HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All Time

[Hardyvan123]

It is not relavent how close that Gadsby was to Harvey & Kelly since everyone in this round is far below those guys. Our difference was your downplaying Gadsby's defensive skills because he played most of his career on bad teams. Not his fault. & should not be a factor. Nough said

This is true but there are at least 4 guys closer to those 2 guys than Gadsby and probably a couple more as well team situation aside.

 

[MXD]

What are the odds Gonchar lands on this list?

To be fair...
Gonchar SHOULD have been in my Top-80, but I basically omitted him.

But the Top-60?... Not sure.

To give you an idea... Guy #60 in my list was Rob Blake, and I do think Gonchar compares really badly to Blake.

 

[MXD]

This is true but there are at least 4 guys closer to those 2 guys than Gadsby and probably a couple more as well team situation aside.

...Obviously. I mean... I just don't think it was the point.

Gadbsy is a new-entry in the round.
The rule is : A new-entry usually has to wait a round.

 

[Hardyvan123]

...Obviously. I mean... I just don't think it was the point.

Gadbsy is a new-entry in the round.
The rule is : A new-entry usually has to wait a round.

You would think so but unless I got it wrong someone is pushing for him being possibly number 1 in this round.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You would think so but unless I got it wrong someone is pushing for him being possibly number 1 in this round.

There will probably be rounds in the future where I will give a new addition my top vote.

There's a reason this is a two-step process.

 

[Hardyvan123]

There will probably be rounds in the future where I will give a new addition my top vote.

There's a reason this is a two-step process.

This might happen with me as I'm treating each round on it's own merits and not referring back to my original list.

Of course I have my own ideas on things and look critically at each round but I'm open minded and read all the posts and look forward to the different perspectives given, even the ones I do not agree with, hopefully all are doing the same.

 

[pappyline]

...Obviously. I mean... I just don't think it was the point.

Gadbsy is a new-entry in the round.
The rule is : A new-entry usually has to wait a round.

Maybe your rule but NOT A RULE. You must have had a real problem in vote #1. there was nobody you could vote for.

Every player up every round should be considered. Otherwise, why even add new guys.

BTW, I believe you were part of the HOH top 100 project where Gadsby was quite easily a top 20 guy ahead of several others up for vote here. What has changed since then? Nothing, other than fewer and different voters in this project

 

[MXD]

Ehh...
Geez.

Sortof a rule. It's perfectly logical that a new entry has to wait at least one round (I had Seibert, Clegorne Top-5 last round).

 

[JSBach]

I think Nick is suffering from European syndrome in this one. Shame.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think Nick is suffering from European syndrome in this one. Shame.

Nick who?

 

[seventieslord]

He means Lidstrom.

 

[Hardyvan123]

He means Lidstrom.

I kinda figured that but he could have been more explicit.

Also it's unlikely that his being Swedish affected him, a Canadian player playing the same subtle way might have gone unnoticed early in their careers as well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Canadian Players

I kinda figured that but he could have been more explicit.

Also it's unlikely that his being Swedish affected him, a Canadian player playing the same subtle way might have gone unnoticed early in their careers as well.

Bill Quackenbush, Red Kelly, J.C. Tremblay were all Canadiens players whose style was identical to Nick Lidstrom and they were recognized and honoured accordingly based on their performance very early in their careers.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Bill Quackenbush, Red Kelly, J.C. Tremblay were all Canadiens players whose style was identical to Nick Lidstrom and they were recognized and honoured accordingly based on their performance very early in their careers.

Calder finish
Lidstrom 2nd (Bure)
Kelly 3rd (McFadden, Babando)
Tremblay T-12th (Keon, Nevin, Glover, Odrowski, Johnson, Johns, Fleming, Gamble, G. Tremblay, Young, Smith, T-Hannigan)
Quackenbush - No votes

Lidstrom was recognized and honored accordingly based on his performance in his early career. Contrary to what some believe, he did not spring from the womb as a fully-formed Norris contender.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is there a better website than azhockey.com to find out a historical player's jersey number for the original post?

I gave Pronger #44, which is what he wore in Hartford, St. Louis, and Edmonton, even though he's worn different numbers in Anaheim and Philly.

 

[Hobnobs]

Calder finish
Lidstrom 2nd (Bure)
Kelly 3rd (McFadden, Babando)
Tremblay T-12th (Keon, Nevin, Glover, Odrowski, Johnson, Johns, Fleming, Gamble, G. Tremblay, Young, Smith, T-Hannigan)
Quackenbush - No votes

Lidstrom was recognized and honored accordingly based on his performance in his early career. Contrary to what some believe, he did not spring from the womb as a fully-formed Norris contender.

It wasnt exactly because of defense that place Lidström on the ballots during his rookie year. Just saying.

