pat Lafontaine | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 53
Jeremy Roenick | 1 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 53
Frank Foyston | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 6 | 47
Henrik Sedin | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 7 | 43
Neil Colville | 0 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 42
Joe Primeau | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 8 | 34
Steven Stamkos | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 10 | 29
Frank McGee | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 12 | 22
Pierre Turgeon | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 10 | 22
Milan Novy | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 10 | 20
Bernie Morris | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 13 | 18
Guy Carbonneau | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 11 | 14
Tommy Dunderdale | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 14 | 11
Rod Brind'Amour | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 12 | 9
Joe Nieuwendyk | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 15 | 8
Slava Starshinov | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 15 | 8
Bernie Federko | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 16 | 5

LOL...

Okay, we have a near-perfect tie for 60th (that i knew).

What I didn't know is how FAR behind Keats and Lemaire those two were. If anything, an argument can be made that, from the current panel, there could be a vote between the remaining candidate for the lone 60th spot and it could belong to anybody between Lafontaine and Colville....

Is Joe Primeau the biggest "faller" ? I was extremely critical of him at first, but I'm kindof suprised to see that nearly half the posters think he's not a Top-65 Center of all time, with quite a few possibly having him below the 70 mark. I think the panel was right in considering him a lesser player than Neil Colville, but 8 having Primeau out, to me, is a bit surprising. Or is it?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yup. Tied for 60th and 61st on our top 60 list. The tiebreaker is tied too since one voter had neither on his list.

Keats and Lemaire are definitely in.

My idea? Have a short round 16 with only Lafontaine, Roenick, Foyston, Sedin, and Colville available, rank 1-5, winner takes 60th. Open to other suggestions

 

[Canadiens1958]

Live With the Tie

Yup. Tied for 60th and 61st on our top 60 list. The tiebreaker is tied too since one voter had neither on his list.

Keats and Lemaire are definitely in.

My idea? Have a short round 16 with only Lafontaine, Roenick, Foyston, Sedin, and Colville available, rank 1-5, winner takes 60th. Open to other suggestions

Live with the tie. Note in the results to this effect.

After a marathon produces a tie for 60th spot no purpose to running a mile race throwing in extra participants to the mix since there is no guarantee that an actual winner will be produced.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

And this is why we should have tiebreakers

 

[MXD]

Yup. Tied for 60th and 61st on our top 60 list. The tiebreaker is tied too since one voter had neither on his list.

Keats and Lemaire are definitely in.

My idea? Have a short round 16 with only Lafontaine, Roenick, Foyston, Sedin, and Colville available, rank 1-5, winner takes 60th. Open to other suggestions

If you take out ALL votes for Lemaire and Keats...

(but then people having, say, Roenick unofficial 9th and, say, Foyston unofficial 12 kindof end up having absolutely no word on the process).

(Disclaimer : Personally, I had all those guys in my top-8, save for Roenick).

 

[MXD]

And this is why we should have tiebreakers

That'S thing. With the tiebreaker procedure proposed... Well, Lafontaine and Roenick were STILL tied.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'd be fine leaving a tie for 60th if there was something of a consensus. But 53 points is far from a consensus with 17 voters. Basically an average of 6th place.

Every other add had at least 70 points in the round he was added

 

[Canadiens1958]

Diluted Points

I'd be fine leaving a tie for 60th if there was something of a consensus. But 53 points is far from a consensus with 17 voters. Basically an average of 6th place.

Every other add had at least 70 points in the round he was added

Diluted points resulted by extending the vote to 19 players considered instead of 12. So the distribution of points is increased by ~58.3%. Tet the two players are only ~ 24.3% short of the 70 bench mark that suddenly surfaces.

Average of 6th out of 19 adjusts to 4th out of 12 comfortably given the extra 19th participant.

 

[MXD]

Diluted points resulted by extending the vote to 19 players considered instead of 12. So the distribution of points is increased by ~58.3%. Tet the two players are only ~ 24.3% short of the 70 bench mark that suddenly surfaces.

Average of 6th out of 19 adjusts to 4th out of 12 comfortably given the extra 19th participant.

Don't want to nitpick, but a few players received no more than marginal support. Mainly the single digits one. Bernie Federko received support from ONE voter, which basically means he'S in the margin of error for no support at all.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

LOL...

Okay, we have a near-perfect tie for 60th (that i knew).

What I didn't know is how FAR behind Keats and Lemaire those two were. If anything, an argument can be made that, from the current panel, there could be a vote between the remaining candidate for the lone 60th spot and it could belong to anybody between Lafontaine and Colville....

Is Joe Primeau the biggest "faller" ? I was extremely critical of him at first, but I'm kindof suprised to see that nearly half the posters think he's not a Top-65 Center of all time, with quite a few possibly having him below the 70 mark. I think the panel was right in considering him a lesser player than Neil Colville, but 8 having Primeau out, to me, is a bit surprising. Or is it?

Primeau wasn't in my top 70 originally. Didn't vote for him here.