Besides this rankings seems very canadian biased. Where is Salming for example? No way he should be ranked behind Pronger.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It wasnt exactly because of defense that place Lidström on the ballots during his rookie year. Just saying.

Besides this rankings seems very canadian biased. Where is Salming for example? No way he should be ranked behind Pronger.

Why do you say that? Pronger at his best was definitely better than Salming at his best. And while Salming shouldn't be criticized for not doing anything in the playoffs with a sad sack Leafs team, it's no reason not to credit Pronger with multiple dominant postseason performances.

 

[Hobnobs]

Why do you say that? Pronger at his best was definitely better than Salming at his best. And while Salming shouldn't be criticized for not doing anything in the playoffs with a sad sack Leafs team, it's no reason not to credit Pronger with multiple dominant postseason performances.

He was dominant in one playoffs and great in three and usually were great until the finals. Timonen was better than him against the hawks for example and Pronger wasnt the game breaker for the Ducks (the fact that he got to play after the hit on McAmmond is beyond me).

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Wasn't a game-breaker? That suspension was the only thing preventing him from winning the Conn Smythe in 2007. He was certainly more effective than Niedermayer.

 

[Hobnobs]

Wasn't a game-breaker? That suspension was the only thing preventing him from winning the Conn Smythe in 2007. He was certainly more effective than Niedermayer.

Ok if we give him that playoff too. Salming has an international resume thats even better. Hes on the all-time iihf team ffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ok if we give him that playoff too. Salming has an international resume thats even better. Hes on the all-time iihf team ffs.

The team where a large number of voters didn't vote for Gretzky as the center?

 

[Hobnobs]

The team where a large number of voters didn't vote for Gretzky as the center?

What are you talking about? Gretzky scored the most votes of any player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What are you talking about? Gretzky scored the most votes of any player.

All this from wikipedia, but it's sourced:

The IIHF Centennial All-Star Team is an all-star team of hockey players from international ice hockey tournaments. The selection was organized by the International Ice Hockey Federation and named in 2008. The panel comprised 56 ice hockey experts from 16 countries representing a balance between North American and European countries, and included people who have worked in the game for an extended period and whose opinions are widely respected. One of the 56 votes represented the collective opinion of the staff of The Hockey News. Five of the six players (all except Sergei Makarov) are enshrined in the Hockey Hall of Fame in Canada, and were enshrined at the time of the list. Four of the players (Gretzky and Salming being the exceptions) played for CSKA Moscow. None of the voter's selections as a whole were the same as the final team.

* Goaltender: Vladislav Tretiak (Soviet Union) - 30 Votes.
* First defenceman: Vyacheslav Fetisov (Soviet Union) - 54 votes.
* Second defenceman: Börje Salming (Sweden) - 17 Votes.
* First winger: Valeri Kharlamov (Soviet Union) - 21 Votes.
* Second winger: Sergei Makarov (Soviet Union) - 18 Votes.
* Centre: Wayne Gretzky (Canada) - 38 Votes.

Looks like 38/56 voters voted for Gretzky, while 18 did not vote for Gretzky. Only Fetisov approached being a consensus candidate with 54/56 voters selecting him.

I really don't see how the fact that Salming got 17 out of 56 votes on a particular list where 18 voters omit Gretzky means he should be thought of more highly than Pronger on a list based on their entire careers.

The only possible explanation for omitting Gretzky is that those voters based the list strictly off IIHF tournaments, which do not include the Canada Cups. But how many IIHF tournaments did Pronger play in? He was generally too busy playing in the NHL playoffs to play in the World Championships.

 

[Hobnobs]

All this from wikipedia, but it's sourced:





Looks like 38/56 voters voted for Gretzky, while 18 did not vote for Gretzky. Only Fetisov approached being a consensus candidate with 54/56 voters selecting him.

I really don't see how the fact that Salming got 17 out of 56 votes on a particular list where 18 voters omit Gretzky means he should be thought of more highly than Pronger on a list based on their entire careers.

The only possible explanation for omitting Gretzky is that those voters based the list strictly off IIHF tournaments, which do not include the Canada Cups. But how many IIHF tournaments did Pronger play in? He was generally too busy playing in the NHL playoffs to play in the World Championships.

I said that Salming has a more accomplished international career not that this list should be basis for all of it. They were also voted by position. Gretzky recieved 38 votes for the centre position which was 35 more than anyone else.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I said that Salming has a more accomplished international career not that this list should be basis for all of it. They were also voted by position. Gretzky recieved 38 votes for the centre position which was 35 more than anyone else.

This conversation started when you said "no way should Salming be ranked below Pronger."

As for the bolded, do you have a list of the full voting results for the IIHF team? I'd love to see them.